Games as Fine Art,
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Posted 03 January 2000 - 05:24 PM
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Posted 03 January 2000 - 08:31 PM
He's just wondering if there's something more. So am I, for that matter.
The source of the misunderstanding, I think, is that Mr. Werckle isn't really talking about games when he coins the term "art game." He's talking about interactive multimedia software, and although games fall under that category so do many other kinds of software.
Andrew Rollings and Dave Morris talk about the need to make all entertainment software into games in their book _Game_Architecture_and_Design_. They challenge the assumption that everything has to be some sort of contest, either between the human and computer or between two or more humans with the computer as mediator. They themselves say it best:
"Games are something that computers can do very well. It is not the only thing - interactivity is what computers are good at, and although games are interactive, so are many other things - and that includes many things that nobody has used the computer to do yet."
I think you really hit it on the head when you say "if something is to be appreciated, it must be appreciated for what it is and what it is alone." This implies to me that you think that games can never be enjoyable if someone tries to "elevate" them into some artsy fartsy level. Once you do that, you don't have a game anymore, you have a piece of art. I agree wholeheartedly.
I think if someone is going to make ENTERTAINMENT SOFTWARE that is more artistic than your average game, it won't be a game at all but something altogether new. It WON'T be for everyone - I suspect hard core gamers would be particularly adverse to this sort of thing - but it might be really damn cool.
Edited by - meeper on 1/4/00 2:33:42 AM
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Posted 03 January 2000 - 10:41 PM
IMO, this is what often leads to games that are more fun for the designer than they are for the players. GADA gave a great example of this in Deathrap Dungeon where the designer was trying to make traps deliberately to kill the player that the player couldnt get out of. The designer was having the fun here, not the player.
I think this is often the same mentality of the "artist game designer", they want the game to be more about them, instead of seeing themselves as selling services to the player, who is the client, and is paying to be entertained and challenged.
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Posted 20 January 2000 - 01:00 AM
Personally I already think of some of the well-made games as ''artish''. Take Fallout & Blade Runner for instance. Both were really fun to play, very immensive and had great graphics, sound and atmosphere. Art. Just in another form.
I don''t feel that semantics should stop us dead in our tracks to create games that take gaming to another level, be it by greater immersion, prettier graphics, finer music or a completely new concept.
There will be a point where a game is not a game anymore, but alot of art can fit before reaching that point, Shakespeare said it best; Does a Rose by another name not smell as sweet?
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Posted 20 January 2000 - 02:40 AM
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Posted 20 January 2000 - 02:21 PM
RPG - you create an interesting story, based on certain events in, say, European history, or bible, back it up with wonderful graphics, and interesting gameplay. U got urself a great game. Story(art) + Graphics(art) + etc. = Game(art).
Why can''t games be art? I don''t get it.
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Posted 21 January 2000 - 03:34 AM
Pearl Jam is art. Even Rage Against the Machine is Art. Tchaikovsky (hope I got the spelling) is art. Monet is art. Tolstoy is art. Tolkien is art. Kubrick might indeed be art.
Is Baldur''s Gate art?
I don''t want to argue about specific games, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and those that don''t like something will rarely recognise that something as a work of art. But I have to agree that the bringing together of stories and music and pictures into an interactive experience surely must amount to a style/form of art.
The ability to then breathe life into these combinations and make a form that a person can actually interact with and respond to is in itself an art form that transcends even the greatest of it''s individual components.
If you say designers have a ''talent'' no-one seems to have a problem with that description. But ''artist'' seems to adhere strictly to the visual in many peoples minds.
Games are a wonderful combination of a whole range of art forms (at least the good ones are).
**Woop''s note: I actually started off thinking games were not really ''art''. But thinking about these things a while can be a most enlightening experience!
Enjoy your day!
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Posted 21 January 2000 - 05:09 AM
My own $0.02 -
A good game - just like a piece of art - is entertaining. It doesn't have to be fun. That may seem strange, but consider this - there are many movies which are not very much FUN to sit through. Examples: Shindler's List, Saving Private Ryan, and most recently, Boys Don't Cry.
These movies were not fun to watch - I doubt anyone came out of Ryan and said "hey, that was really fun, let's go watch that again!" But they were very entertaining.
The dictionary (www.m-w.com) defines entertainment as "something diverting or engaging." There's no mention of fun in there - to be entertaining, all you have to do is divert and engage the audience. No-one said it had to be a fun experience.
Most games don't realize this. Most game designers - and movie makers, for that matter - think that "entertainment" means "fun." It does not.
It will be a great day when someone releases a game that completely entertains me, but in a non-fun way.
It certainly won't be easy to make something like that - as meeper said, we've latched onto this "game as contest" idea - but if it happens, I think (err, hope) everyone would consider it art.
Spin Studios - home of Quaternion, 2000 GDC Indie Games Fest Finalist!
Edited by - mason on 1/21/00 11:16:57 AM
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Posted 21 January 2000 - 09:46 AM
Also on the subject:
Game programming can be very creative when the programmer comes up with new ideas, and algorithm. Programming is not boring like some think and it shouldn''t be.