12 replies to this topic

[VISQI]

I gotta ask this.
Recently i have been reading "Real-Time Rendering" which is a seriously great book in my opinion, but i just wanna ask, in a real game project, will we use complicated Anisotropic BRDFs that use the microfacet theory and complicated algorithms to approximate stuff such as height fields and etc, or are we going to stick to the good ol' Blinn-Phong BRDF and diffuse/specular/normal/shadow/cube mapping and depend on the ready-made effects of FX Composer and RenderMonkey to render a real game, and focus the extra time to the story/character development in the game??

I am just asking because i don't think that a fresh college graduate will know the above stuff without having studied it on the side before AND worked on it.

If that is true then how the heck does game companies get hundreds of job applications for game programming jobs if it is stuff that you don't even learn in a regular college curriculum.

For me, i am freshman Computer Science student, and i really don't think that i will be learning about Shadow Mapping any time in the next three years without having studied it on the side??

Too long???

[Tiblanc]

I have no idea for your first question. For your second, colleges will teach you basic stuff to get you going like common algorithms, data structures and programming paradigms. The rest you learn on your own. There's way too much stuff for them to cover it all in a few years. Also, it evolves too rapidly for them to keep up to date. However, the basic building blocks remain useful no matter what you do and this is what they teach.

[VISQI]

I have no idea for your first question. For your second, colleges will teach you basic stuff to get you going like common algorithms, data structures and programming paradigms. The rest you learn on your own. There's way too much stuff for them to cover it all in a few years. Also, it evolves too rapidly for them to keep up to date. However, the basic building blocks remain useful no matter what you do and this is what they teach.

But the game companies won't hire someone who just knows common algorithms even if he spent years learning it. They will always hire the person who knows more about game programming even if he doesn't have a degree.

You can't tell me that a college graduate with little to no knowledge in game programming will be favored in a game company interview over a person who read books about that specific topic but only holds a high school degree, right??

[BeerNutts]

I have no idea for your first question. For your second, colleges will teach you basic stuff to get you going like common algorithms, data structures and programming paradigms. The rest you learn on your own. There's way too much stuff for them to cover it all in a few years. Also, it evolves too rapidly for them to keep up to date. However, the basic building blocks remain useful no matter what you do and this is what they teach.

But the game companies won't hire someone who just knows common algorithms even if he spent years learning it. They will always hire the person who knows more about game programming even if he doesn't have a degree.

You can't tell me that a college graduate with little to no knowledge in game programming will be favored in a game company interview over a person who read books about that specific topic but only holds a high school degree, right??

Going to college (good colleges at least) teach you how to think and how to solve problems. It also shows you can work under pressure and can complete assignments. When Companies look at someone to hire, the person with the degree will have a MUCH higher chance of getting hired than someone with just a high school diploma. Regardless, I would think Game Companies will require some gaming specific technical understanding for anyone they hire, college grad or not.

[DarklyDreaming]

I have no idea for your first question. For your second, colleges will teach you basic stuff to get you going like common algorithms, data structures and programming paradigms. The rest you learn on your own. There's way too much stuff for them to cover it all in a few years. Also, it evolves too rapidly for them to keep up to date. However, the basic building blocks remain useful no matter what you do and this is what they teach.

But the game companies won't hire someone who just knows common algorithms even if he spent years learning it. They will always hire the person who knows more about game programming even if he doesn't have a degree.

You can't tell me that a college graduate with little to no knowledge in game programming will be favored in a game company interview over a person who read books about that specific topic but only holds a high school degree, right??

No, but the guy with the college degree is much more likely to pass HR scanning -- the guy with a high school degree is very likely to end up in the dumpster bin lest he has other credentials; e.g. a high-profile game attached to his resumé.

[Tiblanc]

I have no idea for your first question. For your second, colleges will teach you basic stuff to get you going like common algorithms, data structures and programming paradigms. The rest you learn on your own. There's way too much stuff for them to cover it all in a few years. Also, it evolves too rapidly for them to keep up to date. However, the basic building blocks remain useful no matter what you do and this is what they teach.

But the game companies won't hire someone who just knows common algorithms even if he spent years learning it. They will always hire the person who knows more about game programming even if he doesn't have a degree.

You can't tell me that a college graduate with little to no knowledge in game programming will be favored in a game company interview over a person who read books about that specific topic but only holds a high school degree, right??

Don't underestimate the basics. Game programming doesn't require anything different than business programming. It's the same basic building blocks arranged differently. Programming isn't like grabbing garbage where you can teach someone how to operate the garbage truck and let him replicate it hundreds of time per day. It's about taking input data from various sources and producing a desired output. The middle step is often unique and the more building blocks you know, the better solutions you can come up with. Knowing how to use some technology with an acronym from hell is like the garbage man. Yes you can do it, but once it's done and you need to tackle another problem the next day, you're stuck.

[XXChester]

I am shocked no one has said this yet. Yes game companies get hundreds of applications every day, that doesn't mean they hire hundreds. Only a select few from that pile are probably even considered for an interview. Companies don't necessarily want a degree because it relates to your line of work. They more so want to know that you have the ability to stick with something for years and are determined and hard working. These skills are interchangable. For example, another developer I work with has a PHD in molecular biology. In the end, a company will always favour a degree over not having one unless they have proven experience. The trick is getting said proven experience. It is not impossible to get into the game's industry without a degree but it is certainly harder.

[VISQI]

so basically for a person to get a GOOD job as a game programmer, he needs to get a summa cum laude GPA, while studying different 3D APIs AND getting involved in multiple projects so he can have a superb demo disc to send with the resume, and after all of that, he MIGHT or MIGHT NOT get a job. Did i miss something??

Well good thing i started at this early. Seriously, did i miss something?? Would an internship at a game company be helpful too??

[DarklyDreaming]

so basically for a person to get a GOOD job as a game programmer, he needs to get a summa cum laude GPA, while studying different 3D APIs AND getting involved in multiple projects so he can have a superb demo disc to send with the resume, and after all of that, he MIGHT or MIGHT NOT get a job. Did i miss something??

Well good thing i started at this early. Seriously, did i miss something?? Would an internship at a game company be helpful too??

Of course. It goes something like this,
1) Experience -- always #1 when recruiters are looking at your resumé.
2) Degree -- important, since it shuffles out the crappy ones to the bottom of the pile.
3) Projects -- if you have personal projects or similar, this goes here.
4) Knowledge -- obvious rationalism dictates this goes as #1, but 'fraid it does not. Knowledge can only be proven true/false after an interview and tests; quite extensive for someone who might be a dud.

Others fall all over the place, depending on the HR rep doing the scanning. So, as most feel #1 is the unobtainable catch 22, they go for number 2 and try to get some points with personal projects - knowledge is just assumed. It's a final elimination round along with other traits (likability anyone?), but yeah - having only a high school degree dumps you right out of the game from the get go unless there is a hell of a lot more to your story.

Hope that clears some things up!

[L. Spiro]

My first boss said he was tired of kids with diplomas coming from high-end universities. They tend to think they are special and ask for too much money. Plus it had no meaning as to their skill levels.
You can study hard and still never learn.

On the other hand, you could come from a low-end school but be full of experience due to your own passion driving you to make your own projects etc.


In my case–and I may just have been lucky–personal projects were the main consideration.
The fact is, I dropped out of high school. I didn't even have a high-school diploma let alone a degree.
I wouldn't suggest that you drop out and go this route, but at the same time you seem too worried about this subject.


There are so many companies out there, and my first game job was overseas, so you also need to remember that you have the entire world at your disposal. Not just your country.

If you get your degree and you have a good amount of personal projects to showcase yourself, you will get a job. It is only a matter of time.
Stop worrying about it and start a project.


Why are you still reading this? Go already!!


L. Spiro

[Bregma]

Listen guys.

Life's a bitch, and then you die. That's the only sure thing.

There's successful people out there in all trades who do not have the formalized education regularly considered necessary for their line of work. There are folk who study hard for years and never find anything in their field. The universe is rarely fair or just and is usually quite harsh. You are not entitled.

But consider this: serendipity favours the prepared mind. Prepare your mind. Every way you can. Rinse and repeat.

[Hodgman]

in a real game project, will we use complicated Anisotropic BRDFs that use the microfacet theory and complicated algorithms to approximate stuff such as height fields and etc, or are we going to stick to the good ol' Blinn-Phong BRDF and diffuse/specular

If the game's art-style is "next-gen photorealistic", then yes, they're probably going to be using a better BRDF than plain old phong.
N.B. that Blinn-Phong is a microfacet theory based BRDF (whereas phong is not).
Blinn-Phong can also be easily modified to be normalized and energy conserving, which is a good place to start for photo-realistic HDR rendering, but other BRDF's like cook–torrance give better results (and are used in modern games).
Anisotropic BRDFs are only used sparingly, for materials like metal or hair.

I am just asking because i don't think that a fresh college graduate will know the above stuff without having studied it on the side before AND worked on it.
For me, i am freshman Computer Science student, and i really don't think that i will be learning about Shadow Mapping any time in the next three years without having studied it on the side??

College/University does not teach you all the skills you need in the workplace. If you graduate from college and only have the knowledge that they've taught you directly, then you will not be an attractive hire.
What college does teach you, is how to learn by yourself. If you want to be a great programmer, you're going to have to do a lot of learning aside from your college classes. Read blogs and research papers and books out of interest, not because your courses require you to!

to get a GOOD job as a game programmer, he needs to get a summa cum laude GPA

I have no idea what the latin is, but I'll assume it means "great". No, your GPA is meaningless. All that matters is your abilities, and how well you can demonstrate them.

[VISQI]

Great. I guess you guys all share the same great views about this topic.
Thanks for sharing everyone