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What do you think about the Revelation?


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#21 RetLee   Members   -  Reputation: 124

Posted 16 July 2011 - 07:56 AM

What does the man who constantly hallucinates beautiful goddesses showering him with gifts see during the events outlined in Revelations?

The mind is a trickster, but who's mind is it?

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#22 Binomine   Members   -  Reputation: 538

Posted 16 July 2011 - 11:30 AM

Why are we always on the cusp of the end times?

Exactly.

As you said, it can come anytime, but when you think of it another way, it can come at anytime.

If you had a number line that is stretched from NOW --> Anytime, you'd realize that anytime can be a pretty far away number. It is more likely larger than a saeculum, the length of time from NOW to the time when every human alive at this very moment is dead and replaced by their children. Since there is an infinity time between as saeculum and infinity and a short time between now and a saeculum.

All those passes that it can come at anytime can also be about death, which can come at anytime as well. That was the point of the wise and foolish virgins.

Still, compared to how early Christians had it, we're still not at a point that rivals them, let alone Noah. No one is being burned as decor. The rate of peace is pretty high in this time period compared to many others. Some of the governments in the world, like socialism, are based on principals found in Christianity. I just can't see anyone reaching that conclusion that we are slipping into a time like Noah's.

#23 HappyCoder   Members   -  Reputation: 2665

Posted 16 July 2011 - 03:51 PM

I do not see any point in destroying wickedness, since it is a quite vital thing. Should I end up in a world where people just have to opress each other, have no pations, are scared and do not trust anyone, where there is just fear and unhapiness. Would be even worse than here on earth. And one last thing, do not use Christ as an icon of antigod movement. Icon of antigod movement is daemon Legion, cursed by wicked gods, he is constantly bleeding from his mouth. Realm of an antigod is a prison , becouse it would be empty if it was not, and more they torture, the more moral and better they feel. Luckily, according to reachable literature, antigods do not exist. Do not call for hate and destruction, Jesus represents understanding and love, not theese things that haters are after.



I repeat myself, punishment does not come out of hate. Read Hebrews 12:5-11 It clearly states that God punishes us to correct he. He loves us and finds us worth the trouble to correct. He chastens us because he loves us. (Helaman 15:3)

God is a perfectly righteous being. If we want to live with him we need to become like him. Unfortunately we all have our weaknesses. We all sin. Sin makes us unclean and no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. Our own guilt would bear down upon us and we would much rather be somewhere else. On our own we cannot make it back. That is why God sent Christ. For anyone who repents can become clean through Christ. Past actions can be forgiven. We don't have to have a perfect track record. (Isaiah 1:18) We do however have to repent, and part of repentance is stopping the unclean behaviors. We can be spotless when the day of judgment comes and we will have a clear conscience. (Mosiah 2:32-41)

We all have our agency. We are free to follow God or follow Satan. We cannot choose the consequences. (Alma 42:27-28) That is how it is.

#24 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2363

Posted 17 July 2011 - 01:14 AM


I do not see any point in destroying wickedness, since it is a quite vital thing. Should I end up in a world where people just have to opress each other, have no pations, are scared and do not trust anyone, where there is just fear and unhapiness. Would be even worse than here on earth. And one last thing, do not use Christ as an icon of antigod movement. Icon of antigod movement is daemon Legion, cursed by wicked gods, he is constantly bleeding from his mouth. Realm of an antigod is a prison , becouse it would be empty if it was not, and more they torture, the more moral and better they feel. Luckily, according to reachable literature, antigods do not exist. Do not call for hate and destruction, Jesus represents understanding and love, not theese things that haters are after.



I repeat myself, punishment does not come out of hate. Read Hebrews 12:5-11 It clearly states that God punishes us to correct he. He loves us and finds us worth the trouble to correct. He chastens us because he loves us. (Helaman 15:3)

God is a perfectly righteous being. If we want to live with him we need to become like him. Unfortunately we all have our weaknesses. We all sin. Sin makes us unclean and no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. Our own guilt would bear down upon us and we would much rather be somewhere else. On our own we cannot make it back. That is why God sent Christ. For anyone who repents can become clean through Christ. Past actions can be forgiven. We don't have to have a perfect track record. (Isaiah 1:18) We do however have to repent, and part of repentance is stopping the unclean behaviors. We can be spotless when the day of judgment comes and we will have a clear conscience. (Mosiah 2:32-41)

We all have our agency. We are free to follow God or follow Satan. We cannot choose the consequences. (Alma 42:27-28) That is how it is.


I choose not to believe in the narcissistic psychopath that is yahweh. If by some absurdly small chance the "revalation" does come to pass, I will stand before god and tell him that there was insufficient evidence to believe in him, but I have lead a (mostly ) good life, loved my neighbour (a lot more than the deranged bigots who commit untold atrocities in his name) and if he decides to condemn me, well then he's just proved I was right about him in the first place.
if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#25 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:36 AM

I choose not to believe in the narcissistic psychopath that is yahweh. If by some absurdly small chance the "revalation" does come to pass, I will stand before god and tell him that there was insufficient evidence to believe in him, but I have lead a (mostly ) good life, loved my neighbour (a lot more than the deranged bigots who commit untold atrocities in his name) and if he decides to condemn me, well then he's just proved I was right about him in the first place.


If you're starting with the assumption that God is an arrogant punisher you want nothing to do with you aren't giving him much reason not to condemn you even putting aside that you may or may not believe in him.

#26 Machaira   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1028

Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:13 AM

... there was insufficient evidence to believe in him...


So what would be sufficient evidence and why should God use your definition of "sufficient"?
Microsoft XNA MVP | Check out my blog for random ramblings on XNA game development

#27 _moagstar_   Members   -  Reputation: 465

Posted 18 July 2011 - 12:28 PM


... there was insufficient evidence to believe in him...


So what would be sufficient evidence and why should God use your definition of "sufficient"?


Technically god has already provided evidence, see the bible for details.
Whether or not god would deem this evidence as sufficient is irrelevant. For many people this evidence is not sufficient, and by many we're talking about the vast majority of the human race, which is a far cry from:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved.



Further, consider all the people who died having never even heard the name Jesus Christ let along had the chance to believe that he came to as the saviour of humanity, and god (assuming such an entity exists) really does seem to have it in for a large number of us.

#28 mikeman   Members   -  Reputation: 2227

Posted 18 July 2011 - 01:24 PM



I do not see any point in destroying wickedness, since it is a quite vital thing. Should I end up in a world where people just have to opress each other, have no pations, are scared and do not trust anyone, where there is just fear and unhapiness. Would be even worse than here on earth. And one last thing, do not use Christ as an icon of antigod movement. Icon of antigod movement is daemon Legion, cursed by wicked gods, he is constantly bleeding from his mouth. Realm of an antigod is a prison , becouse it would be empty if it was not, and more they torture, the more moral and better they feel. Luckily, according to reachable literature, antigods do not exist. Do not call for hate and destruction, Jesus represents understanding and love, not theese things that haters are after.



I repeat myself, punishment does not come out of hate. Read Hebrews 12:5-11 It clearly states that God punishes us to correct he. He loves us and finds us worth the trouble to correct. He chastens us because he loves us. (Helaman 15:3)

God is a perfectly righteous being. If we want to live with him we need to become like him. Unfortunately we all have our weaknesses. We all sin. Sin makes us unclean and no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. Our own guilt would bear down upon us and we would much rather be somewhere else. On our own we cannot make it back. That is why God sent Christ. For anyone who repents can become clean through Christ. Past actions can be forgiven. We don't have to have a perfect track record. (Isaiah 1:18) We do however have to repent, and part of repentance is stopping the unclean behaviors. We can be spotless when the day of judgment comes and we will have a clear conscience. (Mosiah 2:32-41)

We all have our agency. We are free to follow God or follow Satan. We cannot choose the consequences. (Alma 42:27-28) That is how it is.


I choose not to believe in the narcissistic psychopath that is yahweh. If by some absurdly small chance the "revalation" does come to pass, I will stand before god and tell him that there was insufficient evidence to believe in him, but I have lead a (mostly ) good life, loved my neighbour (a lot more than the deranged bigots who commit untold atrocities in his name) and if he decides to condemn me, well then he's just proved I was right about him in the first place.


Interesting question. If there is actually an omnipotent, omnicscient Creator of the Universe, does that automatically give him absolute authority on morality issues? Or can we still judge(evaluate, ponder on) his actions? What if he commands us to kill, and we refuse? Does that make us evil, or him? Or the Creator is right by definition, even when killing?

To any religious person: If tomorrow God appeared to you and ordered you to sucrifice your children, would you do it? Or would you say "what you are commanding me to do is evil, so you are evil, therefore you are not my God, the omnibelovelent Creator. Not all spirits than can talk to humans are God". We know what Abraham did...

#29 Machaira   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1028

Posted 18 July 2011 - 03:00 PM

For many people this evidence is not sufficient,


And yet they probably accept all the historical events that have the same amount of proof, or even less. A bit hypocritical IMO, but whatever.


and by many we're talking about the vast majority of the human race, which is a far cry from:


1 Timothy 2:3-4
God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved.



Further, consider all the people who died having never even heard the name Jesus Christ let along had the chance to believe that he came to as the saviour of humanity, and god (assuming such an entity exists) really does seem to have it in for a large number of us.

God does want everyone to accept the gift of salvation, but a gift cannot be forced onto people.



Microsoft XNA MVP | Check out my blog for random ramblings on XNA game development

#30 Machaira   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1028

Posted 18 July 2011 - 03:02 PM

To any religious person: If tomorrow God appeared to you and ordered you to sucrifice your children, would you do it? Or would you say "what you are commanding me to do is evil, so you are evil, therefore you are not my God, the omnibelovelent Creator. Not all spirits than can talk to humans are God". We know what Abraham did...

Since God cannot commit an evil act the whole issue is moot.
Microsoft XNA MVP | Check out my blog for random ramblings on XNA game development

#31 A Brain in a Vat   Members   -  Reputation: 313

Posted 18 July 2011 - 03:05 PM

Since there's no use in trying to use logic to talk about a crazy person's hallucinations, the whole issue is moot.

#32 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 18 July 2011 - 03:55 PM

Since there's no use in trying to use logic to talk about a crazy person's hallucinations, the whole issue is moot.


this is a productive and non-inflammatory statement...

#33 A Brain in a Vat   Members   -  Reputation: 313

Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:09 PM

this is a productive and non-inflammatory statement...

It was asked what everyone thought about the book of Revelations, and I gave my honest answer as a non-Christian. If only Christians were to answer then that should have been specified. I could have gone into how it, along with the rest of the books in the bible, are harmful to society, but I decided to simply talk about the effect it has on my personal day to day life -- that is, none.

If you were in a coffee shop, and a man with obvious hysterical delusions was babbling about some kind of magical invisible men, and someone asked you: "What do you think about the subject matter this person is talking about and its consequences?" you'd probably say, "Well, it doesn't matter much to me, because it's just a crazy person talking about his hallucinations."

#34 mikeman   Members   -  Reputation: 2227

Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:12 PM


To any religious person: If tomorrow God appeared to you and ordered you to sucrifice your children, would you do it? Or would you say "what you are commanding me to do is evil, so you are evil, therefore you are not my God, the omnibelovelent Creator. Not all spirits than can talk to humans are God". We know what Abraham did...

Since God cannot commit an evil act the whole issue is moot.


And why God should accept our definition of "evil"?

God in the OT instructs Abraham to sucrifice his child, doesn't he? Also the Israelites to attack other tribes, or parents to stone their chilrdren if they disobey them.(Yet the same God, incarnated, stops a stoning from happening in the NT).

Are you saying there is a definition of "good" besides "God says so"? What if God resarrures you that killing a person he will tell you is a good act, even if you don;t understand it, because 'my ways are higher than your ways'?

If you were in a coffee shop, and a man with obvious hysterical delusions was babbling about some kind of magical invisible men, and someone asked you: "What do you think about the subject matter this person is talking about and its consequences?" you'd probably say, "Well, it doesn't matter much to me, because it's just a crazy person talking about his hallucinations."


Were those man's babblings accepted as truth by nearly 2 billion people on this planet?

#35 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:28 PM

It was asked what everyone thought about the book of Revelations, and I gave my honest answer as a non-Christian.


It's pretty simple to answer in a non-inflammatory/non-demeaning way regardless of your feelings on the subject.

#36 A Brain in a Vat   Members   -  Reputation: 313

Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:48 PM


If you were in a coffee shop, and a man with obvious hysterical delusions was babbling about some kind of magical invisible men, and someone asked you: "What do you think about the subject matter this person is talking about and its consequences?" you'd probably say, "Well, it doesn't matter much to me, because it's just a crazy person talking about his hallucinations."

Were those man's babblings accepted as truth by nearly 2 billion people on this planet?

The answer would be the same, whether they were or weren't. There was a time when that man's babblings didn't exist, and another man's babblings were accepted as truth by billions. In another location a different man's babblings were accepted. There were babbles about the world being flat, about witches being prominent, about people being reborn, about the sun revolving around the earth, about virgin births and angels and flying horses and rainbow bridges and evil intergalactic emperors and all sorts of things. The fact that people have a tendency to get together and all start babbling about things can't be taken as reason to heed the babble, since they're always babbling about different things depending on when and where they live.

The only thing that's consistent is through time and space is those of us who don't babble, and one day I think none of us will babble and we'll look back and be somewhat embarrassed, as we are somewhat embarrassed about so many things in our history. That will be the real Revelation.

#37 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2363

Posted 18 July 2011 - 10:15 PM



So what would be sufficient evidence and why should God use your definition of "sufficient"?


Technically god has already provided evidence, see the bible for details.
Whether or not god would deem this evidence as sufficient is irrelevant. For many people this evidence is not sufficient, and by many we're talking about the vast majority of the human race, which is a far cry from:

And yet they probably accept all the historical events that have the same amount of proof, or even less. A bit hypocritical IMO, but whatever.


To answer these one by one:
Sufficient evidence? Well, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Even if Jesus appeared to descend from the sky, I'd be sceptical that it wasn't simply some advanced but natural technology. But for the sake of argument, let's say a message of non-terrestrial origin that correlated with what we know about god that provided information previously unknown to the human race. Basically, it's not that there's tonnes of evidence I dismiss, it's simply that there's no evidence to support the concept of a supernatural intelligence. Almost everything we know of can be explained without god and the stuff we can't? Well, every time we understand something, it turns out to have a natural rational explanation. Funny that.

Bible as evidence? The bible is true because it says it is. I don't even need to answer that.

Accepting historical events? Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The corollary to that is that I am willing to accept things I know to be possible with less proof. If you tell me you went to the shop, it's plausible. The holocaust has living witnesses. Further back there is documented evidence. Is it possible that <insert historical event here> never happened and some vast conspiracy? Sure, but it seems kinda unlikely. There is nothing in history that contradicts my experience of the world. Wars, famine, politics, all these things have happened in my lifetime, and I see no reason to doubt they happened in the past. OTOH, I know of no-one on earth who has seen the red sea part, or water turned into wine by any means other than fermenting grapes. It's far more likely that a few natural but unusual events (an unusually low tide perhaps) were exaggerated into the bible stories we know today.


To any religious person: If tomorrow God appeared to you and ordered you to sucrifice your children, would you do it? Or would you say "what you are commanding me to do is evil, so you are evil, therefore you are not my God, the omnibelovelent Creator. Not all spirits than can talk to humans are God". We know what Abraham did...

Since God cannot commit an evil act the whole issue is moot.

*sigh* We've had this argument before. Yahweh commits any number of acts that are despicable in the extreme, Isaac and Lot stories off the top off my head. You're suffering from such an inferiority complex that you think that whatever god does, you're not fit to judge it. It sounds like stockholm syndrome to me.

If I did find out tomorrow that yahweh was real, I'd hate him. Richard Morgan sums it up for me

Even if you could convince ..., against all the evidence, that there really was a god? He’d just see him as a threat to be eliminated. If god were demonstrably real? Guys like me would just be looking for ways to find him and burn him down.


if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#38 _moagstar_   Members   -  Reputation: 465

Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:02 AM

And yet they probably accept all the historical events that have the same amount of proof, or even less. A bit hypocritical IMO, but whatever.


I have a friend who can fly.
I have a friend who can drive.

Which of these statements requires the greater weight of evidence to convince someone of it's truth?


God does want everyone to accept the gift of salvation, but a gift cannot be forced onto people.


He just doesn't want it bad enough for the majority of the human race. Since there are some pretty simple things he could do which would prove his existence to non-believers.

#39 Tournicoti   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 683

Posted 19 July 2011 - 03:30 AM

I really don't understand why this topic has been posted in gamedev ....
What's the relationship between game developpement and the 'Revelation' ? :blink:

We don't care about God stuff here, at least I hope !

#40 _moagstar_   Members   -  Reputation: 465

Posted 19 July 2011 - 04:53 AM

I really don't understand why this topic has been posted in gamedev ....
What's the relationship between game developpement and the 'Revelation' ? :blink:

We don't care about God stuff here, at least I hope !



Games developers are gods ;-)




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