Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

I'm new subforum in the For Beginners forum


Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.

  • You cannot reply to this topic
25 replies to this topic

#1 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4692

Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:08 PM

There's seems to be SO many of these through the years. It's seems rational to make an "I'm new" subforum where brand new people can introduce themselves, lay out some whatever their thoughts are and have right there an "I'm New" FAQ. It could be like the "Welcome" door to GD.Net for fresh from the womb beginners.
Beginner in Game Development? Read here.
 
Super Mario Bros clone tutorial written in XNA 4.0 [MonoGame, ANX, and MonoXNA] by Scott Haley
 
If you have found any of the posts helpful, please show your appreciation by clicking the up arrow on those posts Posted Image
 
Spoiler

Sponsor:

#2 Telastyn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3730

Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:30 PM

We already have the For Beginners FAQ that they don't read. Hiding it in a subforum seems like it'd just make things worse. I'd rather see these stupid daily newb posts closed with a FAQ link (though understand that might not be the nice friendly welcome newbies should get).

Or perhaps a sticky to make the 'stop asking what language to start with' hint more prominent.

#3 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4692

Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:24 PM

Well I'm suggesting that there the For Beginner's Main Forum and FAQ. Then a I'm New subforum and FAQ. Two separate things.
Beginner in Game Development? Read here.
 
Super Mario Bros clone tutorial written in XNA 4.0 [MonoGame, ANX, and MonoXNA] by Scott Haley
 
If you have found any of the posts helpful, please show your appreciation by clicking the up arrow on those posts Posted Image
 
Spoiler

#4 ApochPiQ   Moderators   -  Reputation: 16396

Posted 02 December 2011 - 07:47 PM

So, basically, people will be twice as likely not to read the FAQ ;-)

#5 Michael Tanczos   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 5451

Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:38 PM

Perhaps all the "I'm new" posts is more indicative of what beginners want to get out of the site - It seems as though they are looking for more than just answers, but some type of social interaction with fellow newbies as well. I think the more advanced you get, the more you just participate in answering questions or asking them.. and on the highest levels you typically ask hard questions that you already have done some research on. These guys aren't there yet.. they want to find common ground with each other. The tough part is dealing with the arrogant know-it-all types though who ask for help and give advice to more experienced folks in the same breath.

I don't know offhand what a good answer to this is.. but perhaps we need to do something to help the beginners share stuff with each other easier. Hell, maybe we need that everywhere really..

I think what bothers me the most though is the beginner that comes here and gets quickly discouraged because they feel mistreated - even if their behavior is a violation of our faq. It seems as though these guys need more kid gloves in terms of how we welcome them into our community. These are the same folks that grow up and if they remain active go on to help other beginners like they once were. I know as a high school teacher that it isn't necessarily that these are dumb kids - but that they just don't know how to conduct themselves yet or even necessarily have the skills they need to do proper research. Part of teaching beginners involves making them aware of how to solve their own problems in a thoughtful and constructive way.

#6 Telastyn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3730

Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:57 PM

Frankly, the majority of people who come in with the 'I don't know anything, but I want to make games' post won't ever amount to anything because it's their flight of fancy this week/month. They don't really want to program, and they don't really want to make the art. They want to mash features together since that will be awesome. I suspect that the majority will fail regardless of what we do.

Certainly some are beginners that need a push in the right direction, but I question the benefit of welcoming a handful more beginners at the expense of losing a handful more veterans who tire of trying to help people who will never benefit from the help; all the while not getting discussion on their advanced questions because the community is so weakened.


Sorry that this isn't so constructive. I think that a sticky in the forum would be good to make the good content that exists easier to find.

#7 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 10364

Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:35 PM

Part of teaching beginners involves making them aware of how to solve their own problems in a thoughtful and constructive way.

Since when were we (in an individual sense) in the business of teaching? I appreciate that GameDev (as an entity) may regard teaching as a prime directive, but individual users probably don't regard that as their function.

Some of us have background in teaching, and plenty have a technical background, but my impression is that most of us come to GameDev for discussion (and occasionally, help), but not to teach. And one of the largest barriers to interesting discussion is the number of cruft threads around. Look through the last few week's posts, and see how many familiar debates you spot - just browsing I have seen the Singleton debate, the C++ vs C# debate, the vsync debate, the resolution change debate, the parody vs copyright debate, oh, and the infamous 'what C++ book' debate.

I have contributed to answering all of those debates, over and over and over, in the 8 years I've been here. And yet they are still being asked. Either because no one is motivated to google for the old answers, or because the old answers are too hard to find - both of which are issues we could attempt to remedy.

***

In my first 5,000 posts on GameDev, I posted less than 10 of those in the lounge, because the lounge back then was a no man's land. Now I spend about half my time in the lounge, because the discussions there are more interesting...

Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#8 Michael Tanczos   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 5451

Posted 03 December 2011 - 07:23 AM


Part of teaching beginners involves making them aware of how to solve their own problems in a thoughtful and constructive way.

Since when were we (in an individual sense) in the business of teaching? I appreciate that GameDev (as an entity) may regard teaching as a prime directive, but individual users probably don't regard that as their function.

Some of us have background in teaching, and plenty have a technical background, but my impression is that most of us come to GameDev for discussion (and occasionally, help), but not to teach. And one of the largest barriers to interesting discussion is the number of cruft threads around. Look through the last few week's posts, and see how many familiar debates you spot - just browsing I have seen the Singleton debate, the C++ vs C# debate, the vsync debate, the resolution change debate, the parody vs copyright debate, oh, and the infamous 'what C++ book' debate.

I have contributed to answering all of those debates, over and over and over, in the 8 years I've been here. And yet they are still being asked. Either because no one is motivated to google for the old answers, or because the old answers are too hard to find - both of which are issues we could attempt to remedy.

***

In my first 5,000 posts on GameDev, I posted less than 10 of those in the lounge, because the lounge back then was a no man's land. Now I spend about half my time in the lounge, because the discussions there are more interesting...


What if instead of the word "teaching" I use the word "helping"? We may be splitting hairs here. I think whenever another user steps up to write a tutorial, link to a blog or other resource, or help answer someone else's questions they are engaging in a process of helping other users learn. I think there are different segments of users who want different things out of the site - but for the beginners they need to have a sense of self responsibility when it comes to their own learning. For these guys they are sometimes so far in the unknowing camp that they don't even remotely know where to begin..

For the beginners though I'd almost want to say to them before they post:
Be humble, you don't know everything and that's why your here. Be thankful, others will spend their time trying to help you out.. make sure you recognize that. Work as hard as you can to be successful and don't give up.

Your post brings up two additional problems - that we should probably still retain a google search on the site somewhere, since google does index far older posts than our own indexer does (which only does the last year's worth). Two, perhaps we're not seeing enough interesting new stuff to talk about in the existing forums.. hopefully putting more resources and making tutorial sharing easier is going to help alleviate that problem at least.

#9 DarklyDreaming   Members   -  Reputation: 366

Posted 03 December 2011 - 07:42 AM

What we really need is to point beginners to the FAQ right away after they register. Something like "Beginner? Start here!" button. Point is, most won't go looking for the FAQ -- shoving it in their face is just about the only thing that can be done to make sure that they absolutely have seen it. Some will of course start these pointless threads again anyways, but at least we'll have done everything that can be done first!
"I will personally burn everything I've made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."
~ Gabe

"I don't mean to rush you but you are keeping two civilizations waiting!"
~ Cavil, BSG.
"If it's really important to you that other people follow your True Brace Style, it just indicates you're inexperienced. Go find something productive to do."
~ Bregma

"Well, you're not alone.

There's a club for people like that. It's called Everybody and we meet at the bar."

~ Antheus


#10 Gaiiden   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 5274

Posted 03 December 2011 - 05:05 PM

I have contributed to answering all of those debates, over and over and over, in the 8 years I've been here. And yet they are still being asked. Either because no one is motivated to google for the old answers, or because the old answers are too hard to find - both of which are issues we could attempt to remedy.

Yup. This is something I've been talking about more and more myself lately. I think it's more the former than the latter, but these are both issues we're looking into on an ongoing basis

Drew Sikora
Executive Producer
GameDev.net


#11 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 21000

Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:05 PM

Frankly, the majority of people who come in with the 'I don't know anything, but I want to make games' post won't ever amount to anything because it's their flight of fancy this week/month. They don't really want to program, and they don't really want to make the art. They want to mash features together since that will be awesome. I suspect that the majority will fail regardless of what we do.

I agree that many will just move on, but others wont. Others really will put in the effort, and it's very hard to tell which is which from a single post. Some come in with crappy spelling, horrible grammar, and not a clue where to start... but are willing to learn. Others come with with properly-punctuated posts, but want an easier 'Make a Halo MMOFPSRPG in 5 Easy Steps' shortcut.

I think a better solution then a "READ THIS FIRST! REALLY! PLEASE! I BEGGETH THEE!" sticky, would be a "How to make games" sticky, that goes through the difficulties of game programmer, offers helpful starting points (Python, for example), suggests small projects (Pong, etc...), and openly explains that it's difficult and it'll take you 5-10 years to get to make the game you want, but that if you stick with you, you wont regret it in the long haul.
Something like For Beginners FAQ but touched up some more (for example, making the C# and Python language suggestions be actual hyperlinks, perhaps adding a picture or two to minimize the "Wall of text? Forget that, I'll just spam the forums for help instead" idea.

Then, when any newbie posts an illogical post without reading the sticky, forum members can just use a [starthere] tag, that the forum software will automatically covert to the proper hyperlink, thus not "wearing out" the veterans like you mentioned.

I forget... does the forums manually force you to the For Beginners FAQ when you sign up for the site? I know that's been suggested a few times, but I don't remember if it was ever implemented.

It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God.
Of Stranger Flames - [indie turn-based rpg set in a para-historical French colony] | Indie RPG development journal

[Fly with me on Twitter] [Google+] [My broken website]

[Need web hosting? I personally like A Small Orange]


#12 Michael Tanczos   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 5451

Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:25 PM


Frankly, the majority of people who come in with the 'I don't know anything, but I want to make games' post won't ever amount to anything because it's their flight of fancy this week/month. They don't really want to program, and they don't really want to make the art. They want to mash features together since that will be awesome. I suspect that the majority will fail regardless of what we do.

I agree that many will just move on, but others wont. Others really will put in the effort, and it's very hard to tell which is which from a single post. Some come in with crappy spelling, horrible grammar, and not a clue where to start... but are willing to learn. Others come with with properly-punctuated posts, but want an easier 'Make a Halo MMOFPSRPG in 5 Easy Steps' shortcut.

I think a better solution then a "READ THIS FIRST! REALLY! PLEASE! I BEGGETH THEE!" sticky, would be a "How to make games" sticky, that goes through the difficulties of game programmer, offers helpful starting points (Python, for example), suggests small projects (Pong, etc...), and openly explains that it's difficult and it'll take you 5-10 years to get to make the game you want, but that if you stick with you, you wont regret it in the long haul.
Something like For Beginners FAQ but touched up some more (for example, making the C# and Python language suggestions be actual hyperlinks, perhaps adding a picture or two to minimize the "Wall of text? Forget that, I'll just spam the forums for help instead" idea.

Then, when any newbie posts an illogical post without reading the sticky, forum members can just use a [starthere] tag, that the forum software will automatically covert to the proper hyperlink, thus not "wearing out" the veterans like you mentioned.

I forget... does the forums manually force you to the For Beginners FAQ when you sign up for the site? I know that's been suggested a few times, but I don't remember if it was ever implemented.


One of the things we'll be doing with the next update is putting a series of blocks next to the individual forum topic listing itself. One of the most important new additions is a customized block controllable by the moderators of each forum that contain "Getting Started" material. This will include some of the top must-have goto resources for the forum. Another block that you will most likely see is one listing developer journals of only the members who have "joined" that particular forum, allowing you to get to know one another a little easier.

We're still nailing down the final details of what blocks we want there but here is what it will look like:

ForBeginners.png

We're also working on the design of the resources tab, but what we did over the past few months (in addition to reorganizing our forums) on our existing site was to collapse all the article categories down to match up exactly with the forums. Likewise, we did the same for books along with a number of other resource areas.

What you will see in that tab directly are the newest articles, books, job offers, marketplace items, etc. that match up with that forum. Articles posted will be moderated AFTER they are posted just like forum posts - so we'll be largely looking to make posting tutorials for your fellow member very easy. We also are experimenting with a possible "Promote to Article" link on every forum post that will allow members to quickly create an article from an existing post.

The other thing that will be cool is this. Let's say you find a link to a cool resource you think fellow gamedev members should know about.. We created a simple bookmarklet you can put on your toolbar that will allow you to quickly share that resource directly into the resource tab of a forum you like. We'll deal with abuse just like we deal with it in the forums since topic posting is open to members as well. Sharing solid, useful information is going to be absolutely simple.. and that's the core idea behind Gamedev.net for the start of 2012 onwards.

LinkSharing.PNG

#13 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 21000

Posted 06 December 2011 - 11:44 AM

Those sounds like several really good solutions. I suggest allowing the moderators to also customize the coloring of the "Getting Started" block separately from the other blocks, to draw attention to it on the forums that need it ('Help Wanted' (because of the mandatory template) and 'For Beginners' (the Start Here FAQ) specifically). Coloring it differently from the other blocks will draw eyes to it that haven't seen it before.
It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God.
Of Stranger Flames - [indie turn-based rpg set in a para-historical French colony] | Indie RPG development journal

[Fly with me on Twitter] [Google+] [My broken website]

[Need web hosting? I personally like A Small Orange]


#14 Michael Tanczos   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 5451

Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:14 PM

Those sounds like several really good solutions. I suggest allowing the moderators to also customize the coloring of the "Getting Started" block separately from the other blocks, to draw attention to it on the forums that need it ('Help Wanted' (because of the mandatory template) and 'For Beginners' (the Start Here FAQ) specifically). Coloring it differently from the other blocks will draw eyes to it that haven't seen it before.



That's a great idea actually. Since every forum will have the Getting Started block it should stand out a little. Special coloring could be just enough to pull that off.

#15 Juliano Schroeder   Members   -  Reputation: 121

Posted 08 December 2011 - 02:26 PM

Hello,

I'm a newbie myself regarding game programming, but I too get annoyed with the storm of repetitive posts about "Which language should I choose" "I'm new How do I start" type of posts. Some years ago when I've first got interested in game programming I found this article here on GameDev:

http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/game-programming/how-do-i-make-games-a-path-to-game-development-r892

I think it summarizes almost everything that a beginner needs to know to start learning game programming. This year, when I came again to GameDev, I was looking for this article and didn't find it so easily.

I think something like this is missing on the site, some direction, even before the user registers himself on the forum. They probably have a mindset like I had "These guys are pros, they make games, what are their advices?" Well, you just need to put your general advices somewhere for all the beginners to see.

Maybe it's not that simple, only my 2 cents.
http://www.creationguts.com - The Guts of Creation
drawing, programming and game design.

#16 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 10364

Posted 08 December 2011 - 03:18 PM

http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/game-programming/how-do-i-make-games-a-path-to-game-development-r892

I think it summarizes almost everything that a beginner needs to know to start learning game programming. This year, when I came again to GameDev, I was looking for this article and didn't find it so easily.

I think something like this is missing on the site, some direction, even before the user registers himself on the forum. They probably have a mindset like I had "These guys are pros, they make games, what are their advices?" Well, you just need to put your general advices somewhere for all the beginners to see.

Maybe it's not that simple, only my 2 cents.

I think it is pretty much that simple (at the very least, that approach couldn't make things any *worse*). The article you pointed to is obviously pretty dated, and doesn't tackle some of our perennial problems (i.e. starting language), but a new article along the same lines, prominently placed... It could have a lot of impact.

Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#17 Cornstalks   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6991

Posted 08 December 2011 - 03:24 PM

I think it is pretty much that simple (at the very least, that approach couldn't make things any *worse*). The article you pointed to is obviously pretty dated, and doesn't tackle some of our perennial problems (i.e. starting language), but a new article along the same lines, prominently placed... It could have a lot of impact.


So... who's gonna write the updated article? I'm willing to contribute, given the fact that I too think one resource that tries to tackle many of the repeatedly repeated questions would help a lot.
[ I was ninja'd 71 times before I stopped counting a long time ago ] [ f.k.a. MikeTacular ] [ My Blog ] [ SWFer: Gaplessly looped MP3s in your Flash games ]

#18 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 10364

Posted 08 December 2011 - 03:50 PM

So... who's gonna write the updated article? I'm willing to contribute, given the fact that I too think one resource that tries to tackle many of the repeatedly repeated questions would help a lot.

Preferably, someone with solid enough credentials that their article isn't ignored, or overwhelmed by a flame-war. An industry veteran, ideally, or at least one of the senior moderators.

Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#19 Cornstalks   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6991

Posted 08 December 2011 - 03:53 PM


So... who's gonna write the updated article? I'm willing to contribute, given the fact that I too think one resource that tries to tackle many of the repeatedly repeated questions would help a lot.

Preferably, someone with solid enough credentials that their article isn't ignored, or overwhelmed by a flame-war. An industry veteran, ideally, or at least one of the senior moderators.

I agree. Is this where we start nominating people and bugging them until we get someone to give in?

(let me clarify my willingness to contribute: give feedback, find grammar/spelling mistakes, etc.)
[ I was ninja'd 71 times before I stopped counting a long time ago ] [ f.k.a. MikeTacular ] [ My Blog ] [ SWFer: Gaplessly looped MP3s in your Flash games ]

#20 Juliano Schroeder   Members   -  Reputation: 121

Posted 08 December 2011 - 04:54 PM

Well, I offer myself to give a newbie view for these future-canonical-beginner-prowritten article. =D

Something with a big title, pretty pictures, with lots of acronyms.. specially with symbols like ++ and #.
http://www.creationguts.com - The Guts of Creation
drawing, programming and game design.




Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.



PARTNERS