@ sunandshadow (#45)

"0.8 - Gillian's scholarship, Michael's fight and arrest, the leaking of the plan, and Mother Risa's heart-break all at the same time." is not meant to be funny. This plot point is the "All is lost" plot point. I know that "All is lost" could be done in a funny way but in this case I wasn't trying to be funny. This is actually a plot point meant to hit hard emotionally. The problem with that plot is that the emotion wasn't recovering fast enough. The way I see it, the bigger problem is 0.9. Plot point 0.9 recovers too slowly. In plot point 0.9, the revelation (the missing information that will save everyone), needs to come right after so that the sadness is not prolonged.

Ah. I am not a big fan of "darkest moment" or "all is lost" plot points, I tend to instead use "out of time/out of options" for a moment of doubt that there is any way to solve the story problem. Then the character either thinks of a new option or finally faces the option they have been avoiding, either way requiring more courage and resolve than the character usually has. But "darkest moment" plot points can be very effective, including in comedy. Two of the recent great comedy movies I watched, Megamind and Despicable Me, both had a very low point; I felt that it was a little too low when it happened in both cases, but it definitely helped make the ending happier. But I'd say that the problem with point 9 is not that it is slow, the problem is that I cannot guess how point 9 solves the problem in 8 to make everyone happy again. With the earlier points they are very brief but because I am familiar with child-as-matchmaker comedy I can guess how each would be done and what each would mean in the context of that type of story. But because the way a story problem is solved is usually a surprise not predictable from the earlier story I can't guess without more explanation how point 9 solves the problem.

The woman seems soul-less because of what I feel from the description. It is not about what you feel about the character but what I could feel from reading the description. When I read it I don't feel her love of anyone including the child that she wanted to have. It sounded like the child was some kind of status symbol she wanted to get, instead of a human being with their own future. The following are some specific signs that made me feel this way:

P1S1: A single woman [Omilla] decides she wants a child and is secure enough financially and socially to raise a child by herself.
P1S2: She'd really rather have a loving mate who would help her raise a child, but she's failed to find that for years and she's tired of waiting.
P1S3: She'll take one last shot at it - there is a town nearby which has strong local beliefs and traditions about soulmates and helping them find each other.
P1S4: If this succeeds, wonderful, she'll get her baby because her soulmate will sire it.
P1S5: But if (when) it fails, that town is a good vacationing place where she can go to a bar and pick up a one-night-stand to sire her baby.

P1S1: A single woman [Omilla] decides she wants a child and is secure enough financially and socially to raise a child by herself.
P1S2: She'd really rather have a loving mate who would help her raise a child, but she's failed to find that for years and she's tired of waiting.
P1S3: She'll take one last shot at it - there is a town nearby which has strong local beliefs and traditions about soulmates and helping them find each other.
P1S4: If this succeeds, wonderful, she'll get her baby because her soulmate will sire it.
P1S5: But if (when) it fails, that town is a good vacationing place where she can go to a bar and pick up a one-night-stand to sire her baby.

What I read from what you wrote: (Disclaimer: My English is not good and I don't necessarily know what a word means to a native speaker. I am just talking about what I felt when I read it.)

P1S1: A single woman [Omilla] decides she wants a child and is secure enough financially and socially to raise a child by herself.

To me this sentence focused on whether Omilla could afford to have a child. It didn't tell me anything about whether she loves children or why she wanted a child, or what a child would mean for her. To me it sounds really wrong. Ever heard about the phrase that describes a child as "the crystal of love", or the equivalent saying in English that means children is what you get when you know what love is. When I read this sentence, I feel Omilla is trying to buy a new car or a new house. I don't feel that she is seeing a child as a person. I feel that a child to her is some kind of status symbol, something she wants to get to make herself feel complete. I feel that she concerns less about the well-being of the child, but more on whether she could get one.


P1S2: She'd really rather have a loving mate who would help her raise a child, but she's failed to find that for years and she's tired of waiting.

When I read this I feel she had no concept of what love is or what relation it is between a husband and a wife, a father and his child, and a mother with the same child. When I read this I see the relation being like this: Lover ----- Omilla ----- Child. Basically, the "lover" is some kind of third person with the primary job being to love her. The child is hers, not the Lover's. However, she would want the Lover to help her out to raise the kid. I feel that the sentence focused on describing the Lover's role in helping Omilla instead of helping the child. It sounded as if she assumed that the father of the child would not care. Omilla is trying to have a child when she seems to have no value and no concept that a child and the father are part of a family. I also found the description that she's "tired of waiting" sounds pretty bad. Part of the reason is that you haven't stated why she wanted a child. So right now, in my mind, Omilla is someone irritated and annoyed that she doesn't have a child, and she is trying to get it done to free herself of that anxiety with little consideration on what it means for the father and the child. I see no sign that she thought from their perspectives. She was only thinking for herself.


P1S3: She'll take one last shot at it - there is a town nearby which has strong local beliefs and traditions about soulmates and helping them find each other.

When we hear about people trying to have kids, usually that means a couple is trying, there is a mutual agreement between the couple that they want a child and they are trying to have one. In this case, I think "one last shot" just sounds too opportunistic to me for the context, partly because you have not described how it would be like for her to continue without a lover or a child. So far, the description didn't point to her being lonely or being sad. It only sounds like a child is some sort of accessory to her that she wants to win at a casino by rolling the dice.


P1S4: If this succeeds, wonderful, she'll get her baby because her soulmate will sire it.

My English is poor. When I read the word "sire" I think of horse breeding. I have never heard of human describe a father as someone that sires the child. According to the description, I feel that "soulmate" is not a term that Omilla is familiar with. It is a foreign concept to her, and I feel that at this point in the plot, she is using that them as a label. I feel no sense that Omilla has a clue what a soulmate is or how a pair of soulmates mean for each other. Here, there is no sense of romance or love, just the mechanical requirement to get something done. Although you use the word 'soulmate', when I read it I feel that the soulmate is some kind of disposable object, once the purpose is served, it is okay to let go. She cares more about her getting a baby somehow than the life the have with a soulmate. It feels so weird because the statement is so void of life.


P1S5: But if (when) it fails, that town is a good vacationing place where she can go to a bar and pick up a one-night-stand to sire her baby.

Here I have the same feeling that everything are just objects for her to get her desires. She is void of love and feeling for others. All she things about is how to get herself what she wants. Although this sentence raises the question, "If she really didn't care, and she is so confident that she could get a one-night-stand to get a child, then isn't it the proof that she cares about having a good lover and a good father?" To that I feel two things: 1) Her desire to look for a lover and a father doesn't mean that she care about them, but their service to her. 2) You can write many motivations and situation, but having them written doesn't make them believable. In this case you can write that she is loving and considerate, but I don't feel it because things didn't add up. It sounds more like a forced assertion than the truth.



I am not trying to contest the psychological urges to have child. But in my use of words, urges, desires, emotion, being creative, and the ability to plan are not the determining characteristic of a soul. I know every time I post I am popping up some definition. These definitions are subjected to updates. But for now, I think that a soul is a mind that cares about other people. And I see these degrees of caring:

Level 1) Care about yourself
Level 2) Care about your kids
Level 3) Care about people who can help you
Level 4) Care about other people
Level 5) Care about your enemies

At level 1 you get the 'selfish people'. At level 2, you get the 'motherly love'. At level 3 you get the 'comrade love'. At level 4 you get the 'altruists'. At level 5 you get the 'saints'. This is a pretty bad concept to disclose because on this scale, being a mother who loves your kids doesn't make you that great. It is a message pretty hard to swallow for people believe motherly love is the greatest. To be fair though, you can't compare that motherly love to a typical relation between friends. Instead you need to compare that to someone who is willing, or at least did not give up after an investment, to help a friend while losing mobility, losing sleep, losing money, and risking their life. You would need to compare that to defenders that risks their lives not to make a living, but because they want to protect the people that they don't know and in no way would help them. Are these people insane? No, they do it because they care.

From the description I felt that Omilla is at Level 1.


* * *

I want to reply for (#41) but I ran out of time. I replied this first because the follow up for (#41) is less useful compared to this for (#45) because if you agree with it you could start editing or redesign, and it allows others to see what I meant so that they could post their views.
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This is very interesting. I think this difference of interpretation is partly cultural but also my fault in that I was lazy - I did not describe why the main character wanted a child because I find that a difficult thing to describe. I don't feel that a child who isn't yet born can be loved as an individual, so I don't find love an appropriate word to use for the intense emotion of wanting to have a child. Instead I see the urge to have a child as being an urge to be helpful and an urge to move from a cold pointless existence to one which contributes something positive and warm to the world. Half-way like the urge to become a nurse and half-way like the urge to create beautiful art. It is indeed irrelevant to any men because it is irrelevant to gender; a man could make exactly the same choice to become a loving single father. [This is also said to Joe, I did not intend any misandry because I would indeed write the same story with the genders changed about. That's quite an interesting challenge actually, I feel a story idea starting to brew...] And the urge to have a child is completely separate from the desire for passionate love which she wanted for a long time but has all but given up on. If the father of the child is someone the woman loves, this would be tempting but unnecessary icing on the cake which is already sweet enough.

I intended her to be on the boundary between level 3 and 4 because a theme of the story is about balancing personal desire with moral treatment of others. Personally I don't like characters who are too nice because I think the ideal person needs to have a firm sense of self and balance helping others and helping the self. This might be a cultural point - in American and British culture it is a common problem for women to become depressed because they try to be too selfless and then feel guilty for asking others to give anything to them. Many women's fiction stories in the past few decades have a theme of "finding oneself". But this is not limited to women, it also appears in stories about men who start out very meek and unable to assert themselves because they fear being rude or aggressive, and over the course of the story they learn to consider themselves and their desires worthwhile and assertiveness the healthiest kind of attitude, and an attitude others will find likable and praise-worthy in them.

The other cultural part is what Joe mentions, it's very common for people in American culture to be criticized for creating a child without the economic resources to give that child a good upbringing. It is considered shameful and the height of irresponsibility for anyone poor to have a child. It is also considered mildly irresponsible for anyone under about 25 or who has been with their partner for less than about 3 years to have a child because the social context of a young person or a newly relationship isn't stable. This is a big change from many traditional cultures and religions where couples are supposed to marry young and have children immediately. On the other hand, while choosing to have a child when that child could not be guaranteed a good i.e. middle class upbringing is widely criticized, the only case in which a single woman choosing to become a mother is praised is the case where the woman is mature, capable and socially supported by other capable people whether servants or friends/relatives, and financially well-off. The TV show Murphy Brown was a famous example of this. More recently women in the 30-40 range who have been unable to find a husband but want a child and seek a boytoy or one-night-stand to accomplish the pregnancy are called cougars. So my intent with emphasizing that Omilla at first waited and hoped to fall in love with a man who would be her husband and the father of her children, and after giving up on that was careful to make sure that she could afford to raise a child well, is to show that she is responsible and conscientious, both in general and specifically toward the child she wants to have and be the loving mother of.

I'll also add a brief note on the word sire since I find this interesting. In modern usage sire is indeed most relevant to horse breeding. It's not a disrespectful term because a sire is carefully selected for good traits that he will hopefully pass on to his offspring. The human equivalent would be sperm donor. However I was imagining the story in a historical fantasy setting where sperm banks do not exist and the phrase "sperm donor" would be an anachronism. The word sire was historically used in English to mean both people and animals and was not considered impolite. The term sire meant father in the biological sense, while the term father emphasized the social role of parenting. Kings and lords also were referred to as Sire because they were metaphorically the father of the people under their military, legal, and financial protection and leadership, while the term Father was instead reserved for religious leaders who supposedly parented and taught the souls of the people under their religious leadership (especially in a Catholic context).

(Continue from #40, re: #41)

"A car was about to go through the car wash. In the car, there were a man and a woman. The man was the driver. The woman was the front passenger. She was looking up and out her window, while the man was pushing the button to start the car wash. After closing his window, the wheels of the car was locked. As the car was entering the car wash, he closed his eyes to rest. The car was in the car wash for a couple minutes, when it came out on the other side. The woman still had the same pose, looking up and out her window. The man's eyes were just opening as if he dozed off inside the car wash."

She paused and said, "That was it. It was pretty short and neither of them spoke. But it must have some significant meaning because it kept on repeating. What do you think it means?"

I thought:

a) The couple had a fight.
b) Who was the shadow?
c) What was the weather?
d) What kind of car was it?
e) Were they wearing seat belts?
f) Something happened inside the car wash.

I asked, "Who was the shadow?"

I used to think that Skyle had a problem describing what she saw inside people's minds. However, I have learned that she does not always remember what she saw, and sometimes what she saw was so ambiguous that all she knew was what she said. But this time, she seemed too careless. She didn't even mention which character was the shadow. She said,

"I couldn't tell because they were in the shade of the car. But since the scene kept on repeating, I think there was something abnormal about it." she asked, "If you were to guess, who do you think it was?"

I thought:
a) The woman, because she was the passive one. Shadows usually have passive minds.
b) The woman, because the man closed his eyes.
c) The man, because the woman was not looking at him
d) The man, because he was not looking at the woman
e) Both, because they were equally shaded.
f) Neither, because they were equally shaded.
g)

I said, "There was no shadow there, wasn't it? You saw the man pushing the button. If he was a shadow, you would have seen it. Since they had the same shade once his window was closed, you knew that the woman was also not a shadow. You kept seeing the same scene because you kept going back to see it."

Skyle's face looked flustered. It was her caught-red-handed expression. She wasn't angry, she just felt stupid for realizing that that was what happened. I said,

"That's okay. If I could go into people's mind I would be curious too. I would probably spend the whole day doing it and never come out until I have to."

"I'm a really bad girl, ain't I?"
"Isn't that obvious?"
"But I still want to know why that scene kept on repeating."
"Whatever it means, it is that person's secret. You are not supposed to know it, so just let it go and move on to the next one."

Skyle took a deep breath. Then there was a somewhat awkward silence. I was expecting her to say something, but she didn't. We were just going back and forth on the swings.
Her eyebrows were level, her eyes were cast down, her lips were slightly parted at first, but soon turned into a light smile.

I thought:
a) I said something wrong and Skyle found it funny.
b) Skyle wanted to tell me something but didn't know how.
c) Skyle wanted to tell me something but haven't decided whether to.
d) Skyle decided to go back to uncover the couple's secret regardless.
e) Skyle had a secret that she wasn't going to tell.
f) Skyle was happy not knowing their secret.
g) Skyle had a shadow that had just disappeared.

I wonder if it's possible for a relationship to have a shadow if neither of the individuals involved do. But I'd pick D, or that although she was annoyed to not know, she resolved not to investigate because it wasn't appropriate.

(Re:)


"Whatever it means, it is that person's secret. You are not supposed to know it, so just let it go and move on to the next one."

Skyle took a deep breath. Then there was a somewhat awkward silence. I was expecting her to say something, but she didn't. We were just going back and forth on the swings. Her eyebrows were level, her eyes were cast down, her lips were slightly parted at first, but soon turned into a light smile.

I thought:
a) I said something wrong and Skyle found it funny.
b) Skyle wanted to tell me something but didn't know how.
c) Skyle wanted to tell me something but haven't decided whether to.
d) Skyle decided to go back to uncover the couple's secret regardless.
e) Skyle had a secret that she wasn't going to tell.
f) Skyle was happy not knowing their secret.
g) Skyle had a shadow that had just disappeared.

I didn't know why she smiled, but somehow I didn't really care why. People always ask why people are happy, but happiness needs no reason. Being happy is the normal way to be. It is the feeling of a grateful breath. It comes with the state of mind that wants nothing more than what it has. Skyle stopped swinging and said,

"Actually, I don't want to keep looking anymore. Do you know, most people are happy, including those that have shadows? At least that is how I come to see them when I see their shadows. I no longer feel sad for them, I no longer understand why they would feel sad. When I see them, I no longer feel intrigued to solve them. Instead, I just want to hug them and tell them, 'Do you know? it's okay,' but no one would understand, and I no longer remember how I got to where I am."

She looked at me with her smile, then continued,

"Solving shadows and knowing the truth didn't make me helpful. The Skyle you know has become completely useless to anyone."

This time, her eyebrows became slanted downward. She was still smiling, but it was no longer the light smile she had. This expression had a different meaning.

I said,
a) "Don't stop now--if you stop I would have nothing to write..."
b) "You went too far ahead--you need to slow down so people could catch up."
c)

I got off the swing. She got off the swing. I held her in my arms and said,

"And that's okay too..."

Her hands loosely hooked on the back of my shoulders.
She closed her eyes and fell asleep on me.

* * *

A car was about to go through a car wash.
A man was in the driver's seat.
A woman was in the front passenger seat.
She was looking at the reflection of the man in her window.

She saw that he pushed the button.
She saw that he closed his window.
She felt that the wheels were locked.
She saw he closed his eyes
As the car was entering the car wash.

The water and the rotating brushes were making a storm.
In the reflection, she saw that he was asleep.

She turned her head to look at the sleeping man.
She looked at his closed eyes.
She looked at his hands resting on his knees.
She looked at his closed eyes again.

Quietly, she brushed off the seat belt on her shoulder.
She placed her other hand carefully to support herself, as she leaned toward the man.
Inches before the man's face, the woman parted her lips, but stopped,
as if something was holding her back.

She was about to close her eyes but:
a) She saw the light from the exit of the car wash.
b) She saw that the man was waking up.
c) She noticed someone in the backseat.