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Engine coders v.s Game Company Engines


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#1 Someone something   Members   -  Reputation: 60

Posted 13 June 2011 - 02:29 AM

Well the topic might read a little confusing,so ill explain.Since ive been on gamedev all ive seen is people recommend others to just design they're own engine.Dont get me wrong im not saying that its bad but as the saying goes "time is money".So the longer you waste on making a horrid engine you could use the leading free engines out right now.I'll name a few engines you could use or even start off with by editing yourself completely and making it yourself.

UDK is a great example of a engine to use for FPS like games,im not to sure about it going into a RPG but would be time consuming.Remember folks time is money and having to spend more then 5months on a engine you wanna design yourself cause you wanna feel "PRO" is just completely dumb.

Unity 3D flexible,great to start off with,extremely easy to use just like the UDK and you can find a high amount of tuts all over the tuts.

Engines you can use to build from
i only have one so rage if you want but this is the only one i found updated and open sourced.Doom Engine or the Eternity Engine.I can link you to it,this engine was used for DragonNest so thats a good thing but its missing a high amount of things but its great on tools so your lucky on that.

Now what grinds my gears really is the whole "be pro make your own engine" and then if you dont do it you get negative rep.We're indie game designers,its hard to believe but we are basely a community not just solo acts like big companys.We dont need to compete right now cause we can help each other out of the kindness of our hearts.Ive seen such horrid advice giving like "make 2D" yes 2d is amazing and fun but a company like steam does not what a copy of angry birds done to death back on they're shelves with horrid graphics and that wont sell.I made this thread to hear what you suppose "Pro"s have to say about me advising the beginners to use engines like unity and UDK.Also i want to hear your side.BTW Steam announced they'd stop 2D games from going into they're market.

Note:i expect you to come on here with a open mind not a narrow mind fan boy of 2d games and of self coder of a engine.

Sponsor:

#2 RedPin   Banned   -  Reputation: 36

Posted 13 June 2011 - 02:31 AM

I vote for Crytek 3 and Unreal Engine 3!
Failure is simply denying the truth and refusing to adapt for success. Failure is synthetic, invented by man to justify his laziness and lack of moral conduct. What truely lies within failure is neither primative or genetic. What failure is at the heart, is man's inability to rise and meet the challenge. Success is natural, only happening when man stops trying to imitate a synthetic or imaginable object. Once man starts acting outside his emotional standpoints, he will stop trying to imitate synthetic or imaginable objects called forth by the replication of his emptiness inside his mind. Man's mind is forever idle and therefore shall call forth through the primitives of such subconscious thoughts and behaviors that Success is unnatural and that failure is natural. Success is simply doing something at man's full natural abilities and power, failure is the inability to act on what man wants, dreams, wishes, invisions, or thinks himself to do. ~ RED (concluded when I was 5 years old looking at the world with wide eyes)

#3 Mayple   Members   -  Reputation: 187

Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:28 AM

What I think alot of people fail to realize when making a game engine is most people don't just say, I think I am going to make a game engine so I can make this game. Alot of it comes from working with engines and the realization that you need more or custom things that the other engine just doesn't offer. When you start making your own game eventually you start to build your own engine.

I know alot of people that use old games and then expand more on it to make there engine for there next game replacing assets, art and simple functions they used in there first game to create an actual engine. But writing an engine from scratch is so counter productive unless you plan with a team to write something that other engines can't offer.

I think its smart to look at it from both angles, view the pros and cons on what engines have what and what game engines don't have what you need. Sometimes writing your own engine, or extracting what you need from one engine is the best move, especially if your making a FPSRPG, you kinda have to write alot of your own. Or if you are trying to make a FPS, why reinvent the wheel, theres plenty of great technology thats already out there that takes care of the head ache!
I usually just give my 2 cents, but since most of the people I meet are stubborn I give a 1$ so my advice isn't lost via exchange rate.


#4 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 31810

Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:58 AM

Since ive been on gamedev all ive seen is people recommend others to just design they're own engine.
Now what grinds my gears really is the whole "be pro make your own engine" and then if you dont do it you get negative rep.

Really??

Most of the advice I see on here is write games, not engines.

#5 ChurchSkiz   Members   -  Reputation: 458

Posted 13 June 2011 - 05:54 AM


Since ive been on gamedev all ive seen is people recommend others to just design they're own engine.
Now what grinds my gears really is the whole "be pro make your own engine" and then if you dont do it you get negative rep.

Really??

Most of the advice I see on here is write games, not engines.


Was thinking the same thing. The only people I see saying start your own engine are the guys with no finished projects. Why would you waste time on an engine to make one game when there are top quality engines for free or low cost already? Torque, Unity, GameMaker, Unreal, Source, Ogre

#6 Someone something   Members   -  Reputation: 60

Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:02 AM

If you agree awesome if some dont to each his own but in the end when you coming crying on GameDev crying about why your game looks like trash and why does everyone make a game so quickly with such high quality models and maps.Its simple cause we use Company made engines and we didnt waste our time on designing our own engine.

#7 Luckless   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1885

Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:06 AM

And Panda3d. Everyone seems to forget Panda3d on these lists.

The only reasons you should ever have to build a game engine of any kind:

1. You want to make an engine for the sake of being able to say you have.
2. You have a theory that cannot be implemented fully in any existing engine, and you have already attempted it in existing projects. (And even then you are better off taking one of the OpenSource Engines and reworking the parts that are holding you back.)
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.

#8 KanonBaum   Members   -  Reputation: 277

Posted 13 June 2011 - 09:03 AM

Steam won't allow 2D on their market any more? Really?

I hate to see the 2D genre become this degrading synonym to "indie newb material." Yeah, it's not 3D, but it's still a genre and the genre that started it all pretty much. I'd like to see 2D taken seriously too.

Back on topic, I thought the same thing the other day. Why are indie developers not helping eachother out? It shouldn't be a fight to the death. Isn't that kind of how the market is already? Yeah that'll make you stand out.
I'm that imaginary number in the parabola of life.

#9 A Brain in a Vat   Members   -  Reputation: 313

Posted 13 June 2011 - 09:35 AM

* Very few people pressure people to write their own engines. Much the opposite, actually.
* What kind of negative rep are you referring to?
* Some of us do what we do for more than money.
* Maybe you're an "indie game designer." Not all of us are "indie game designers."
* Steam is not a company. Valve is a the company.
* Valve doesn't care if you put a 2D game on Steam. I don't know where you got that.

Are you sure you should be advising people of anything?

#10 Mayple   Members   -  Reputation: 187

Posted 13 June 2011 - 09:55 AM

Can you add a link in regards to Valve not allowing the Steam Engine to have 2D games anymore?
I usually just give my 2 cents, but since most of the people I meet are stubborn I give a 1$ so my advice isn't lost via exchange rate.


#11 phara0h   Members   -  Reputation: 108

Posted 13 June 2011 - 02:53 PM

Well to say udk would not be good for a RPG, that is 100% wrong. Since I am making a full online action rpg game with the UDK engine. The only limitation to the engine is your programming level. The only reason why it gets the title and reputation for making a FPS game, is because it gives you the code for UT3. Which none of that code I am using. But I just came on here to give my two sense on the matter, so people dont wrong information about UDK.
www.sigmaxstudios.com

that's my website with information on the game I am making called Apprentice. Let me know if I can answer any qustions about Apprentice or UDK for you.

Have a good one!


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Phara0h

#12 dpadam450   Members   -  Reputation: 946

Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:03 PM

The time it takes me to fix a bug or update something in my codebase at work (an EA funded videogame company), is about 20-150x more work than if I work in my own engine which I already know in and out, and is designed in a specific way, and gets the same results with way less code.

And of course people just learn stuff to learn stuff. Nobody goes "I want to learn to code, let me just use someone else's code and I won't need to type a single line of code."

#13 phara0h   Members   -  Reputation: 108

Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:20 PM

The time it takes me to fix a bug or update something in my codebase at work (an EA funded videogame company), is about 20-150x more work than if I work in my own engine which I already know in and out, and is designed in a specific way, and gets the same results with way less code.

And of course people just learn stuff to learn stuff. Nobody goes "I want to learn to code, let me just use someone else's code and I won't need to type a single line of code."



I half agree with you. I agree that no one wants to write code. (well besides us coders anyways :P ) but if there is a bug in your game, regardless if its your engine or some one else's engine (like UDK) then you should be well knowledge in any engine your working with. Either that be your own, or some one else's engine. The reason why I dont write my own, is because why should I? If I were to make my own it would almost be the exact same thing as udk, but a lot worse do to the fact I am the only developer. If I had a team of like 100 developers, yea sure I guess I would make my own to shed off a few milliseconds of cpu time and not have to pay epic for there engine.

I would have to say, most people that try to use UDK or the unreal engine are mostly people that have no idea how to code and want to make a AAA game. Most of those people fail do to the fact they do not know how to code, and they will just try to make a fps and call it there own. When in all reality its just UT3 running there models with some simple kismet scrips to change it around a bit.

#14 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 31810

Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:02 PM

The time it takes me to fix a bug or update something in my codebase at work (an EA funded videogame company), is about 20-150x more work than if I work in my own engine which I already know in and out, and is designed in a specific way, and gets the same results with way less code.

So: working with a good engine is better than working with a crappy engine?
ok

#15 Someone something   Members   -  Reputation: 60

Posted 13 June 2011 - 10:45 PM

ok i never said that UDK wasnt good for RPG's cause im pretty sure i said this

"UDK is a great example of a engine to use for FPS like games,im not to sure about it going into a RPG, but it would be time consuming."
time consuming coding wise...


now to the guy that was all anal about the correction from steam to valve is extremely dumb to nitpick at what im saying.Its like being a grammar nazi its just a sad thing to do...I do have in my right to speak my opinion and i find those that make they're own engines are wasting times.But i did not say its wrong for them to make a engine.Just a waste of time when they could be using the UDK or Unity or whatever else engine thats out there.By the time they finish a engine on pair to unity or even the UDK they could of made more then 1 game and have had hired people to help him finish the engine or just buy the engine in itself and then build from that engine.As for the link to the valve thing i will let my friend come on here and link you since he saved the wonderful link.Have a fit idc but i dont have the link currently since i dont make it my day by filling my bookmarks with steam news.


(If you wanna be anal about it valve)


Also i have been on here for awhile now and ive seen people advise beginners to just design they're own engine or game in C++ which makes me double face palm my face.I find it distasteful that you would tell a noob to jump on such a project of that magnitude.And by you i mean some of the gamedev people.



#16 RedPin   Banned   -  Reputation: 36

Posted 13 June 2011 - 10:53 PM

Scaleform+unrealscript+kismet = RPG.
Failure is simply denying the truth and refusing to adapt for success. Failure is synthetic, invented by man to justify his laziness and lack of moral conduct. What truely lies within failure is neither primative or genetic. What failure is at the heart, is man's inability to rise and meet the challenge. Success is natural, only happening when man stops trying to imitate a synthetic or imaginable object. Once man starts acting outside his emotional standpoints, he will stop trying to imitate synthetic or imaginable objects called forth by the replication of his emptiness inside his mind. Man's mind is forever idle and therefore shall call forth through the primitives of such subconscious thoughts and behaviors that Success is unnatural and that failure is natural. Success is simply doing something at man's full natural abilities and power, failure is the inability to act on what man wants, dreams, wishes, invisions, or thinks himself to do. ~ RED (concluded when I was 5 years old looking at the world with wide eyes)

#17 phara0h   Members   -  Reputation: 108

Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:14 AM

Scaleform+unrealscript+kismet = RPG.


kismet is not needed, thats for people that dont know how to code. Or people who want a non module game.

#18 RedPin   Banned   -  Reputation: 36

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:10 AM

I still call kismet events and functions. I code in ASM, C#, Java, UCC, C++, and Python and I still use Kismet for controlling events and functions such as lighting change triggers, some event handle triggers for game mode conditions, and some music triggers. The funny part is, Kismet is there to help you prototype faster, and if you say its not needed well then congratulations. You just like doing everything the longer way don't you? :D No flame intended, don't want this to turn into a noob flaming war.
Failure is simply denying the truth and refusing to adapt for success. Failure is synthetic, invented by man to justify his laziness and lack of moral conduct. What truely lies within failure is neither primative or genetic. What failure is at the heart, is man's inability to rise and meet the challenge. Success is natural, only happening when man stops trying to imitate a synthetic or imaginable object. Once man starts acting outside his emotional standpoints, he will stop trying to imitate synthetic or imaginable objects called forth by the replication of his emptiness inside his mind. Man's mind is forever idle and therefore shall call forth through the primitives of such subconscious thoughts and behaviors that Success is unnatural and that failure is natural. Success is simply doing something at man's full natural abilities and power, failure is the inability to act on what man wants, dreams, wishes, invisions, or thinks himself to do. ~ RED (concluded when I was 5 years old looking at the world with wide eyes)

#19 Mayple   Members   -  Reputation: 187

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:11 AM

ok i never said that UDK wasnt good for RPG's cause im pretty sure i said this

"UDK is a great example of a engine to use for FPS like games,im not to sure about it going into a RPG, but it would be time consuming."
time consuming coding wise...


now to the guy that was all anal about the correction from steam to valve is extremely dumb to nitpick at what im saying.Its like being a grammar nazi its just a sad thing to do...I do have in my right to speak my opinion and i find those that make they're own engines are wasting times.But i did not say its wrong for them to make a engine.Just a waste of time when they could be using the UDK or Unity or whatever else engine thats out there.By the time they finish a engine on pair to unity or even the UDK they could of made more then 1 game and have had hired people to help him finish the engine or just buy the engine in itself and then build from that engine.As for the link to the valve thing i will let my friend come on here and link you since he saved the wonderful link.Have a fit idc but i dont have the link currently since i dont make it my day by filling my bookmarks with steam news.


(If you wanna be anal about it valve)


Also i have been on here for awhile now and ive seen people advise beginners to just design they're own engine or game in C++ which makes me double face palm my face.I find it distasteful that you would tell a noob to jump on such a project of that magnitude.And by you i mean some of the gamedev people.




Since you can't provide a link for the Steam/Valve press release then, do you mind linking a thread where someone tells a newbie programmer to learn C++ and create his first engine without learning to make the basics or to research using books.

I turned up 0 search results after an hour of work. I am that bored.

-Mayple

I am not saying that no one has ever said it. But the way you pushed out there that your sick of xxx and sick of xxx you make it seem like its a daily yeild of expectations. In all honesty in all the lurking before I registered, to today, I have seen nothing of appraisal and happyness for people just learning how to make simple games. I have yet to see anyone come off condescending saying Your new write your own engine, har har. Some pople have said other things that you may have taken out of context... like:

"Your using a FPS engine, you may need to alter it, or rewrite it to make it as an MMO, but it may be easier to make your own engine since theres not one currently on the market"
I usually just give my 2 cents, but since most of the people I meet are stubborn I give a 1$ so my advice isn't lost via exchange rate.


#20 Someone something   Members   -  Reputation: 60

Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:20 AM

ok well ill repeat what ive said about the steam thing i dont save everything they update on, my friend linked it to me once read it and tossed it.I dont save these things cause i dont find it useful.I wouldnt make such a thing up i wouldnt gain anything from it and i really dont care if people want to design 2D games that look worse then a ping pong game made straight from C++...Im not trying to be rude and if you are saying your new here you do realize that alot of things get deleted and tossed around in this forum.I wont be linking anyone or anything you will soon see the sadness i have seen.I can easily also say that gamedev is the sure place to go if you wanna get encouraged to make a 2D game instead of a 3D game.Ive seen these people post on these forums and it makes me sad to see such a waste who knows if they're stuff could be the next big thing but they rather waste it on making they're own engine.

asking for links will get you no where cause i will not just simply go through everything to prove what ive said.I have no reason to lie at all and i dont really care if people think i am.I dont lose any sleep at all.




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