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What do you think about the Revelation?


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#41 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:18 AM

He just doesn't want it bad enough for the majority of the human race. Since there are some pretty simple things he could do which would prove his existence to non-believers.


Yea... performing miracles and sacrificing himself/his only son are totally too small. He should have to do something important.

The point isn't to prove his existence. All he wants is to be loved and for us to love. If we decide not to love and suffer his punishment because of it, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

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#42 VildNinja   Members   -  Reputation: 420

Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:52 AM


He just doesn't want it bad enough for the majority of the human race. Since there are some pretty simple things he could do which would prove his existence to non-believers.


Yea... performing miracles and sacrificing himself/his only son are totally too small. He should have to do something important.

I can't help but to think that it doesn't really count, when he just revived his son after three days. I think a lot of people would gladly sacrifice them selves for three days, if they could.

The point isn't to prove his existence. All he wants is to be loved and for us to love. If we decide not to love and suffer his punishment because of it, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

That's just cruel. I mean like dictator cruel, I'm sure that Kim Jong-il truly "loves" his country, and all its people. And the few who doesn't love him back, apparently got no one to blame but them selves, when they receives his punishment.

I know that the statement above is not the general understanding of Christianity - at least not in Northern Europe. But that statement is just purely cruel and egocentric.

#43 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:02 AM

I can't help but to think that it doesn't really count, when he just revived his son after three days. I think a lot of people would gladly sacrifice them selves for three days, if they could.

By crucifixion? It's not exactly an easy way to go.

That's just cruel. I mean like dictator cruel, I'm sure that Kim Jong-il truly "loves" his country, and all its people. And the few who doesn't love him back, apparently got no one to blame but them selves, when they receives his punishment.

is it cruel to send murderers and rapists to prison? What about petty thieves? Tax evaders? It's no different than any legal system in the world except it has the benefit of being omniscient and infinitely just.

#44 KidsLoveSatan   Members   -  Reputation: 471

Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:09 AM

God is a perfectly righteous being. If we want to live with him we need to become like him. Unfortunately we all have our weaknesses.

Yeah, you'd think he could've done a better job.

Sin makes us unclean and no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God.

This rule doesn't appear to apply to Satan.

#45 KidsLoveSatan   Members   -  Reputation: 471

Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:10 AM

is it cruel to send murderers and rapists to prison? What about petty thieves? Tax evaders? It's no different than any legal system in the world except it has the benefit of being omniscient and infinitely just.

Or people who collect sticks on the wrong day..

#46 VildNinja   Members   -  Reputation: 420

Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:21 AM

is it cruel to send murderers and rapists to prison? What about petty thieves? Tax evaders? It's no different than any legal system in the world except it has the benefit of being omniscient and infinitely just.


It's not cruel to punish those who do mean things to others, but to dictate a thought IS cruel. Free thoughts cannot be compared with the above mentioned actions. If we don't both agree to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, (in this case §2 and §18 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights) then yes you're right.

#47 _moagstar_   Members   -  Reputation: 465

Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:23 AM

Yea... performing miracles and sacrificing himself/his only son are totally too small. He should have to do something important.



Erm...yeah. I have never experienced a miracle and never seen a single shred of evidence that Jesus died for our sins, so there is at least one person he is failing. He could do a lot better than that if he really loves me, or is it just that he isn't omnipotent after all?


is it cruel to send murderers and rapists to prison




But sending murderers and rapists to heaven while peace activists burn in hell based on a point of belief is OK?

#48 Machaira   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1028

Posted 19 July 2011 - 08:24 AM

I really don't understand why this topic has been posted in gamedev ....
What's the relationship between game developpement and the 'Revelation' ? :blink:

We don't care about God stuff here, at least I hope !


The Lounge is for discussion of anything, game related or not.
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#49 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 19 July 2011 - 08:55 AM

Erm...yeah. I have never experienced a miracle and never seen a single shred of evidence that Jesus died for our sins, so there is at least one person he is failing. He could do a lot better than that if he really loves me, or is it just that he isn't omnipotent after all?

It's not his job to make you love him. That's established in genesis. It is our choice. It is God's greatest gift to humanity.

But sending murderers and rapists to heaven while peace activists burn in hell based on a point of belief is OK?

Why do you think murderers and rapists go to heaven without repenting in the first place?

#50 VildNinja   Members   -  Reputation: 420

Posted 19 July 2011 - 09:15 AM

@way2lazy2care
Though this was not actually formed as a question, I did intend it to be one:

If we don't both agree to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, (in this case §2 and §18 http://en.wikisource...of_Human_Rights) then yes you're right.


Do you hold deity higher than human rights? It's a very specific question, but I would like to know if we have any common world view of right and wrong, or if we're just missing each others points.

#51 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 19 July 2011 - 09:19 AM

Do you hold deity higher than human rights? It's a very specific question, but I would like to know if we have any common world view of right and wrong, or if we're just missing each others points.

Human rights as defined by humans would be quite a bit different than human rights as defined by humanity's creator don't you think

edit: I didn't read the rest of your quote to get the context of that till just now. You are totally free to do whatever you want. That doesn't mean you should be excused from the consequences.

Think of God as a guy with a really nice house and we are all born covered in mud. God says as long as you're a generally nice person, not dirty and you won't mess up his house you're more than welcome to come in. He even tells you how to clean yourself up. When you show up at his door you're dirty but a generally nice person. God says, "Go clean yourself up and you can come in," and you say, "nah I don't want to clean up. I'm good all covered in mud. now let me in. Not letting me in would be cruel. Forcing me to be clean to come into your house is totally against human rights. Just let me in."

#52 _moagstar_   Members   -  Reputation: 465

Posted 19 July 2011 - 09:53 AM

Why do you think murderers and rapists go to heaven without repenting in the first place?


Forgive me, but I was kind of under the impression that the way to salvation was through the belief and acceptance that Jesus died as our savior, not through repentance? So you can rape, murder do whatever despicable and sinful things you like, but so long as you believe Jesus died on that cross to cleanse all of our sins, you're good to go. On the other hand you can lead the kind of life which Jesus was a great proponent of (love thy neighbor, judge not, do violence to no man, live peaceably with all men etc. etc.) and burn in hell because you didn't believe that he died as our savior.


#53 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 19 July 2011 - 10:37 AM

Forgive me, but I was kind of under the impression that the way to salvation was through the belief and acceptance that Jesus died as our savior, not through repentance? So you can rape, murder do whatever despicable and sinful things you like, but so long as you believe Jesus died on that cross to cleanse all of our sins, you're good to go. On the other hand you can lead the kind of life which Jesus was a great proponent of (love thy neighbor, judge not, do violence to no man, live peaceably with all men etc. etc.) and burn in hell because you didn't believe that he died as our savior.


Well you were under the wrong impression if that's what you thought the majority of christians believe.

#54 _moagstar_   Members   -  Reputation: 465

Posted 19 July 2011 - 10:40 AM

Well you were under the wrong impression if that's what you thought the majority of christians believe.


Oh yeah?...

While various Christian denominations debate Christian theology and specifics, individual acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ as one's Savior is generally mandated or defined as the "key" to Christian salvation.



#55 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:14 AM


Well you were under the wrong impression if that's what you thought the majority of christians believe.


Oh yeah?...

While various Christian denominations debate Christian theology and specifics, individual acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ as one's Savior is generally mandated or defined as the "key" to Christian salvation.



did you read your whole link?

#56 rozz666   Members   -  Reputation: 611

Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:49 AM

Why are we even discussing consequences of stories that have no scientific value and no evidence to support them?
Why not discuss Greek Mythology? It's a more interesting and less bloody that Christian Mythology anyways :-)

#57 A Brain in a Vat   Members   -  Reputation: 313

Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:31 PM

In study after study there is found a clear and consistent connection between a lower IQ and religiosity. It is, therefore, no more wise to try to prove to Believers that they're wrong than it is to try to prove to a chimpanzee that eating one's own shit should be avoided.

#58 rozz666   Members   -  Reputation: 611

Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:52 PM

In study after study there is found a clear and consistent connection between a lower IQ and religiosity.


Curiously I've checked it. At least some studies support your claim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#Studies_comparing_religious_belief_and_I.Q

#59 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:21 PM

In study after study there is found a clear and consistent connection between a lower IQ and religiosity. It is, therefore, no more wise to try to prove to Believers that they're wrong than it is to try to prove to a chimpanzee that eating one's own shit should be avoided.

Seriously dude. Is it beyond your capability to refer to people as human adults rather than comparing them to delusional shit eating monkeys? You're coming from the side of the argument that is generally easier to argue and acting like a child is doing the argument no favors.

#60 A Brain in a Vat   Members   -  Reputation: 313

Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:25 PM

Seriously dude. Is it beyond your capability to refer to people as human adults rather than comparing them to delusional shit eating monkeys? You're coming from the side of the argument that is generally easier to argue and acting like a child is doing the argument no favors.

I didn't make the comparison you claim I made, actually. And I'm not trying to make an argument to convince you -- as I said in the statement you quoted, that's mostly futile. I was urging my fellow atheists to realize this instead of trying to convince believers.

And I never said the monkeys were delusional! Monkeys may drink wine, but they don't believe it turns to blood!




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