I think one of the real issues is that many young(er) game developers have no idea what pro-level (or even decent level) audio really costs and then experience sticker shock when they come across someone who does charge close to or at industry standard rates.

You're going to buy a new TV. Which one are you going to pick:

A) The $6,000 Sony model
B) The $50 "Wonder TV!!!" model
C) The $800 LG model

Most would pick C because the price is high but not super expensive. It's affordable with some budgeting. A few might shoot for the $6,000 model if they're well off or just super fanatical about TVs. Very few would pick the $50 bargin brand model because you pay for what you get.

[color="#1C2837"]

But until you know for sure someone is better than average, don't pay them more than average!

[/quote]

This is an interesting comment. How are you supposed to know if someone is better than average or not when first starting out? I set up the terms and rates before beginning any work with a new client. Sure, I can throw out a small sample if requested but even then I may charge a small fee to cover my time on the sample. And of course I always provide plenty of references, demo pieces and quotes from other clients/peers to show the type of work I do.[/quote]
Demo-reels exactly can show the quality. Quotes from satisfied customers can help, but I wouldn't count on them unless I recognized the name or studio of the person being quoted.

When writing the previous post, I had exactly you in mind as a 'professional quality composer', because I've listened numerous times to your demo reel, and infact sometimes spontaneously check your site to see what new music you created or to re-listen to some of your songs. As a non-musician who has difficulty determining what is good music and what is bad, that right there is a good sign to me. That, and the fact that your studio is the only music studio name I have unintentionally memorized.

I most certainly would pay you a higher price for your tracks and you most certainly should charge higher prices... but I wont hire you at the present time, because my games at this point are lower budget. When my own skill level has increased the quality of my games, then I'll also seek higher quality artists and higher quality composers, and am willing to pay higher prices for that. I'm not going to invest higher budgets for my games until the quality of my games themselves are worth the higher budgets. Not that my games are crap, mind you, or that I'm doing a sloppy or makeshift job on them - I'm doing my best on them - but they are certainly rough around the edges as I'm learning better programming and better game design skills.

When my games are of a more professional quality, and not just a beginner starting out, I'll pay professional prices for professional music. While I'm investing my time and skills and passion in a good game, I'll pay good prices for good music from a composer that invests his time and passion and skills in good music. I have to make profit off of my game after all, and it wouldn't be smart to invest heavily in music to a greater degree then the expected sales of the game.

[color="#1C2837"]

It's kinda hard to work out in my own mind what is 'fair' when my budget is small. I implicitly want to be as cheap as possible without cheating anyone; but I also want support and cultivate good relationships with those I work with. Finding a good balance there is hard for me, personally. Better err on the side of good relationships, and be a few dollars shorter, I suppose.[color="#000000"][/quote]

It is an interesting problem. Perhaps offer what you can as a flat rate for X work done then offer Y % of any sales profits for the game. This way if the game is a huge smash, the composer can make more just like the rest of the team can. And if the game doesn't make any money, the composer can still know X amount of cash will have been paid.[/quote]
That's a good idea, and one I've considered, but it's not my preferred choice. It complicates things. In 10 years from now, if a single copy of one of my old games is sold, I still have to remember to give 10% to the composer, 5% to the writer, 15% to the two artists.

I could offer the first Y% of sales only for a specific time-frame (The first two launch weeks of sales, the first year of sales, etc...), that way it's not an indefinite budget complication but a short-term one.
Alternatively, I could offer the first X amount of profit earned goes to the composer, before I see any profit myself - and that seems reasonable to me, and appeals alot more.

But as the game developer, ideally it should be me taking the risk of the game, not the contractors. I shouldn't pay people with promises, but pay them out of pocket or not hire them at all - especially in an unpredictable market (indie game sales). If I don't have the money, I shouldn't buy the goods; if I need the goods and don't have the money, then I have to make due with the budget goods I can afford.

If you plan on being a long term developer (either indie or triple A or somewhere in between) then do some research on the market. Find out from other developers that you trust and know what they've paid for audio work. Heck, this works for ALL disciplines.[/quote]
That's a very good idea - I'll make a note to do that, thanks!

And if you find someone great that does wonderful work, meets deadlines and is easy to work with - do whatever is needed to keep working with that person. At the end of the day not having to worry about missed deadlines or crap music or missing the vision of the game is WELL worth the extra dough.[/quote]
Fully agree with that.