45 replies to this topic

[Zethariel]

This could go somewhere. Having the player choose by himself when and how much to "delevel" his character would make for a SMASHING moral dillema.

Let's assume the game has side-quests. In some of them, people will be cursed by this "serpent". And yeah, to complete the side-quest, the player will have to read a passage of the book, do some stuff, and help the character. The character might die before he reaches the main objective -- whatever that is, but I'm assuming it's leading the girl to a point where she can be reuinited with her mother or something (after all, the mother wouldn't want a husband who is near death, aye? So the romance part is dead in this scenario.).

So, we have a lot of moral brainwashing, and the player sparingly using the book, whereas he has to strike a ballance between the main objective, some side-quests (would have to have some significant rewards to that, like helping the player in the final battle or smthing, providing some key item or whatnot) and the increasing difficulty of mobs. Huh, that speaks as a trully player dependant game for me -- although my idea with side-quests would make for a lot of frustration, due to players making bad decisions and the game becoming way too hard to finish it at some point, or the player not feeling compelled to do anything about the side-quests. But adding a scaling enviroment that would stay on the right level regardless of player decisions would be nice.

But as Konidias said, you are still doing the same scheme, save for the grinding (the story will advance the player's state). The story has to be really tight if you wish to pull this mechanic off -- give it a good thought

[JTippetts]

I agree with Zethariel. Given the additional clarification regarding the book and the actual story reasons for doing this de-leveling, it seems to have potential. The important thing for me, I think, would be that I must have the choice of whether or not to accept the weakening based on the rewards it would offer. It would provide a trade-off, and trade-offs are what good RPGs are about. However, if I had to accept the weakening at any given point, ie there being no choice but for me to accept it in every situation, that would be nothing but annoyance for me. The trick will be in making the player feel like he actually is progressing, even with the accumulation of age from reading the book.

[DarklyDreaming]

So, basically, a ticking clock element?

[Cap'n VG]

Isn't this how RPGs already work?

Monsters get tougher to beat farther along in the game. You are just showing this by decreasing the player stats instead of increasing the monster stats.

Overall it is exactly the same thing though.

It may sound like it being the same but actually it isn't. In many RPG's players have to do a lot of frustrating things like getting armor or buying items and so on but this game completely removes that part because the major part is using only magic both offensive and defensive.

Let's assume that you have say 300 MP. with this MP you can learn magic as much as you want providing it doesn't exceed to more than 300. You can learn any five kinds of magic using the Wizard library. And this game isn't like combat based. It also has action elements in it.

Ok just think for a moment and ask yourself will any player enjoy the leveling process. Won't they get frustrated leveling up just to defeat one boss? Won't they get irritated when they face random enemies after every 10 seconds like FF2? My idea is for those people to convince them that RPG are also so damm good if they can wait for the rewards they will get. I feel 'Role' isn't going well in RPG's.

But still I am thankful to all of you for saying that this has potential. Even my college sir says that it has potential. Hopefully I'll get recognition for this.

[FLeBlanc]

It sounds to me like you just don't like RPGs. So why are you making one? Who says that doing things like "getting armor or buying items" are frustrating? I certainly don't think that, not by any stretch. I also love the thrill of leveling up, of getting new toys to play with, not having toys taken away; we are all just kids inside, and what kid likes to have their toys taken away? Maybe the idea does have merit. Personally, I just don't see it.

[Cap'n VG]

It sounds to me like you just don't like RPGs. So why are you making one? Who says that doing things like "getting armor or buying items" are frustrating? I certainly don't think that, not by any stretch. I also love the thrill of leveling up, of getting new toys to play with, not having toys taken away; we are all just kids inside, and what kid likes to have their toys taken away? Maybe the idea does have merit. Personally, I just don't see it.

I love RPG. My only concern is to convince those who hate rpgs.

[Acharis]

It sounds to me like you just don't like RPGs. So why are you making one? Who says that doing things like "getting armor or buying items" are frustrating? I certainly don't think that, not by any stretch. I also love the thrill of leveling up, of getting new toys to play with, not having toys taken away; we are all just kids inside, and what kid likes to have their toys taken away? Maybe the idea does have merit. Personally, I just don't see it.

I love RPG. My only concern is to convince those who hate rpgs.

What for? There is enough playerbase for RPGs, I would understand if it was fishing simulator genre or something even more niche. But for RPG you don't need to convince those who hate that genre. You just have to make a good RPG that appeal to those who already love that genre.

Personally, I don't believe in the "convince others to play the X game type". Those who are willing to love that genre already love it and these who dislike it will dislike it no matter what you do. The only small exception is for making the interface more accessible and things like that.

[Bigdeadbug]

It sounds to me like you just don't like RPGs. So why are you making one? Who says that doing things like "getting armor or buying items" are frustrating? I certainly don't think that, not by any stretch. I also love the thrill of leveling up, of getting new toys to play with, not having toys taken away; we are all just kids inside, and what kid likes to have their toys taken away? Maybe the idea does have merit. Personally, I just don't see it.

I love RPG. My only concern is to convince those who hate rpgs.

This may seem a bit defeatist but it's pointless. If you go out of your way to grab a demographic that doesn't traditionally like the genre you will almost always alienate the demographics that does. This means you (generally) end up in a weird position where no one truly enjoys it and it becomes forgettable.

Just try and make the best game possible (don't worry about "convincing" people) and if it's great chances are anyone will play it. You always have to accept the fact some people just don't like the things you do.




EDIT: And Acharis beat me to it *tips hat*

[Cap'n VG]

Still seeing that it has potential, I'll focus more into it.

Can you guys tell me if the story so far is too cliche?

I'll be making sketches for this game as soon as 29th oct is over!

[Zethariel]

The story so far reeks (for me) of eastern mythology. I mean, 100 children, just to get one woman? That would sound like a great japanese hero story.

It sounds a bit rushed, not thought out -- as a sketch or outline, passes, but barelly.

[Wilhelm van Huyssteen]

This might work nicely if its used on a small part of the game. For example. Some where in the middle of the game the player character gets cursed by a spell that gradualy weakens him. During this time period he still gains experience and levels but he will weaken overall. This will last until he manages to break the curse at wich point hell be as strong as he was + the experience he gained while being cursed. This could even form the basis of a story arc if the game has multiple story arcs. I cant see this working for the entire game though.

[Cap'n VG]

The story so far reeks (for me) of eastern mythology. I mean, 100 children, just to get one woman? That would sound like a great japanese hero story.

It sounds a bit rushed, not thought out -- as a sketch or outline, passes, but barelly.

Just tell me briefly exactly what makes a good story? The main villian hardly has any grunts. So I'm using 94 of the children Harvey lost as his henchmen.

I'm assuming that 101 dalmatians was rushed as well?

Why is it that most of the ones I talk to tell me that the story is rushed?

[Zethariel]

Just tell me briefly exactly what makes a good story? The main villian hardly has any grunts. So I'm using 94 of the children Harvey lost as his henchmen.

I'm assuming that 101 dalmatians was rushed as well?

Why is it that most of the ones I talk to tell me that the story is rushed?

A good story is that of good pacing and a clearly defined audience.

What has 101 dalmatians to do with it? Unless you were referring to 101 dalmatians in your story, I can't see the connection here.

If several people tell you that, then I guess that is the impression your story makes. Suspension of disbelief is shattered here -- unless the hero is handicapped in some way, no sane man would raise an orphanage worth's children by his own just to impress a woman. Read some eastern myths, you will find such ridiculous stories plentifull there.

The reason that this story might seem premature is the way you present it -- a few sentences here, now he is a wizard (out of the blue?) who can teach children and there is a snake involved (say what?) and there is a book that makes him older (don't they have cops or something? Any sort of, idk, Spanish Inquisition?).

You might get better insight about the story in the Writing section though -- although I believe the critique would be more harsh and elaborate.

EDIT: And saying that you introduce 94 children only because the bad guy couldn't afford henchmen doesn't help...

[JTippetts]

This is just my personal opinion here, but if I were you I would work on a basic gameplay prototype before working too much on the story. If the gameplay works, the story can help flesh it out. If the gameplay is broken (ie, not fun), then the story won't really matter. Once you have the details of the gameplay hammered out, then the story will round out the whole experience nicely.

For example, nothing that I have read about your story so far really makes the whole de-leveling thing absolutely necessary. So before fleshing the story out so that de-leveling is necessary, build a prototype of the gameplay with deleveling, and make sure that it doesn't infuriate players. Make sure that it's fun. And if it turns out to never be fun, you can re-write the gameplay and tweak it until it is, without having to worry about re-writing the story so much.

Since gameplay is what will keep players occupied the 90% of the time when they're not reading story, the gameplay should drive the story and inform it. Story should not be used to force a gameplay style that may or may not be any fun.

[Cap'n VG]

This is just my personal opinion here, but if I were you I would work on a basic gameplay prototype before working too much on the story. If the gameplay works, the story can help flesh it out. If the gameplay is broken (ie, not fun), then the story won't really matter. Once you have the details of the gameplay hammered out, then the story will round out the whole experience nicely.

For example, nothing that I have read about your story so far really makes the whole de-leveling thing absolutely necessary. So before fleshing the story out so that de-leveling is necessary, build a prototype of the gameplay with deleveling, and make sure that it doesn't infuriate players. Make sure that it's fun. And if it turns out to never be fun, you can re-write the gameplay and tweak it until it is, without having to worry about re-writing the story so much.

Since gameplay is what will keep players occupied the 90% of the time when they're not reading story, the gameplay should drive the story and inform it. Story should not be used to force a gameplay style that may or may not be any fun.

Oh don't worry about that. It'll be fun indeed. So what did you guys mean that my game has potential?

[Khaiy]

The game has potential because the main mechanic sounds interesting and after further description doesn't sound as arbitrary as it did in the initial presentation. The story sounds like it will be at least servicable in the end. Your game idea doesn't seem unrealistic in scope or like a clone of an existing game that you only think is original.

As you develop it further, your game may realize the hints of quality that your idea offers now.

And here's an idea for the weakening of the main character in the context of the plot: the main character gains specialized abilities to save the children from the serpent's thrall from reading the book. The player can focus on saving more children as a plot objective, but this makes all other challenges more difficult because of the weakening effect needed to do so. That's a tradeoff I would be intrigued by.

[Servet]

One of the joys of RPGs are watching your character develop, both to defeat the game mechanics (stats, attributes, skills etc.) and in narrative (save a loved one, achieve something in the game world etc.).Progress does not need to bring positive results (hero loses a limb, his uncle and aunt gets killed etc.), I do not see the narrative reason behind your aim to weaken a character engaging enough. I think you have something good going on, but you should focus on how to make the balance between forward and backwards progress between narrative and mechanical elements in your game.

I suggest you start reading Joseph Campell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, it will give you an idea of how a character develops through a storyline.

Hope that helps in some way.

[Cap'n VG]

One of the joys of RPGs are watching your character develop, both to defeat the game mechanics (stats, attributes, skills etc.) and in narrative (save a loved one, achieve something in the game world etc.).Progress does not need to bring positive results (hero loses a limb, his uncle and aunt gets killed etc.), I do not see the narrative reason behind your aim to weaken a character engaging enough. I think you have something good going on, but you should focus on how to make the balance between forward and backwards progress between narrative and mechanical elements in your game.

I suggest you start reading Joseph Campell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, it will give you an idea of how a character develops through a storyline.

Hope that helps in some way.

I don't think books will help me but thanks anyway.

See the thing is I already got the story in mind but how to write it and explain it is the difficult part.

[Servet]

One of the joys of RPGs are watching your character develop, both to defeat the game mechanics (stats, attributes, skills etc.) and in narrative (save a loved one, achieve something in the game world etc.).Progress does not need to bring positive results (hero loses a limb, his uncle and aunt gets killed etc.), I do not see the narrative reason behind your aim to weaken a character engaging enough. I think you have something good going on, but you should focus on how to make the balance between forward and backwards progress between narrative and mechanical elements in your game.

I suggest you start reading Joseph Campell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, it will give you an idea of how a character develops through a storyline.

Hope that helps in some way.

I don't think books will help me but thanks anyway.

See the thing is I already got the story in mind but how to write it and explain it is the difficult part.

I think that's where books can help you Stories have been told for thousands of years, there's some great accumulated material on how a story can be delivered to the audience - you should use it.
Also you got some good tips about writing on another thread, looking forward to your full story when you have the time - good luck and keep us posted.

[Bigdeadbug]

A Servet said. Books will help you a lot in every element of game design and writing (it may be a "new" medium but you would be surprised at the amount of literature on it or areas that somehow link to it). One of the issues I have seen in your writing thread and this one is that you have not read around the subject. Now there's nothing wrong with asking questions on a forum etc. but you will mostly get a lot of brief opinion, people pointing you to other areas or general misinformation. Books can provide you with a much more in-depth and factual response to a question you may have (although there is a problem with finding a book that will answer it).

If you ever want to be a good designer you will need to read books. If you don't you will be making the same mistakes and covering the same areas many people have before you (i.e. you will waste your own time and maybe others). If you don't enjoy reading then there may also be an audio version of a book or failing that plenty is plenty of text to speech software that can just let you sit back and listen.

As for the topic; I can't really add to it in any meaningful way. It's an OK game mechanic but only if it has a reason to be there and even then will need other mechanics to make it work.