You insult everyone who is a professional by telling them aren't professionals and indirectly accuse them of producing poor work due to money being involed[/quote]
Like a former boss of mine said: Unlike programmers, the cleaning crew earns money by doing useful work by keeping the place from stinking up.
The "games are art" mentality isn't really the right way to be thinking of games. Consider a table. There are tables that are churned out of factories, essentially pressed from a cookie cutter and sold en mass at places like IKEA. Such places make money because even though their product isn't too imaginitive it basically satisfies the customers that are in the market for a table. You also have craftsmen. People that can take materials and build something exqusite that is unique in the world, beautiful, but probably will only be seen by a reletively small number of people. This board is full of craftsmen, of varying degrees of mastery, each with their own project to build. Some are better at the business end of things than others. It's probably safe to say that all have spent a lot of time learning their craft.
I can make games for no money because I can code. My artwork might be (ok, it is) crap but if I don't obsess about my graphics (which I do), and if I give consideration to what would be fun to play despite crappy graphics, I can make a game. So learn to code and you're all set. I believe there's an FAQ in the For Beginners section that covers where to start on that. I think it suggests picking up a couple books on your language of choice, maybe getting a copy of Visual Studio Express (which is free), and take the first steps on the very long journey of learning to write programs. It's either that, or you're going to need to provide an incentive to get someone to do the work for you. The obvious incentive is money.
[color="red"]Anyway, I want to discuss how we as designers can create our dream game, without all the B.S. that comes with money, corporations, and the American way!
So you want to talk how to design a game without actually organizing team to design a game?
[color="red"]A great example is blizzard, and how they refuse to release a game until it meets their standards.
You know why?
Because games that do not meet their standards do not make any money.
[color="red"]I have a game that I've been designing for a long time, mostly just imagining it in my head
Wait, so you have a game you have been "designing" for a long game, but you only "imagined" it? So you haven't actually done any design then?
(and no, pondering what kind of an Axe the goblins should use while you shower is not designing).
[color="red"]call out to fellow dreamers for help
We're not dreamers. We're achievers. There is a difference you have yet to learn.
[color="red"] If you are at all interested, and think you might be able to help, let me know!
Considering you refuse to state your "idea" none of us even know what we are helping you with.
[color="red"]we aren't talking simple like Starcraft, or Diablo,
Hahaha. You could probably fund the project from stand up comedy itself.
[color="red"] and I'm hoping to create a better more addicting and more enjoyable game than we currently see in the market
So does every single gaming developer ever.
(except for the guys who made Barbie Horse Adventures. They're the ones who already achieved that).
[color="red"]the design and creation of this game will 100% be by any of us that join.
Wait, so current games aren't made 100% by the people who work on them? I want to get my hands on all those magical invisible monkeys that create games!
[color="red"] (accounting, HR, etc.)
It's been stated, but why do you need HR and accounting for a non-profit non-corporation? I don't think you understand what a corporation or a game company actually is.
[color="red"]I don't think I'm qualified as the lead designer/producer
Wait, so you have an idea, but you are not the idea guy. What exactly are YOU going to do in this project?
[color="red"] A company couldn't design this game, because it is too "Risky".
So you basically admit this is a waste of everyone's time. Ok.
[color="red"] I am a gamer, I love playing games, and ever since Warcraft I, when I beat that game for the first time, and read the credits (thanks to ray the soda man), I knew that I wanted to be in this business.
Wait, I thought games were ART and you didn't want any "Corporations" laying hands on your precious games cause they are too business-oriented?
[color="red"] Thus I'm reaching out to anyone else, anyone who could help me make this game.
Again, you refuse to tell us what the game actually is, so how can we help you? Or are you afraid people will - gasp - steal your precious and unique idea?
[color="red"]All I have are the beginnings, rough beginnings of a design document, and my vision,
Hey, I have a vision too. And you know what? My vision is better than your vision. Now what?
[color="red"]...my vision, which has been fleshed out and designed in my head for over 10 years.
cool, hit us up when they invent mind-readers.
[color="red"]As to returns, eventually the game will make money if we are able to succeed, and I'm sure it will make a decent profit
Well damn, your hatred and refusal to acknowledge any business-related ideas regarding designing a game sure convince me this will make profit! Where do I sign up?
[color="red"]which then will be shared amongst those of us who built up this dream of mine.
Yes, we're all just drones who are DYING to build your dreams for you!
[color="red"]The more of you out there, who can provide help in whatever ways you can, then the better this project will be.
Actually, too many people on a project (especially in the "idea man" category) is a great path for utter chaos, inconsistency and eventual failure. But then again, it's not like you would know anything about getting a working team together, now would you, Mr. "Corporations are Evil" ?
[color="red"]how we can create a game with no money!
The same way you would create it with money. The actual process of game design doesn't change* with the money. But what money does is motivate people to actually stay on board, and it also - you know - feeds them so they dont starve to death while working. Art wont fulfill my daily carbohydrates requirement.
(* ok so that's a lie, money has big impact on design choices, but for the sake of the argument we can dismiss that in just this particular sentence)
[color="red"]Lets face it, everyone has an idea, ideas are cheap, a dime a dozen. Most of us have good ideas, but those are still very common. ... but it is a work of ART.
SO all ideas are cheap and common... except yours?
[color="red"] I understand you may have grown up and been made fun of due to certain size... issues
Way to respect your prospective coworkers. Pure class. If you want to work with people who have "certain size... issues," are you sure it's not YOU who is compensating for something?
[color="red"]I'm the dumbest person in this forum. Now, anyone willing to help?
Why would we want to help a dumb person who wants to order us around while disrespecting us along the way?
[color="red"]please, don't attack myself or others for their lack, or assumption of knowledge.
But it's ok for you to attack us?
[color="red"]I'm wondering when we truly need that money?
Do you need food to survive? Yes / No / Retry ?
[color="red"] So I appeal to those of you who are interested, help me, help us, create something fun and exciting to play.
See the thing is... I don't need to help you to create something fun. I (and many others here) are more than capable of creating something fun on our own. I'm very happy you have an idea and dreams - but so do we. And unlike you, many of us here have spent years in college learning about computer programming, many summers interning for "evil corporations" learning how to create 3D models, and countless evenings custom-mapping Quake levels to understand what it is that makes them flow. We didn't sit on the couch and "think" about this stuff. We went out and did it. We can go and do it any time we want.
And we really don't need the "help" of someone who has no understanding of the gaming industry, frowns upon organized game development, while simultaneously trying to organize a team (the hell?), considers all game "professionals" unprofessional, and openly admits he has nothing to contribute to the team besides his "cheap" and "common" idea.
No thank you.
Comrade, Listen! The Glorious Commonwealth's first Airship has been compromised! Who is the saboteur? Who can be saved? Uncover what the passengers are hiding and write the grisly conclusion of its final hours in an open-ended, player-driven adventure. Dziekujemy! -- Karaski: What Goes Up...
The "games are art" mentality isn't really the right way to be thinking of games. Consider a table. There are tables that are churned out of factories, essentially pressed from a cookie cutter and sold en mass at places like IKEA. Such places make money because even though their product isn't too imaginitive it basically satisfies the customers that are in the market for a table. You also have craftsmen. People that can take materials and build something exqusite that is unique in the world, beautiful, but probably will only be seen by a reletively small number of people. This board is full of craftsmen, of varying degrees of mastery, each with their own project to build. Some are better at the business end of things than others. It's probably safe to say that all have spent a lot of time learning their craft.
I can make games for no money because I can code. My artwork might be (ok, it is) crap but if I don't obsess about my graphics (which I do), and if I give consideration to what would be fun to play despite crappy graphics, I can make a game. So learn to code and you're all set. I believe there's an FAQ in the For Beginners section that covers where to start on that. I think it suggests picking up a couple books on your language of choice, maybe getting a copy of Visual Studio Express (which is free), and take the first steps on the very long journey of learning to write programs. It's either that, or you're going to need to provide an incentive to get someone to do the work for you. The obvious incentive is money.
Thanks kseh, good points. So I guess then it remains down to how we decide to create our product. I'm not saying corporations don't work, they do, but it is like Ikea, they are basic but functional. Whereas a craftsman might take a little bit more risk to make a beautiful table. I don't mean to insult or offend, I'm just that way by nature people.
So to point: If you have a game design, you have 2 options, do it all yourself, or use a company (sell it to them I guess). We've established that we need a good game design doc, which is common sense, but very necessary to state. Then we have to program the game, by ourselves, or as a company. So it sounds to me, like what I was afraid of is true, there isn't any way to realisticly create a game for very little money. Since we've established that money is necessary, when then do you get the money, and how? How much do you need? I guess I'm wondering how other's have made games and sold them while not being employed to do so by a company...
And Phantom, good riddance, be gone with you. One of the difficulties I've noticed with these types of forum's are the people who feel that they NEED to say something, anything. If you don't have anything of value to add to the conversation, then keep your mouth shut and move on. As to professionals, we may act like professionals, but as btower noted, we do get our degrees! But we don't have a professional licensing program like Architects, Engineers, even real estate and loan officers, etc. I'm not insulting anyone, just pointing out that we aren't technically professionals at our trade, because we have nothing set up to establish a minimum.
Back to kseh, I guess what I'm trying to get discussed here is how other's have maintained the "ART" of designing a game, but for low cost, and without all the resources available to a large company. I would think that due to a smaller size, less rigid structure, and less politics of the office place, a small team should be able to out develop a larger company. Any thoughts?
[color="red"]Anyway, I want to discuss how we as designers can create our dream game, without all the B.S. that comes with money, corporations, and the American way!
So you want to talk how to design a game without actually organizing team to design a game?
[color="red"]A great example is blizzard, and how they refuse to release a game until it meets their standards.
You know why?
Because games that do not meet their standards do not make any money.
[color="red"]I have a game that I've been designing for a long time, mostly just imagining it in my head
Wait, so you have a game you have been "designing" for a long game, but you only "imagined" it? So you haven't actually done any design then?
(and no, pondering what kind of an Axe the goblins should use while you shower is not designing).
[color="red"]call out to fellow dreamers for help
We're not dreamers. We're achievers. There is a difference you have yet to learn.
[color="red"]If you are at all interested, and think you might be able to help, let me know!
Considering you refuse to state your "idea" none of us even know what we are helping you with.
[color="red"]we aren't talking simple like Starcraft, or Diablo,
Hahaha. You could probably fund the project from stand up comedy itself.
[color="red"]and I'm hoping to create a better more addicting and more enjoyable game than we currently see in the market
So does every single gaming developer ever.
(except for the guys who made Barbie Horse Adventures. They're the ones who already achieved that).
[color="red"]the design and creation of this game will 100% be by any of us that join.
Wait, so current games aren't made 100% by the people who work on them? I want to get my hands on all those magical invisible monkeys that create games!
[color="red"](accounting, HR, etc.)
It's been stated, but why do you need HR and accounting for a non-profit non-corporation? I don't think you understand what a corporation or a game company actually is.
[color="red"]I don't think I'm qualified as the lead designer/producer
Wait, so you have an idea, but you are not the idea guy. What exactly are YOU going to do in this project?
[color="red"]A company couldn't design this game, because it is too "Risky".
So you basically admit this is a waste of everyone's time. Ok.
[color="red"] I am a gamer, I love playing games, and ever since Warcraft I, when I beat that game for the first time, and read the credits (thanks to ray the soda man), I knew that I wanted to be in this business.
Wait, I thought games were ART and you didn't want any "Corporations" laying hands on your precious games cause they are too business-oriented?
[color="red"]Thus I'm reaching out to anyone else, anyone who could help me make this game.
Again, you refuse to tell us what the game actually is, so how can we help you? Or are you afraid people will - gasp - steal your precious and unique idea?
[color="red"]All I have are the beginnings, rough beginnings of a design document, and my vision,
Hey, I have a vision too. And you know what? My vision is better than your vision. Now what?
[color="red"]...my vision, which has been fleshed out and designed in my head for over 10 years.
cool, hit us up when they invent mind-readers.
[color="red"]As to returns, eventually the game will make money if we are able to succeed, and I'm sure it will make a decent profit
Well damn, your hatred and refusal to acknowledge any business-related ideas regarding designing a game sure convince me this will make profit! Where do I sign up?
[color="red"]which then will be shared amongst those of us who built up this dream of mine.
Yes, we're all just drones who are DYING to build your dreams for you!
[color="red"]The more of you out there, who can provide help in whatever ways you can, then the better this project will be.
Actually, too many people on a project (especially in the "idea man" category) is a great path for utter chaos, inconsistency and eventual failure. But then again, it's not like you would know anything about getting a working team together, now would you, Mr. "Corporations are Evil" ?
[color="red"]how we can create a game with no money!
The same way you would create it with money. The actual process of game design doesn't change* with the money. But what money does is motivate people to actually stay on board, and it also - you know - feeds them so they dont starve to death while working. Art wont fulfill my daily carbohydrates requirement.
(* ok so that's a lie, money has big impact on design choices, but for the sake of the argument we can dismiss that in just this particular sentence)
[color="red"]Lets face it, everyone has an idea, ideas are cheap, a dime a dozen. Most of us have good ideas, but those are still very common. ... but it is a work of ART.
SO all ideas are cheap and common... except yours?
[color="red"]I understand you may have grown up and been made fun of due to certain size... issues
Way to respect your prospective coworkers. Pure class. If you want to work with people who have "certain size... issues," are you sure it's not YOU who is compensating for something?
[color="red"]I'm the dumbest person in this forum. Now, anyone willing to help?
Why would we want to help a dumb person who wants to order us around while disrespecting us along the way?
[color="red"]please, don't attack myself or others for their lack, or assumption of knowledge.
But it's ok for you to attack us?
[color="red"]I'm wondering when we truly need that money?
Do you need food to survive? Yes / No / Retry ?
[color="red"]So I appeal to those of you who are interested, help me, help us, create something fun and exciting to play.
See the thing is... I don't need to help you to create something fun. I (and many others here) are more than capable of creating something fun on our own. I'm very happy you have an idea and dreams - but so do we. And unlike you, many of us here have spent years in college learning about computer programming, many summers interning for "evil corporations" learning how to create 3D models, and countless evenings custom-mapping Quake levels to understand what it is that makes them flow. We didn't sit on the couch and "think" about this stuff. We went out and did it. We can go and do it any time we want.
And we really don't need the "help" of someone who has no understanding of the gaming industry, frowns upon organized game development, while simultaneously trying to organize a team (the hell?), considers all game "professionals" unprofessional, and openly admits he has nothing to contribute to the team besides his "cheap" and "common" idea.
No thank you.
Wow, feel better? Someone heard you. As to sitting on the couch and not doing anything, well... You know what they say about assumptions... I'm not hear to peddle my idea. People don't hear this though. I purposefully didn't, because I was hoping for some insight from those of you who have been in this industry. I unfortunately have been in a completely different industry experience success, but have always wanted to return to this industry? Anyway, I'm feeling rather sad, because my earnest attempt to start what I thought would be an intersting conversation, has turned into a contest to see who's ego is bigger. I'm not sure whats sadder, me who wasted my time with this post today, or you who wasted all your time finding faults in someone else, and not really even bothering to add anything productive to the table.
So Koozie, how would YOU, or the other enlightened geniuses who have stated how much more than me they know, go about creating a game without any funding? Or at what point would you expect to need funding? And once again, thanks to everyone who added to this conversation instead of blowing smoke up our ....
Your earnest attempt? Ego fights? What? You're the one who started insulting people who replied in this thread. I (and many others here) did bring a lot of productive things to the table - we might have been blunt or sarcastic in our answers, but they are answers nonetheless. Just because they aren't the kind of answers you wanted to hear doesn't mean they aren't valid.
And as for my enlightened genius, I wont waste words trying to explain the process of game development to you - THAT would be a waste of time. There is plenty of books, websites and threads on this very forum which have already done that a million times, which you would find if you took the 5 seconds to do a simple search. But we already know initiative isn't an often seen word in your vocabulary. And I could spend this time on much better things - such as finishing coding up serialization code for my game I have been actually working on for the past two months and now reaching early functional prototypes.
Anyway, I am done replying to your posts; this has degraded into a flamewar and GameDev doesnt need that. Good luck with your ideas.
p.s. my name isn't koozie
Comrade, Listen! The Glorious Commonwealth's first Airship has been compromised! Who is the saboteur? Who can be saved? Uncover what the passengers are hiding and write the grisly conclusion of its final hours in an open-ended, player-driven adventure. Dziekujemy! -- Karaski: What Goes Up...
Of course, I always wonder about all the idea people. I remember being a kid and thinking up all these cool ideas for games. It wasn't until I started programming I realized how much work was involved for one guy.
Everybody should learn basic or python to make their games
...but we know that won't happen...would be cool though, it would help the idea people on what is need in a game design. (How things are processed, how images are used, how, how, how. Well you get the idea)
Game development is a craft which "contains both artistic and functional elements: It must be aesthetically pleasing, but it also must work well and be enjoyable to play."
-Andrew Rollings, author of Andrew Rollings and Ernest Adams on Game Design.
Anyway, I want to discuss how we as designers can create our dream game, without all the B.S. that comes with money, corporations, and the American way! A great example is blizzard, and how they refuse to release a game until it meets their standards.
You appear to have completely misunderstood reality to a degree that you simply couldn't have got things more wrong.
Blizzard is ONLY able to work the way they do because of the fact that they have money, lots and lots of money - which they got from years and years of hard work slowly building up a company and dealing with the corporate BS of publishers. As a result of all those years of work they can now hire top class, experienced developers and take as long as necessary to make massive games that many other developers and publishers couldn't afford to make. They are not making art in some unheated garret in Paris with a young starving chap named Vincent painting away next door - they are running a massive business, making a great product, because they know that great products sell really well.
This isn't a little design, we aren't talking simple like Starcraft, or Diablo, and I'm hoping to create a better more addicting and more enjoyable game than we currently see in the market, and I hope to accomplish this because the design and creation of this game will 100% be by any of us that join. [/quote]
For your argument to have any validity at all you have to show us a team that has made a game of this scope and magnitude without being a big publisher funded developer (or in-house studio). Problem is there aren't any. A mod like Counterstrike would be closest to the scale of game that you are talking about but that took talented/skilled people years to make and even then it was just the Alpha version. It took a lot more time to make a great game before Valve stepped in and bought the game. There are also limits to what you can do with a mod because it is, by definition, based on an existing game engine.
If you want to make a game without money then you need to be making small games like Braid or any of the other small indie games that are out on iPhone, PC or XBLIG. However to do that you need to be able to program, do art, build levels (in a level design tool) or pay professionals to do it for you.
Trent, you say you have been enjoying this site for 10 years yet you obviously haven't actually read much of the information here. You obviously haven't read all the previous threads that are the same as yours and all end badly. You obviously haven't looked at all the Help Wanted threads - all the massive "bigger/better than Halo" projects started by an "ideas person" with no actual development skills, which all fail. More importantly you haven't read any of the articles that explain how you go about learning to make games.
However none of that is going to help you, nor will asking people here how you make a game like Starcraft or how you get the money to do so; because even when you know you will still lack the necessary development skills that are an essential part of the process. The game development business is an industry that requires you to show you can actually do something before anyone is going to invest the upwards of $30 million dollars that it would cost to make the game you are talking about. Likewise, to get the talented people needed to make even a simple hobby/indie game you need the development skills necessary to contribute more than just ideas.
If you want to learn to make games then you came to the right place. Check out the articles and other resources and get to it.
If you want someone else to make your game for you I'm afraid this isn't the place. People here put a lot of effort into learning useful skills. If you aren't willing to do the same you are unlikely to attract any worthwhile talent to help.
If you want to post a Help Wanted thread please feel free but I urge you to read back through the last years threads and to understand that, without a worthwhile skill you are unlikely to succeed.
If you want to know the ultimate out come of this thread (were it to continue) then read back through the forum for the earlier versions.
![might also work]("http://i.imgur.com/1qUlZ.png"){kind=link}