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What does GDNet think about my game engine?


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#81 KanonBaum   Members   -  Reputation: 277

Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:51 PM

I like how the thread is named "what does gdnet think about my game engine" but he's not liking what gdnet thinks about his game engine.

I wrote a short story once for fun. I showed it to my friends and family and I could tell right away they were not enjoying it. Their feedback was very vague and very unhelpful. I wanted to make it better but no one was explaining how I could. Then I went to gdnet and started a thread asking what they thought about my short story. Instantly, critical feedback was given to me on how to spruce my characters and strengthen the themes. Some suggested to start over in a new direction. These people had lots of experience in this field and if they didn't think I could have done any better, they would not have said anything.

But then I got pissed because no one praised my original effort, gave up, and became a dust bunny.

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I'm that imaginary number in the parabola of life.

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#82 mdwh   Members   -  Reputation: 889

Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:08 AM

Their feedback was very vague and very unhelpful. I wanted to make it better but no one was explaining how I could. Then I went to gdnet and started a thread asking what they thought about my short story. Instantly, critical feedback was given to me on how to spruce my characters and strengthen the themes. Some suggested to start over in a new direction. These people had lots of experience in this field and if they didn't think I could have done any better, they would not have said anything.

Yes there's good feedback and poor feedback - both of which I've seen in this thread.

("And then some people started telling me what kind of pen I should use, or saying I shouldn't be using the same size of paper that everyone else uses, and some people started telling me about the website rather than my actual story...")
http://erebusrpg.sourceforge.net/ - Erebus, Open Source RPG for Windows/Linux/Android
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.harman/conquests.html - Conquests, Open Source Civ-like Game for Windows/Linux

#83 mrbastard   Members   -  Reputation: 1573

Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:18 AM

So...... Did Phantom and ApocPiQ run out of IRL people to berate?

Because man.... a lot of that just came across as bullying to me. I'm sure it wasn't intended as such, but you guys are moderators and I expect more from you. You can be helpful and correct while also being friendly. Or if you can't.... maybe just don't post?

MODS, I AM DISAPPOINT.

Also: Hodgeman for mod. Consistently correct, informative and friendly. All at the same time!

(random opinions of a 10 year+ member)


#84 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2170

Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:36 AM

So...... Did Phantom and ApocPiQ run out of IRL people to berate?

Because man.... a lot of that just came across as bullying to me. I'm sure it wasn't intended as such, but you guys are moderators and I expect more from you. You can be helpful and correct while also being friendly. Or if you can't.... maybe just don't post?

MODS, I AM DISAPPOINT.

Also: Hodgeman for mod. Consistently correct, informative and friendly. All at the same time!

(random opinions of a 10 year+ member)


+1 for Hodgeman

#85 DarklyDreaming   Members   -  Reputation: 363

Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:45 AM

So...... Did Phantom and ApocPiQ run out of IRL people to berate?

Because man.... a lot of that just came across as bullying to me. I'm sure it wasn't intended as such, but you guys are moderators and I expect more from you. You can be helpful and correct while also being friendly. Or if you can't.... maybe just don't post?

MODS, I AM DISAPPOINT.

Also: Hodgeman for mod. Consistently correct, informative and friendly. All at the same time!

(random opinions of a 10 year+ member)


Huh? Where exactly did they start bullying anybody? Harsh criticism is hardly bullying or a personal attack. So, uhm?
"I will personally burn everything I've made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."
~ Gabe

"I don't mean to rush you but you are keeping two civilizations waiting!"
~ Cavil, BSG.
"If it's really important to you that other people follow your True Brace Style, it just indicates you're inexperienced. Go find something productive to do."
~ Bregma

"Well, you're not alone.

There's a club for people like that. It's called Everybody and we meet at the bar."

~ Antheus


#86 SteveDeFacto   Banned   -  Reputation: 109

Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:03 AM

So...... Did Phantom and ApocPiQ run out of IRL people to berate?

Because man.... a lot of that just came across as bullying to me. I'm sure it wasn't intended as such, but you guys are moderators and I expect more from you. You can be helpful and correct while also being friendly. Or if you can't.... maybe just don't post?

MODS, I AM DISAPPOINT.

Also: Hodgeman for mod. Consistently correct, informative and friendly. All at the same time!

(random opinions of a 10 year+ member)


I also think Hodgeman would make a good mod. He has been the most helpful user on GDNet. Every time he post a reply I always get the information I needed.

#87 mrbastard   Members   -  Reputation: 1573

Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:12 AM

Huh? Where exactly did they start bullying anybody? Harsh criticism is hardly bullying or a personal attack. So, uhm?


I repeat that I do not think it was ever intended as such, by either of them. And I agree that harsh criticism has a place on a technical forum.

I think the sheer volume of criticism, and in places apparent (but possibly not actual) venom gave me the overall impression that they rather enjoyed themselves, at the OP's expense.

I'll restate my own criticism, as it too could be construed as a personal attack, which really isn't fair of me:

While harsh criticism is a fundamental way of teaching technical topics, and while both Phantom and Apoch are certainly able teachers and both made some important points, the overall tone seemed to me as a disinterested observer to be overly combative. While there's nothing wrong with that in itself, I would prefer moderators to moderate their own tone. I am aware that my preference doesn't mean much, but felt strongly enough to post.

Hopefully that's closer to a fair criticism.


#88 SiCrane   Moderators   -  Reputation: 9624

Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:28 AM

I was not aware duplicating code instead of calling a function multiple times would actually somehow make the program run slower...

This thread has generated a lot of noise, so I apologize if this has already been addressed.

Modern processors can operate on data much faster than they can load it from memory, and program instructions are included in this data; to execute code you first need to load it from memory. It's frequently the case that instructions you've executed once you'll execute again, so the processor stores those instructions in a faster kind of memory called an instruction cache, which has a finite size, so storing new instructions generally means dumping old instructions. If you duplicate code then the processor needs to load all those duplicated instructions separately from memory multiple times. In comparison, if you call the same function multiple times then it's more likely that the instructions will already been in cache and you'll get a performance boost compared to loading from main memory every time. And again, the cache is finite in size, so if you duplicate code segments manually you may also be pushing out of the cache instructions you'll want to use again soon.

That's the simple explanation of the concept anyways. There are also issues like multiple levels of cache, shared data and instruction caches, cache lines, associativity and so on. There are also times when duplicating code may create a local performance benefit; however, it's generally best to use a profiler or profile guided optimizer evaluate those conditions - and those tools are much better at telling you what code should have be inlined but weren't than they are at telling you what code was duplicated but shouldn't have been.

#89 SteveDeFacto   Banned   -  Reputation: 109

Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:35 AM


I was not aware duplicating code instead of calling a function multiple times would actually somehow make the program run slower...

This thread has generated a lot of noise, so I apologize if this has already been addressed.

Modern processors can operate on data much faster than they can load it from memory, and program instructions are included in this data; to execute code you first need to load it from memory. It's frequently the case that instructions you've executed once you'll execute again, so the processor stores those instructions in a faster kind of memory called an instruction cache, which has a finite size, so storing new instructions generally means dumping old instructions. If you duplicate code then the processor needs to load all those duplicated instructions separately from memory multiple times. In comparison, if you call the same function multiple times then it's more likely that the instructions will already been in cache and you'll get a performance boost compared to loading from main memory every time. And again, the cache is finite in size, so if you duplicate code segments manually you may also be pushing out of the cache instructions you'll want to use again soon.

That's the simple explanation of the concept anyways. There are also issues like multiple levels of cache, shared data and instruction caches, cache lines, associativity and so on. There are also times when duplicating code may create a local performance benefit; however, it's generally best to use a profiler or profile guided optimizer evaluate those conditions - and those tools are much better at telling you what code should have be inlined but weren't than they are at telling you what code was duplicated but shouldn't have been.


That's good information and I'll take that into account whenever I get around to optimizing.

#90 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7393

Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:06 PM

So...... Did Phantom and ApocPiQ run out of IRL people to berate?


Nope, I've got plenty left personally... and compared to the way I interact with some of my friends this is mild...

Because man.... a lot of that just came across as bullying to me. I'm sure it wasn't intended as such, but you guys are moderators and I expect more from you. You can be helpful and correct while also being friendly.


Yes, you can... but then again the OP can also take the feedback with a little more grace then effectively going "lalalalala you are wrong... I can't heard you" to very sound feedback from someone who has much more experiance.

I can't speak for ApocPiQ but I adjust my tone depending on the poster's replies and his replies weren't "friendly" thus I adjust mine accordingly removing the "friendly" element and instead going for direct to the point statements with no emotional tone behind them at all.

Given that in the past I have referred to someone directly as a 'moron' on this site trust me when I say I could have been much harsher.

Also he happens to have picked up on a pet peeve of mine; someone referring to their hardly working renderer as a 'next generation engine' is... well, stupid frankly. Which is why I pushed on why he considered it 'next gen' and got directly to some vague thoughts about a terrain system (which I did say was a good idea) before he went all "lalalalala I can't hear you".

Frankly everyone needs to stop referring to their little pet 'engine' as 'next generation' because as someone currently working on the rendering side of one for my day job I can tell you this much; in 99.9% of cases, including this one, it certainly isn't "next generation"... most are hardly "this generation".. and I don't see why this realisation should be sugar coated tbh; self dillusion isn't going to help you progress.

(and there is always the 'report this post' buttons if you think someone has stepped out of line, or indeed the senior mods could be emailed about it seniormods[at]gamedev.net if memory serves)

#91 mikeman   Members   -  Reputation: 2248

Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:42 PM

Heh. Anyone can see here that there are some members who are giving constructive criticism, and there are some others who are taking delight in making the OP feel bad; in fact if I know phantom(which I do, as a notorious jerk), that's pretty much the only reason he posted('what makes it next gen? what makes it next gen? I'll keep repeating it even though it's completely irrelevant to anything just to point out that I am working for about 1 month and a half in a so-called 'next gen engine' myself and you don't! Hurrrr!").

(Seriously, he already mentioned it twice in this thread - we get it dude!)

Pretty sad if you consider the state of the community some years ago, which was hobbyists all around the world supporting one each other(not 'wow, this is great!" meaningless comments mind you, that's not what I'm talking about).

Whatever, dudes. SteveDeFacto, don't let them keep you down man. You have what you have and the video looks decent. Keep working on it, take the advice from this thread into consideration, and I expect some even better videos in the future.

#92 ApochPiQ   Moderators   -  Reputation: 15980

Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:48 PM

So...... Did Phantom and ApocPiQ run out of IRL people to berate?

Because man.... a lot of that just came across as bullying to me. I'm sure it wasn't intended as such, but you guys are moderators and I expect more from you. You can be helpful and correct while also being friendly. Or if you can't.... maybe just don't post?

MODS, I AM DISAPPOINT.

Also: Hodgeman for mod. Consistently correct, informative and friendly. All at the same time!

(random opinions of a 10 year+ member)



I said in pretty much every post that I thought the OP's work was something to be proud of, that he should continue working on it, and so on.

I'm at a loss for how to be much more "friendly" while still being honest about my opinion of the code - which, by the way, was asked for by the OP. It's not like I just showed up and started railing on some random project. He asked for opinions, I gave mine.

I'd love to hear how you would provide criticism of flawed work while being "more friendly" about it.



#93 SteveDeFacto   Banned   -  Reputation: 109

Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:49 PM


So...... Did Phantom and ApocPiQ run out of IRL people to berate?


Nope, I've got plenty left personally... and compared to the way I interact with some of my friends this is mild...

Because man.... a lot of that just came across as bullying to me. I'm sure it wasn't intended as such, but you guys are moderators and I expect more from you. You can be helpful and correct while also being friendly.


Yes, you can... but then again the OP can also take the feedback with a little more grace then effectively going "lalalalala you are wrong... I can't heard you" to very sound feedback from someone who has much more experiance.

I can't speak for ApocPiQ but I adjust my tone depending on the poster's replies and his replies weren't "friendly" thus I adjust mine accordingly removing the "friendly" element and instead going for direct to the point statements with no emotional tone behind them at all.

Given that in the past I have referred to someone directly as a 'moron' on this site trust me when I say I could have been much harsher.

Also he happens to have picked up on a pet peeve of mine; someone referring to their hardly working renderer as a 'next generation engine' is... well, stupid frankly. Which is why I pushed on why he considered it 'next gen' and got directly to some vague thoughts about a terrain system (which I did say was a good idea) before he went all "lalalalala I can't hear you".

Frankly everyone needs to stop referring to their little pet 'engine' as 'next generation' because as someone currently working on the rendering side of one for my day job I can tell you this much; in 99.9% of cases, including this one, it certainly isn't "next generation"... most are hardly "this generation".. and I don't see why this realisation should be sugar coated tbh; self dillusion isn't going to help you progress.

(and there is always the 'report this post' buttons if you think someone has stepped out of line, or indeed the senior mods could be emailed about it seniormods[at]gamedev.net if memory serves)


In real life you must be a very angry person if after all of this time you still can't control yourself in an online forum... I actually know you a lot better than you know me. I've been on this site for a lot longer than my account says I have. You've always been a bully and yet every time I've seen you get rated down, the next thing I know the down rating magically disappears... Diplomatic immunity I presume?

#94 SteveDeFacto   Banned   -  Reputation: 109

Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:59 PM


So...... Did Phantom and ApocPiQ run out of IRL people to berate?

Because man.... a lot of that just came across as bullying to me. I'm sure it wasn't intended as such, but you guys are moderators and I expect more from you. You can be helpful and correct while also being friendly. Or if you can't.... maybe just don't post?

MODS, I AM DISAPPOINT.

Also: Hodgeman for mod. Consistently correct, informative and friendly. All at the same time!

(random opinions of a 10 year+ member)



I said in pretty much every post that I thought the OP's work was something to be proud of, that he should continue working on it, and so on.

I'm at a loss for how to be much more "friendly" while still being honest about my opinion of the code - which, by the way, was asked for by the OP. It's not like I just showed up and started railing on some random project. He asked for opinions, I gave mine.

I'd love to hear how you would provide criticism of flawed work while being "more friendly" about it.



I don't really have a problem with anything you said though this part may have been a bit harsh: "My point is that your ship is not just sinking, it's on fire, carrying a zombie plague, about to be struck by a comet, and populated by Justin Bieber clones."

#95 ApochPiQ   Moderators   -  Reputation: 15980

Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:02 PM

That was supposed to be a joke, as indicated by the obviously ridiculous hyperbole ;-)

I can see how it could have come across a bit nasty, though.

#96 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7393

Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:34 PM

in fact if I know phantom(which I do, as a notorious jerk),


All you know of me is that I point out when you are wrong (which happens to have been often in the past, having not interacted with you in some time I couldn't tell if you this remains the case) and that I don't take anything remotely seriously on IRC and will do what amuses me there. If this makes me a 'jerk' then I'm ok with it :)

that's pretty much the only reason he posted('what makes it next gen? what makes it next gen? I'll keep repeating it even though it's completely irrelevant to anything just to point out that I am working for about 1 month and a half in a so-called 'next gen engine' myself and you don't! Hurrrr!").


The OP posted an engine billed as 'next generation', I wanted to know what made it next generation, thus I asked until I got an answer.

The reason I brought up what I do at work is to point out that I've got experiance in engine development and to give the OP some perspective on what goes into making an engine.

#97 mikeman   Members   -  Reputation: 2248

Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:44 PM

The reason I brought up what I do at work is to point out that I've got experiance in engine development...


Really? Do you have anything you have made engine-development wise to show us? Because IIRC you were laid off from your previous job, and you don't even have 2 months in CodeMasters(yeah, I follow the gossip...). What exact experience do *you* have in engine development? You have anything similar to the OP's project you can show for yourself?

#98 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7393

Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:47 PM

In real life you must be a very angry person if after all of this time you still can't control yourself in an online forum... I actually know you a lot better than you know me. I've been on this site for a lot longer than my account says I have. You've always been a bully and yet every time I've seen you get rated down, the next thing I know the down rating magically disappears... Diplomatic immunity I presume?


Unless you have met me in real life then you don't know me at all regardless of how long you have been here :)

No, I am direct and to the point; to 'bully' someone I would have to follow them around the site constantly pointing out why they are "wrong", and frankly I have better things to do with my time upto and including sitting around doing nothing :) For example while I have seen and looked at your posts on this site have I commented? No. Have I down rated you here or in another thread I've not commented on? No.

If you consider 'pointing out someone is wrong' as bullying... well, I have no words, but you need to develop a slightly thicker skin...

Also feel free not to throw accusations around; mods to not get any form of immunity and my rating hasn't been 'adjusted' after the fact.. in fact it has dropped a few points in the last couple of days.. and due to what I can assume is some form bug I can see who has down rated me (s'up Hodgman and mrbastard in this thread alone) and guess what; I haven't down rated them back.

None of which makes your code any better or your engine any more 'next gen'.. but hey, if attacking me makes you feel better then carry on! It amuses me that I can get under your skin with such ease :)

#99 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2435

Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:51 PM

Wow, there seems to be a decidedly childish tone going on here. If you want to succeed in any field, you should embrace criticism, especially when it comes from people who are clearly more experienced than you.

I have a friend who's an amateur playwright. He recently paid to have his play evaluated by a professional theatre group. You're getting their time for free.
I think both Phantom and ApochPiQ gave useful advice and valid criticisms. In fact, ApochPiQ in particular seemed to put a reasonable amount of time and effort into looking at the code. Both prefaced their comments with "it's a good start, but..". Honestly, I really don't know how much hand holding you need....
if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#100 DarklyDreaming   Members   -  Reputation: 363

Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:57 PM

Wow, there seems to be a decidedly childish tone going on here. If you want to succeed in any field, you should embrace criticism, especially when it comes from people who are clearly more experienced than you.

I have a friend who's an amateur playwright. He recently paid to have his play evaluated by a professional theatre group. You're getting their time for free.
I think both Phantom and ApochPiQ gave useful advice and valid criticisms. In fact, ApochPiQ in particular seemed to put a reasonable amount of time and effort into looking at the code. Both prefaced their comments with "it's a good start, but..". Honestly, I really don't know how much hand holding you need....


^ This guy gets it.

Look, nobody came in here with a "LOL! THIS SUCKS!" attitude - everybody chimed in with helpful advice and legitimate questions; can't handle that? Well, don't ask for criticism then - people are providing their time for free and there is no need to be an ass about it when someone tells you that what you've done is cool, but isn't anything special and is in need of a ton of work.

Which reminds me, I ought to get back to work! Oh wait, it's midnight. Well, nighty night everyone - and children, try to behave! Posted Image
"I will personally burn everything I've made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."
~ Gabe

"I don't mean to rush you but you are keeping two civilizations waiting!"
~ Cavil, BSG.
"If it's really important to you that other people follow your True Brace Style, it just indicates you're inexperienced. Go find something productive to do."
~ Bregma

"Well, you're not alone.

There's a club for people like that. It's called Everybody and we meet at the bar."

~ Antheus





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