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Help Wanted needs YOUR help!

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Poll: Help Wanted needs YOUR help! (117 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think the "Help Wanted Rules, Guidelines & FAQ should be duplicated as a pinned topic?

  1. Yes, it's not visible enough! (70 votes [59.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 59.83%

  2. No, it's fine where it is. (40 votes [34.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.19%

  3. No, but it should be REPLACED by a pinned topic. (7 votes [5.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.98%

Are you happy with our current "bumping" rules? (See the Rules, Guidelines & FAQ)

  1. Yes. (65 votes [41.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.67%

  2. No. (15 votes [9.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.62%

  3. Users should be allowed more bumps. (31 votes [19.87%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.87%

  4. Users should be allowed less bumps. (9 votes [5.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.77%

  5. Bumping should be allowed more often. (25 votes [16.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.03%

  6. Bumping should be allowed less often. (11 votes [7.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.05%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19366

Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:43 AM

We've had a bit of a bumpy start moving over to the new forums, but with things starting to settle in I feel it's time to update the help and information available to our members as well as review the rules in place in this forum.

Firstly, I am in the process of re-writing the ** READ BEFORE POSTING ** topic to remove any old or irrelevant information and to correctly match the new forum software; the current version should be usable for now, but we'll have a completely new version within the next couple of days. We also have the new Help Wanted Rules, Guidelines & FAQ (accessible above the topic listing) which replaces the forum faq from the old software; everything in that page should be current and up-to-date, but there is still more to be added.

So, how can you help?

I'm looking for feedback -- as much as you're willing to give! Answering the two poll questions at the beginning of this topic is a great start, but I'd also love feedback on the rest of the rules, the required template, the information available in the Rules, Guidelines & FAQ, and anything else you would like to make suggestions on.

I'm also planning on adding an actual FAQ section to the Rules, Guidelines & FAQ, in a traditional questions and answers layout -- your suggested questions and answers are both welcome and encouraged!

Thanks in advance, and good luck with all your current projects!


#2 Starman01   Members   -  Reputation: 100

Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:47 PM

Just came by and stumpled over that thread :) I voted "Yes, it' s not visible enough", because after reading the initial post, I really had to search it first :) Duplicate as pinned topic would be a nice addition.

Also, since I intend to bump my thread in a few days, i think your bumping rules are more or less ok. There is much going on in this board, and the post quickly wanders to page 2 and below. So if bumping with additional content is ok, go for it.

Just my 2 cents.

#3 BronzeBeard   Members   -  Reputation: 160

Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:00 PM

I think that the RULES/FAQ's need to be more visible.. Hell I think anyone with under X number of post(or X numbers of days registered) should be automatically forwarded to the rules page when they click on Help Wanted. (And somewhere in the rules will be a link to the actual help wanted page)

I personally have no problem with the bumping rules, however I do believe help wanted needs to be much better organized. MMO's and freelancers should be given their own subforum. Premium projects (such as GDNet+ projects or projects that have shown to be serious) should be boosted and highlighted....

Maybe even sort by the rating system....

Organization will keep good projects from getting lost, as well allow people to continue to try to squeeze help out....

~Sorry for grammar and spelling.... mindless drivel night.

#4 Timothy_Jones   Validating   -  Reputation: 88

Posted 23 May 2011 - 02:19 AM

Just a suggestion regarding the rules / forum structure related to "help wanted" ads. I post it here to be visible by those who visit this section and as I see no proper related forum but if there is could a mod move my post there?

I highly recommend separating the "help wanted" and "help available" sections from eachother. No need to add additional top level subforum for it as that would be an overkill, you may just create a subforum inside "help wanted".

Why I suggest this is because useful talent gets pushed back from the first page quickly making it difficult to recognioze, while if they bump frequently they push back dev team posts, this combined with the bump abusing violators really harms the mature projects, and also is bad for those offering their services. Also easy to recognize that it is more difficult to see help available ads when they are mixed with help wanted ones, while if suchs posts would be organized under a separate subforum then every time a new help available ad would be posted it would be seen, clearly, distinctively, without interrupting or being mixed amongst dozens of other ads, and especially would not disappear so quickly from the first page for the simple fact it is much more rare that help available ads are posted than help wanted ones, which also means conveniance for those offering their services as they may not even need to care to manage their ads (by bumping them) as the ads would not get out from the first page for weeks or even an entire month.

#5 forsandifs   Members   -  Reputation: 154

Posted 23 May 2011 - 02:55 AM

I agree with the notion of dividing the posts into sections. This will increase the exposure for every post.

A way to divide it might be "help wanted" and "help available" as already suggested.

#6 Timothy_Jones   Validating   -  Reputation: 88

Posted 23 May 2011 - 03:09 AM

A way to divide it might be "help wanted" and "help needed" as already suggested.

Just a note: I have suggested "help wanted" and "help available", the first is for the top level subforum as currently and for those looking to form a team or recruit new members, the later as a subforum of help wanted and is for those who want to offer their services.

You say help wanted and help needed which is the same thing, so instead of help needed there should be "help available".

#7 ryan20fun   Members   -  Reputation: 1101

Posted 23 May 2011 - 03:46 AM

i dont mean to be stupid or something, but i cant find the See the Rules, Guidelines & FAQ post, ive searched and hunted around and i cant find it :(
am i missing something ?
Never say Never, Because Never comes too soon. - ryan20fun

Disclaimer: Each post of mine is intended as an attempt of helping and/or bringing some meaningfull insight to the topic at hand. Due to my nature, my good intentions will not always be plainly visible. I apologise in advance and assure you I mean no harm and do not intend to insult anyone.

#8 Mussi   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2099

Posted 23 May 2011 - 05:49 AM

"Bumping" is when someone posts specifically to bring a topic back to the top of the listing -- often without adding any additional content.

If you are adding additional content you may do so by editing your original post; do not make a new post in this case.

It's hard to notice an edited post once you've seen a topic once, it goes even more unnoticed when the topic has multiple pages. I do think that all content should be put in the first post, but I think users should be allowed to bump their topic informing people about the new content that's been added(besides the normal bumping rules).

You may at any time post to say all positions are filled and you are no-longer recruiting.

Users should be allowed to post when A position has been filled, as to stop wasting other people's time.

#9 forsandifs   Members   -  Reputation: 154

Posted 23 May 2011 - 01:21 PM

A way to divide it might be "help wanted" and "help needed" as already suggested.

Just a note: I have suggested "help wanted" and "help available", the first is for the top level subforum as currently and for those looking to form a team or recruit new members, the later as a subforum of help wanted and is for those who want to offer their services.

You say help wanted and help needed which is the same thing, so instead of help needed there should be "help available".

I'm sorry, teaches me for posting when I'm half asleep. I meant "help available". I've been feeling dizzy and drowsy all day actually. I'll edit accordingly.

#10 Roots   Members   -  Reputation: 727

Posted 24 May 2011 - 11:18 PM

I wanted to add that I think two weeks is far too long of a period between bumps. I think one week is a more reasonable period. In fact, I think it may be even better to stop trying to observed a fixed period of time and instead allow people to bump their thraeds once it is no longer on the first page. Threads that are not on the first page are almost never seen, and I don't think there's that many active threads on the forum that it would be a constant "bump war" either.
Hero of Allacrost --- http://www.allacrost.org
A free, open-source 2D RPG in development.

Latest release Oct. 10th, 2010.

#11 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19366

Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:27 PM

Alright, thanks for the feedback so far, I'm going to make some decisions and proceed with making some changes and properly updating the rules and FAQ -- I'll advise in this topic as decisions are made.

I'll get further feedback on the idea of adding a sub (or second)-forum for "Help Available", as it's a suggestion that has come up regularly, but I'm not sure it's something the site staff want to add.

i dont mean to be stupid or something, but i cant find the See the Rules, Guidelines & FAQ post, ive searched and hunted around and i cant find it :(
am i missing something ?

It's above the topic listing, but below the announcement (which in turn is right underneath the dropdown menus). Or, click here. A lot of people seem not to notice it, so I'm going to duplicate it as a pinned topic.

I'm also looking into the option of a jQuery popup mentioning the template and rules, which would only appear on a user's first visit; this may or may not currently be technically feasible though, but if not I'll see if I can have it added to the queue of development efforts to be considered down the track.

#12 Timothy_Jones   Validating   -  Reputation: 88

Posted 28 May 2011 - 02:13 AM

Another suggestion (more like a recommendation). I think this was brought up in some related help wanted ad topics so especially because of that (as it is supported by others) I would highly, highly recommend to have a minimum quality requirement regarding help wanted ads. No I am not writing about grammar / aesthetics, more like quality of the project / person.

To not hurt anyone (although with their attitude they do not deserve such treatment) I will not post links to ads but if jbadams requests it I can link such topics.

There are so many team leaders / project leads / help offering person with obviously failing attitude and lack of skills that it is rediculous. What is outraging is due to providing feedback the topic gets on top of the first page and mature projects who also act according to rules are pushed behind. This is especially unacceptable as most cases those useful feedback and suggestions are rejected by the person, which results in more suggestions / convincing, which in the end result in complete resistance, well not always but often, further effecting the first page because of pointless reasons. Lets face it, such people are trolls, even if they are blind to see their incompetence or not.

(Just to avoid such conspiracy theories: It is not about ads posted by me as I already reporting bump abuse since a long time even when it does not effect my ads, and also posted another suggestion recently earlier than my latest help wanted ad, so it is nothing for personal gain at all).

Same applies to some "projects" which are obvious to see will never get off the ground, not to mention ever arrive to their destination. Or what about those "projects" with such poor quality concept art and other content, or even ideas which are, well, be frank, hilarious when you experience them. Even a simple game needs quality content to be successful. And yes I am aware of simple graphics style / retro style games or ones that are successful without "shiny grafixTM" but those are either exceptions or are played because they have those features deliberately in a coherent professional manner, so even those prove that simpe =/= poor quality.

All this happens since a long time and frequently, while mature, serious and dedicated (may them be pro or "amateur") get pushed out from the first page because of the unserious, arrogant, lazy and full of themselves to adapt people (both help wanted and help offering ones), which to me is great injustice and should not be accepted.

On a sidenote about arrogance:

Or what about that recent thread in which the guy was warned to not bump his
thread and in his arrogance the person still posted a reply saying "okie dokie I
will not post in the future", which clearly is another camouflaged bump

Or what about those bumps whentwo people (may them be officially
associated with the project or not) start a chitchat about the project like A:
"hey cool stuff bro bla bla" B: "yeah thanks, bla bla" A: "bla bla bla" and even
a child would recognize this is a camouflaged bump. Don't get me wrong I myself
sometimes state a project is cool especially to bump it when it deserves more
attention, like if I see a serious project which seems have the potential to
meet its goals I obviously support it and state it is "cool" or express myself
in a more professional manner to let others know about this fact and consider
joining it. But this is not the same as chitchat and such.

Same for stating "PM / mail sent" then replying "okay received / I will reply soon". And
quite outrageous when the original person even replies again. Again I do not
mind if someone states he sent a PM / mail especially if does to let others know
about a good project but aside of that and for generic chitchat: isnt this what the PM system is for?

Or what about those chitchats in the help wanted ads which are about organizing the
development? The ad is to post your offered service (as an offerer) or ask for
help / team assembly, not to organize the project, that is what an own website
is for. I know it is a "good" (is it?!) reason to bump an ad but seriously? Why
is this tolerated?

Maybe this seems as a crusade and maybe it is but since a long time observing this and I really feel sorry for those projects which are mature (and obey the rules) and still get hammered by the incompetent, unserious, arrogant people and "projects".

So I suggest:

- A quality based system to judge project and help offer ads (and delete / move them off from help wanted as needed... read details and reason below).
- A more strict moderation rule
---- Preferably with zero tolerance
---- And instead of warnings only, using punishment of topic deleted / moved away from help wanted (so other ads can move back up as violator topics push them behind even if were warned or even closed, they still are there, pushing rule obeying ads below, which is outrageous)

Final note: Don't take this as an offense, it is just about what is correct, fair and just and what is not, nothing personal. Also this is just a suggestion, I am not intended to enforce my will on the moderators, so do not take it as such, it is just a suggestion to re-establish justice for mature people and teams (and treating violators, abusers and deliberately rule breaking people the way they deserve).

#13 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19366

Posted 28 May 2011 - 03:16 AM

Just a brief reply to a couple of points:

I understand where you're coming from, and I would love to allow bumping of topics when they fall off the front page -- unfortunately, such a rule would not be properly enforceable, as once a topic has been bumped we are unable to see it's previous position in the forum to verify whether it had fallen off the first page or if the person was breaking our rules. I am however considering lowering the 14 day period between allowed bumps to 10 days -- not quite as short as a week, but perhaps more reasonable than the current allowance. I'm also going to be putting effort into making sure the bumping rules are more strictly enforced.

I'm planning to enact some adjustments to the rules in Help Wanted over the next week or two that I think you might like.
I'm also proposing a couple of additional features or tweaks to the software that you would probably appreciate, although obviously it will be up to the staff whether and when those changes could happen.

#14 rosegold   Members   -  Reputation: 117

Posted 28 May 2011 - 08:15 AM

The issue I have is the time it takes for a post to go up on the help wanted forums. I posted a very intense offerer post 2 days ago and it's still not up? How often does someone check? I think we need to either smooth that out or get rid of it.

#15 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19366

Posted 28 May 2011 - 11:44 AM

I posted a very intense offerer post 2 days ago and it's still not up? How often does someone check? I think we need to either smooth that out or get rid of it.

The most recent topic posted by your profile is [Offered] Professional 2D Art. It was originally posted around 23 hours ago (the posting time is displayed in the original post of the topic -- anyone is free to check up on it), and was approved for display in the forum around 12 hours ago, and is currently visible in the forum (follow the link -- if you can access it, it's obviously visible to regular members).

I don't know about your part of the world, but where I live 23 hours isn't even close to "2 days ago", and a post that is already visible isn't even close to qualifying for "still not up".'

I try to check in on Help Wanted at least once a day; usually I get to it more often (at least twice daily), but occasionally the wait stretches out to 2 days. I do NOT appreciate being called out on a long wait by users who have not actually been subjected to one though: please check your facts before making such a claim in future, as the ONLY truthful part of the post I'm replying to is the pact that you posted a topic; it was posted 1 day ago rather than the two that you claim, and had been visible for a good 6 hours or so rather than not yet being approved as you claim.
Posted Image

#16 rosegold   Members   -  Reputation: 117

Posted 28 May 2011 - 01:48 PM

I apologize for the time frame; I did notice it early early this morning. However, I do still think that the system is shaky. I posted something up a few months back, and I kept checking and I am not even sure if it was ever posted because I never saw it. When you're busy, it's hard to keep deal with continuously coming back to see if the post even got up. My email is spammed enough without adding notifications, and while I don't post avidly all over all the forums, this forum is very useful to me and I've definitely slowed down on coming here at all since that delay just because it's much too easy to get caught up in work if you're one of the people that actually does it instead of pointless babble on a thread.

#17 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19366

Posted 28 May 2011 - 09:56 PM

No worries, and sorry for going off on a rant at you -- you got me coming home from a bad evening. The system definitely could use some streamlining.

#18 Mussi   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2099

Posted 30 May 2011 - 06:07 PM

I think threads that provide little to no information shouldn't be allowed. The mandatory template doesn't seem to be enough, all too often I see help requests that filled out the template with barely any useful information. I'm not sure what the necessary changes would be, but right now some of the help requests just baffle me :blink:.

#19 Mariachi   Members   -  Reputation: 176

Posted 13 August 2011 - 09:25 AM

Can we have an "idea guy" rule?

It's not as absurd as you think - at the moment, we have six threads on the front page with nothing but people with no skills looking for individuals to piece their (MMORTSFPSTD) project together for them for free. Good and promising projects on the other hand, of which there are many as well, get buried under the ensuing discussions (which are always the same), and vanish into nothingness. Heroes of Allacrost, I'm looking at you.

It wouldn't have to be a draconian "you can't post if..." thing, just a small change to the mandatory posting template. Personally, "Team structure" is always the first bullet I check out, and ideally people should be clear there. So how about this:

  • "Team structure" in compulsory list format, in big bold font, because some people still try to skip around it. That way, we shouldn't have to wade through a whole paragraph of text tattering around the fact that yes, "Bloodmoney Masskiller Genocide Games Productions Studios" is indeed only a single guy.
  • Offer a few flexible, but standardized roles to attach to said bullet points. "2D Graphics", "designer", "writer", "composer". This naturally seems quite absurd at first, as any sane person will do that anyway, but there could be a requirement of showing proof of ability in that respective category. That way, you just check the list, see no finished design or writing pieces, and know where you stand.
It's just a suggestion, but I wanted to submit it for consideration anyway because my jimmies are in a state of rustlement.

(And if there should ever be a motion to actually implement a "no idea guys" rule, I'll be the first to sign.)

my 2D art!

~ Does your game win the Indie Project Bingo? Click to find out! ~

#20 DarklyDreaming   Members   -  Reputation: 366

Posted 13 August 2011 - 09:39 AM

I know you guys are swamped, but what Help Wanted really needs is an enforced template - a form to fill through - that carries a standard formatting that everyone will use. That will make wadding through the crap a lot easier - right now it's unfeasible to look for anything worthwhile without a lot of time and effort. Until then I don't really think much can be done. Also, +1 on no-idea-guys-allowed :)
"I will personally burn everything I've made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."
~ Gabe

"I don't mean to rush you but you are keeping two civilizations waiting!"
~ Cavil, BSG.
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~ Bregma

"Well, you're not alone.

There's a club for people like that. It's called Everybody and we meet at the bar."

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