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What do you think about the Revelation?


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#301 rozz666   Members   -  Reputation: 542

Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:14 AM

1. God is all knowing
2. God is all loving
3. Hell exists and humans are sent there for disobeying God

3. is not God's fault. Hell is much more a punishment we bring on ourselves than a punishment that God visits upon us.



I have no words for this logic.

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#302 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4510

Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:27 AM

There's a difference between "I know what you are going to do next" and "I programmed you to be this way". Maybe (wild theory coming), we're the self-evolving AI to God's programming skills? (Yes, I know the rebuttals are coming :))
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#303 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4510

Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:31 AM


1. God is all knowing
2. God is all loving
3. Hell exists and humans are sent there for disobeying God

3. is not God's fault. Hell is much more a punishment we bring on ourselves than a punishment that God visits upon us.



I have no words for this logic.

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LOL. That's cute. Except the robber has a gun to head the whole time, he's actually robbing you, and if he doesn't get to do his bad deed, you'll die instantly. As opposed to, God has no gun to your head (an ultimatium, yes. gun, no), He's not robbing you of anything, and He's not committing a bad deed.

I'll admit, it's clever.
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#304 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 778

Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:42 AM

I have no words for this logic.

The logic is that you are looking at heaven as an expectation not as a reward. Heaven is a reward for doing as God asks. The most basic view of hell is separation from God for eternity, which is what I believe happens if all you've done wrong is not love him.

I disagree. I'm not sure how you can claim that we bring it on ourselves when God has preordained what we're going to do by virtue of creating us and knowing what we'll do. If God chooses all of the parameters of my creation, then He knows exactly what I'm going to do and has effectively made my decisions for me. He never had to create anyone that He knew would go to Hell, but He still does.

Your argument only applies if you don't believe in free will though. Free will is one of the most core tenants of the christian faith. To start on the assumption that it does not exist to argue against the faith is as silly as starting on the assumption that oranges are not orange in order to prove that oranges are not orange.

#305 Telgin   Members   -  Reputation: 200

Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:44 AM

There's a difference between "I know what you are going to do next" and "I programmed you to be this way". Maybe (wild theory coming), we're the self-evolving AI to God's programming skills? (Yes, I know the rebuttals are coming :))



Sure, there's a difference, but when you set up the system and know the outcome, it's effectively the same thing. If God knows I'm going to Hell in the end, there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. I can't choose to not go to Hell if God knows I'm going there, you see?

It makes the decisions pointless. Maybe I choose to follow Him and don't go to Hell. Maybe I don't. In the end it doesn't matter, God knew what I was going to do and might as well have forced me.

Besides, if God did create me, didn't he program me to be like I am? :)


LOL. That's cute. Except the robber has a gun to head the whole time, he's actually robbing you, and if he doesn't get to do his bad deed, you'll die instantly. As opposed to, God has no gun to your head (an ultimatium, yes. gun, no), He's not robbing you of anything, and He's not committing a bad deed.

I'll admit, it's clever.


I dunno... God is robbing me of my time and making rules that I might otherwise not follow (i.e. buying that cake on Sunday). You could argue that God is the worse of the two here since He's very subtle about His threats (only through proxies who are of dubious trustworthiness), and if the robber kills you, that's that. If God sends you to Hell, you experience torment forever.
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#306 rozz666   Members   -  Reputation: 542

Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:51 AM

I think we again got into details when we still have no evidence for god.

#307 rozz666   Members   -  Reputation: 542

Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:53 AM



The way she presents it is kind of begging the question as she is using an empty jar to prove that the jar is empty when she should be using a jar whose contents are unknown.

How do you know both jars are empty?

I watched her explain it on youtube and she uses two empty jars. The fact that she assumes that the jar has the same traits as the empty jar is also an indicator that she assumes it is empty before she has started.

I think you didn't get my question. Doesn't matter what she said. How do you know that the other jar does not contain a transcendent dice?

#308 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 778

Posted 26 July 2011 - 12:14 PM


I watched her explain it on youtube and she uses two empty jars. The fact that she assumes that the jar has the same traits as the empty jar is also an indicator that she assumes it is empty before she has started.

I think you didn't get my question. Doesn't matter what she said. How do you know that the other jar does not contain a transcendent dice?


In my counter-example or her example?

#309 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4510

Posted 26 July 2011 - 01:10 PM

I think we again got into details when we still have no evidence for god.

We can blame your psycho vacuum cleaner for that. :P
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#310 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4510

Posted 26 July 2011 - 01:22 PM


There's a difference between "I know what you are going to do next" and "I programmed you to be this way". Maybe (wild theory coming), we're the self-evolving AI to God's programming skills? (Yes, I know the rebuttals are coming :))



Sure, there's a difference, but when you set up the system and know the outcome, it's effectively the same thing. If God knows I'm going to Hell in the end, there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. I can't choose to not go to Hell if God knows I'm going there, you see?

But me knowing the future, or any entity for that matter, doesn't keep you from making those decisions. Those are still your decisions. All I'm seeing is a future result based on your actions. If I see you robbing and stealing and predict you're going to jail, did I effectively send you there? Also, if I did set up the system and there are people who are not going to jail, then how can you still say I effectively put you in jail? I didn't put those other people in jail and they are in the same environment as you.

It makes the decisions pointless. Maybe I choose to follow Him and don't go to Hell. Maybe I don't. In the end it doesn't matter, God knew what I was going to do and might as well have forced me.

See the above.

Besides, if God did create me, didn't he program me to be like I am? :)

Depends on how He created you actually. If I mold the shape of you, give you mobility, but say, "Hey I'll put this thinking box in your head and it'll allow you to experience and learn things as time passes.", then I've created you but not programmed you. :)



LOL. That's cute. Except the robber has a gun to head the whole time, he's actually robbing you, and if he doesn't get to do his bad deed, you'll die instantly. As opposed to, God has no gun to your head (an ultimatium, yes. gun, no), He's not robbing you of anything, and He's not committing a bad deed.

I'll admit, it's clever.


I dunno... God is robbing me of my time and making rules that I might otherwise not follow (i.e. buying that cake on Sunday).

If anything God is telling you to sit back and watch the game. Not go out and buy a cake. Plus the things He's asking take as much time as doing the things He doesn't want you to do. So it's a sum-zero loss.

You could argue that God is the worse of the two here since He's very subtle about His threats (only through proxies who are of dubious trustworthiness),

When did the Ten Commandments, Jesus, and going to Hell become subtle?!

and if the robber kills you, that's that. If God sends you to Hell, you experience torment forever.

Well I can't argue with that, it's true. However, the robber can kill you whether or not he successfully robs you (to be fair, the opposite is true as well). God sends you to Hell if you're just going out of your way to be an ass. And most people (whether they believe in God or not) know when they're being an ass (level of ass notwithstanding).
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#311 SeraphLance   Members   -  Reputation: 727

Posted 26 July 2011 - 01:43 PM

But me knowing the future, or any entity for that matter, doesn't keep you from making those decisions. Those are still your decisions. All I'm seeing is a future result based on your actions. If I see you robbing and stealing and predict you're going to jail, did I effectively send you there? Also, if I did set up the system and there are people who are not going to jail, then how can you still say I effectively put you in jail? I didn't put those other people in jail and they are in the same environment as you.


If you created me, and all of the events that would actually go into my life, AND at the moment of my creation knew I was going to go to jail... Yes, you did put me there.

Even as a Christian, I don't see a way to mix benevolence, free will, and omniscience/omnipotence without throwing out something. I choose to believe that God cannot foresee the decisions I will make as a result of the free will he has given me. God just happens to predate branch prediction is all. :D

When did the Ten Commandments, Jesus, and going to Hell become subtle?!


I think his point is that they're still a lot more subtle than a cold steel gun barrel pressed against your temple.

#312 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1712

Posted 26 July 2011 - 01:47 PM

God sends you to Hell if you're just going out of your way to be an ass. And most people (whether they believe in God or not) know when they're being an ass (level of ass notwithstanding).


Depends on who you ask... maybe it's been covered in this thread already, but most Christians believe you're going to hell if you don't believe in zombie Jesus (and that he's your savior), regardless of what kind of person you are. Ghandi goes to hell, Charles Manson goes to heaven as long as he asks for forgiveness before he dies. Brilliant!

#313 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 778

Posted 26 July 2011 - 02:10 PM

If you created me, and all of the events that would actually go into my life, AND at the moment of my creation knew I was going to go to jail... Yes, you did put me there.

I'd say the bolded part is the part you have wrong. God created you and knows the events that will go into your life, but he does not create or decide them. Not according to the Bible anyway.

Depends on who you ask... maybe it's been covered in this thread already, but most Christians believe you're going to hell if you don't believe in zombie Jesus (and that he's your savior), regardless of what kind of person you are. Ghandi goes to hell, Charles Manson goes to heaven as long as he asks for forgiveness before he dies. Brilliant!


This is actually a big gray area for a lot of Christians. Most specifically on what is hell, it's uniformity or lack there of, and what happens when you die between death and heaven/hell/wherever.

Some believe that those who have had no chance to know Christ will be given the opportunity after life. Some believe that even those who have had the chance and denied him will have another chance. Some believe that once you're done you're done and you end up where you end up.

Then there's the varying levels of hell that some believe in. I am inclined to somewhat side with dante's viewpoint; though again I am by no means an authority and won't know till I die. The righteous non-believers suffer no punishment outside of being separated from God for eternity.

Really the only firm answer on what happens after we die is that if you follow the rules you're fine, and if not there is only one judge and none of us have any say in it nor any right to assume that we could know the outcome of any judgement. It is just as likely that every sinner be smote (smote? smiten? smited? smit?) as that they are all forgiven as far our understanding is concerned. Personally I think there will be significant forgiving based off of Jesus' demeanor through the Bible, but not my place to say.

#314 Telgin   Members   -  Reputation: 200

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:50 PM

But me knowing the future, or any entity for that matter, doesn't keep you from making those decisions. Those are still your decisions.


True, but I still contend that God knowing the future makes any decision I make pointless because I would be powerless to deviate from what He knows I will do. Wouldn't you agree? Since God set the universe in motion and knows absolutely everything that will happen down to the most fundamental level, I have no say in the future and therefore have no free will. It appears that I have free will in the present, but my decision has already been made for me. The decision is still certainly dependent on the circumstances and was genuinely made based on them, but the circumstances and outcome were always set in stone and so are pointless. I don't see how anyone could be accountable for their decisions in such an environment.

If I see you robbing and stealing and predict you're going to jail, did I effectively send you there?


If you created the future, then yes. In this case, God created all of the circumstances leading up to me committing the crime and all of the outcome. Or could I have possibly deviated from the future that God orchestrated at the beginning of the universe?

Also, if I did set up the system and there are people who are not going to jail, then how can you still say I effectively put you in jail? I didn't put those other people in jail and they are in the same environment as you.


That's the problem, of course. God created all circumstances and people. He creates people He knows will do these things if they had the chance and then puts them in an environment where they can. Then they do. Which is absolutely no surprise to God because he saw it coming since the very beginning of time. That's what I'm talking about when I say God makes our decisions for us. When He created the universe He laid out the entire future of it at that instant and set in stone what I would do.

Besides, if God did create me, didn't he program me to be like I am? :)

Depends on how He created you actually. If I mold the shape of you, give you mobility, but say, "Hey I'll put this thinking box in your head and it'll allow you to experience and learn things as time passes.", then I've created you but not programmed you. :)




I think perhaps this is the point where we are fundamentally disagreeing about. Perhaps God does just design our bodies, tosses a brain in there and says, "Have at it!" The problem as I see it is that He knows precisely what environmental stimuli you'll encounter and what effect that will have, even before you're born. Thus, he knows that given a particular brain and environment, whether or not you're going to Heaven or Hell. Thus He is choosing where you'll go when he is preparing your brain and your environment. It's not necessarily direct programming, but it's the same effect.

If anything God is telling you to sit back and watch the game. Not go out and buy a cake. Plus the things He's asking take as much time as doing the things He doesn't want you to do. So it's a sum-zero loss.


I think you misunderstood. I know two people in person who believe that if you buy something on Sunday, you're a dirty rotten sinner and will go to Hell for it. That is a silly rule that I have no reason to follow, except for the possibility that God would indeed send me to Hell for breaking a commandment (keep the Sabbath day holy, whatever that really means).

I'd also like to spend time that I would otherwise be in church doing things like sleeping or playing Everquest...


You could argue that God is the worse of the two here since He's very subtle about His threats (only through proxies who are of dubious trustworthiness),

When did the Ten Commandments, Jesus, and going to Hell become subtle?!


SeraphLance hit the nail on the head here. God's threats are from several thousand year old texts and we've heard nothing from Him since. It makes me suspicious of their trustworthiness, you see.

and if the robber kills you, that's that. If God sends you to Hell, you experience torment forever.

God sends you to Hell if you're just going out of your way to be an ass. And most people (whether they believe in God or not) know when they're being an ass (level of ass notwithstanding).


I wish it worked that way. There's examples of things in the Bible that the majority of Christians today believe would get you sent to Hell that I don't consider reasonable at all. Homosexuality is a great example. Or, buying something on Sunday.
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#315 rozz666   Members   -  Reputation: 542

Posted 27 July 2011 - 12:45 AM



I watched her explain it on youtube and she uses two empty jars. The fact that she assumes that the jar has the same traits as the empty jar is also an indicator that she assumes it is empty before she has started.

I think you didn't get my question. Doesn't matter what she said. How do you know that the other jar does not contain a transcendent dice?


In my counter-example or her example?

In the clip. There are three jars. One contained a normal dice. How do you know the other two jars were empty?

#316 _moagstar_   Members   -  Reputation: 461

Posted 27 July 2011 - 01:44 AM


Depends on who you ask... maybe it's been covered in this thread already, but most Christians believe you're going to hell if you don't believe in zombie Jesus (and that he's your savior), regardless of what kind of person you are. Ghandi goes to hell, Charles Manson goes to heaven as long as he asks for forgiveness before he dies. Brilliant!


This is actually a big gray area for a lot of Christians. Most specifically on what is hell, it's uniformity or lack there of, and what happens when you die between death and heaven/hell/wherever.

Some believe that those who have had no chance to know Christ will be given the opportunity after life. Some believe that even those who have had the chance and denied him will have another chance. Some believe that once you're done you're done and you end up where you end up.

Then there's the varying levels of hell that some believe in. I am inclined to somewhat side with dante's viewpoint; though again I am by no means an authority and won't know till I die. The righteous non-believers suffer no punishment outside of being separated from God for eternity.

Really the only firm answer on what happens after we die is that if you follow the rules you're fine, and if not there is only one judge and none of us have any say in it nor any right to assume that we could know the outcome of any judgement. It is just as likely that every sinner be smote (smote? smiten? smited? smit?) as that they are all forgiven as far our understanding is concerned. Personally I think there will be significant forgiving based off of Jesus' demeanor through the Bible, but not my place to say.


In other words... Christians are just making it up as they go along?

#317 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 778

Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:40 AM

In other words... Christians are just making it up as they go along?

There's surprisingly little on what happens after death in the bible other than if you do good you will get to heaven and if not you might not. It's pointless even dwelling on it, and that is actually such a small part of the faith it doesn't really matter. It stresses not putting yourself in the gray area in the first place, so why even worry about what happens in there?

It's like asking a physicist to explain the narwhal; he would probably have good guesses, but it has little relevance to his work on string theory or whatever he may be working on so why dwell on it?

#318 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 778

Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:47 AM

In the clip. There are three jars. One contained a normal dice. How do you know the other two jars were empty?


Putting aside that she said they were both empty at the start of the video, she uses a set of observations on the jar to compare to the existence of something on which she has no set of observations. Observing nothing is very different than not observing something.

#319 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 778

Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:51 AM

I wish it worked that way. There's examples of things in the Bible that the majority of Christians today believe would get you sent to Hell that I don't consider reasonable at all. Homosexuality is a great example. Or, buying something on Sunday.

right around 50% of christians believe that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle and it's increasingly shifting higher. I sincerely doubt anywhere close to a majority believe buying things on Sunday will send you to hell.

#320 _moagstar_   Members   -  Reputation: 461

Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:13 AM

There's surprisingly little on what happens after death in the bible other than if you do good you will get to heaven and if not you might not. It's pointless even dwelling on it, and that is actually such a small part of the faith it doesn't really matter. It stresses not putting yourself in the gray area in the first place, so why even worry about what happens in there?

It's like asking a physicist to explain the narwhal; he would probably have good guesses, but it has little relevance to his work on string theory or whatever he may be working on so why dwell on it?


Maybe you don't want to dwell on the point because it makes a mockery of an all-benevolent and all-loving god. Maybe you want to ignore it since it also highlights some of the glaring inaccuracies and omissions in what is supposed to be an infallible book. Frankly, I'd rather ask the questions, how can god be all-benevolent and leave the potential for someone like Adolf Hitler to get into heaven, while someone like John Lennon could perish in hell for eternity? How can the bible be written through divine inspiration and be completely inerrant, when it can't give us a clear simple message about what is right and wrong, what happens after we die, how we achieve salvation (to name just a few things which the bible isn't so clear on).

You can press your eyes tightly together, stick your fingers in your eyes and shout "La la la la la la la la la la" all you want, but I'd rather ask these probing questions, thanks. If you've got any reasonable answers, I'm all ears....

right around 50% of christians believe that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle and it's increasingly shifting higher. I sincerely doubt anywhere close to a majority believe buying things on Sunday will send you to hell.


So what use is the bible if the majority of Christians are beginning to get their own ideas about what is right and wrong, which directly contradicts these sacred and holy texts?




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