Hi
In terms of copyright law and well law in general, is it illegal if I put an edited version of a classical theme from the 20th century (or before) in my game and by edited I mean remixed. Theres a cut scene that would go brilliant with "Dance of the Knights" playing but I dont really want to get sued for using it.
What exactly is the process of using a dead persons work (obviously I am not going to pass it as my own)?
Regards
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Music laws
Started by Dynamo_Maestro, Feb 03 2012 12:10 PM
24 replies to this topic
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#2 Members - Reputation: 116
Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:21 PM
This should clear everything up. http://copyright.cor...ublicdomain.cfm
Remixing a song would be considered similar to reusing a song, rearranging it, reorchestrating it etc.
Cheers,
Chris
Remixing a song would be considered similar to reusing a song, rearranging it, reorchestrating it etc.
Cheers,
Chris
Christian Hellerberg
Freelance Composer
http://soundcloud.com/nyaanyaa
Freelance Composer
http://soundcloud.com/nyaanyaa
#3 Members - Reputation: 162
Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:13 AM
There are 2 different copyrights at work here. One is for the composition itself. The other is for the recording. They're separate things.
So if I want to use Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D-Minor in my game, I'm free to do so provided make a brand new recording of it from scratch. If instead, I take a recording of someone else's recording and use it in my game, then I'm in violation of their copyright, even though I'm not violating Bach's.
Also be very careful to make sure that the music itself (especially from a 20th century composer) is actually in the public domain before you decide to use it as videogame music. Generally the rule is that copyright of a song is good for 70 years after the death of the composer. (Hans zimmer got into trouble for the Gladiator soundtrack (2000), which had music that sounded remarkably like Holts' "the planets"--Holst died in 1934, so "The Planets" was still undercopyright in 2000).
Brian Schmidt
www.GameSoundCon.com
So if I want to use Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D-Minor in my game, I'm free to do so provided make a brand new recording of it from scratch. If instead, I take a recording of someone else's recording and use it in my game, then I'm in violation of their copyright, even though I'm not violating Bach's.
Also be very careful to make sure that the music itself (especially from a 20th century composer) is actually in the public domain before you decide to use it as videogame music. Generally the rule is that copyright of a song is good for 70 years after the death of the composer. (Hans zimmer got into trouble for the Gladiator soundtrack (2000), which had music that sounded remarkably like Holts' "the planets"--Holst died in 1934, so "The Planets" was still undercopyright in 2000).
Brian Schmidt
www.GameSoundCon.com
#4 Moderators - Reputation: 1710
Posted 06 February 2012 - 02:00 PM
The FAQs in the Business/Law forum also contain more pertinent information as to this question.
-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find.
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find.
#5 Members - Reputation: 148
Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:19 AM
Interesting - this track from Bastion references a classical piece who's name escapes me (although the composer has denied being influenced by anything, and says it may have been from a sample library he used). I was wondering how they got away with that - I guess because its entirely new instrumentation.
#6 Members - Reputation: 196
Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:47 AM
StauntonLick, on 07 February 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:
Interesting - this track from Bastion references a classical piece who's name escapes me (although the composer has denied being influenced by anything, and says it may have been from a sample library he used). I was wondering how they got away with that - I guess because its entirely new instrumentation.
Check out my Music/Sound Design Reel on moritzpgkatz.de
#8 Members - Reputation: 196
Posted 07 February 2012 - 05:22 PM
Ahh... it's because Grooveshark isn't available from Germany anymore since January - they said it's because of "disproportionally high running costs".
Forgot about that. (and how much it sucks)
Could you just tell me the name of the track then so I can have at listen somewhere else?
Forgot about that. (and how much it sucks)
Could you just tell me the name of the track then so I can have at listen somewhere else?
Check out my Music/Sound Design Reel on moritzpgkatz.de
#10 Members - Reputation: 196
Posted 08 February 2012 - 07:03 AM
Thanks!
Great tune, but I can't say I've heard that particular motive before - you're talking about the harp, right?
It's not the most innovative melody, it's quite probable that someone has wrote something similar before...
Great tune, but I can't say I've heard that particular motive before - you're talking about the harp, right?
It's not the most innovative melody, it's quite probable that someone has wrote something similar before...
Check out my Music/Sound Design Reel on moritzpgkatz.de
#12 Members - Reputation: 196
Posted 08 February 2012 - 02:13 PM
Hmmm, I don't think they sound alike... sure, they're in the same key and use arpeggio motives on eighths, but I don't have to tell you that's nothing uncommon. ;)
But just to be clear, are we talking about the motives I scribbled down in the attachment?
Edit: Now that I look at it, they both begin with a similar rising arpeggio landing on the 5th of A minor, I can see where one could see that as a similarity. But it's quite possible I could find a track using that cliché even in my own small library.
But just to be clear, are we talking about the motives I scribbled down in the attachment?
Edit: Now that I look at it, they both begin with a similar rising arpeggio landing on the 5th of A minor, I can see where one could see that as a similarity. But it's quite possible I could find a track using that cliché even in my own small library.
Attached Thumbnails
Check out my Music/Sound Design Reel on moritzpgkatz.de
#13 Members - Reputation: 148
Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:35 PM
Ah that's the harp bit in the intro (which I agree is different) - The bit I'm talking about is most audible at 01:29 in the Bastion tune. I don't have a notation tool on this machine, but it sounds like a string/flute combo (possibly synth) with a lower cello and bass drum part.
I'm coming to thinking it's probably some generic piece of music composed for a sample library which has been appropriated by Darren Korb for the Bastion soundtrack. Makes the job easier I suppose!
I realise this has gone very off topic though and into one man's obsession!
I'm coming to thinking it's probably some generic piece of music composed for a sample library which has been appropriated by Darren Korb for the Bastion soundtrack. Makes the job easier I suppose!
I realise this has gone very off topic though and into one man's obsession!
#14 Moderators - Reputation: 1710
Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:39 PM
StauntonLick, on 08 February 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:
I realise this has gone very off topic though and into one man's obsession!
And fed mine. I played a bit of Bastion but didn't get to hear all the music, and am delighted to have found the soundtrack on YouTube.
-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find.
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find.
#15 Moderators - Reputation: 1434
Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:51 PM
StauntonLick, on 08 February 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:
I'm coming to thinking it's probably some generic piece of music composed for a sample library which has been appropriated by Darren Korb for the Bastion soundtrack. Makes the job easier I suppose!
That would be my guess. It's faster in the podcast version than it is in the Bastion OST. Also the looping point (or the splicing) in the podcast is a bit sloppier or perhaps it was intentional to create a syncopated rhythm? In the Bastion OST the looping is much more straight forward, less syncopated. Either way - they are very similar and most likely loops from a library which both the podcast and the video game licensed out. Given how cheap and plentiful canned musical loops are these days... it's very likely.
#16 Moderators - Reputation: 1434
Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:55 PM
I also think it's important to note that the US Federal Supreme court recently ruled on public domain:
Supreme Court Says Congress May Re-Copyright Public Domain Works
http://www.wired.com...right-decision/
To be honest I haven't heard anything since... but this might make things a whole heck-of-a-lot messier.
Supreme Court Says Congress May Re-Copyright Public Domain Works
http://www.wired.com...right-decision/
To be honest I haven't heard anything since... but this might make things a whole heck-of-a-lot messier.
#17 Members - Reputation: 196
Posted 08 February 2012 - 05:11 PM
StauntonLick, on 08 February 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:
Ah that's the harp bit in the intro (which I agree is different) - The bit I'm talking about is most audible at 01:29 in the Bastion tune. I don't have a notation tool on this machine, but it sounds like a string/flute combo (possibly synth) with a lower cello and bass drum part.
Yes, seems to be a library track. But Darren Korb made very good use of it, I really like how it ties in with the rest.
Check out my Music/Sound Design Reel on moritzpgkatz.de
#18 Members - Reputation: 148
Posted 09 February 2012 - 07:48 AM
Not to derail the conversation further, but I was on another forum and someone mentioned that they recognize some Apple Logic loops in the Bastion soundtrack as well. Not to detract from Darren Korb's work at all (it's still a great soundtrack), but I was wondering what peoples' opinions were on using canned library loops in their soundtracks?
It hadn't actually occurred to me as an option before, but it sounds like there's a line to be trodden between legitimate usage of loops and musical "cheating", where you're just chucking together a load of other people's work.
While I haven't tried it myself it sounds like a good means of gaining inspiration, and also quickly building up a large soundtrack without having to spend time producing every single sound yourself.
It hadn't actually occurred to me as an option before, but it sounds like there's a line to be trodden between legitimate usage of loops and musical "cheating", where you're just chucking together a load of other people's work.
While I haven't tried it myself it sounds like a good means of gaining inspiration, and also quickly building up a large soundtrack without having to spend time producing every single sound yourself.
#19 Members - Reputation: 116
Posted 10 February 2012 - 02:24 PM
Thanks for the replies and derail 
Since we're somewhat on the topic, imagine this scenario
Bill is a game developer, he makes a game but the game has no sound, he decides to make an advert 'buying' sound and music to use in his game. Bob replies to the advert, claims he is legit etc and gives music to Bill, Bill puts the sound in his game, launches the game and gets sued for millions, loses his job, his wife and kids leave him and his dog dies.
What should Bill have done to ensure the music was genuine, without hiring expensive lawyers / fact checkers, would it be as simple as getting a signed declaration from Bob with him saying it is legit? If so how exactly would that work without 'witnesses'.
Probably best for Business / Law section, sadly when I made this thread I never noticed that section
My situation at the moment is, I am towards the end of finishing my game, but it has no sound, although I am quite good at playing the piano I typically avoid composing, mainly because I can spend weeks trying to make something and it still wouldnt be complete and chances are it will not sound great for the scene I was after. Now I am ok with spending money for music but I cant afford a legal team to ensure everything is legit and as much 'fun' as it would be composing, I would prefer to stick to the development side of things for now.
Since we're somewhat on the topic, imagine this scenario
Bill is a game developer, he makes a game but the game has no sound, he decides to make an advert 'buying' sound and music to use in his game. Bob replies to the advert, claims he is legit etc and gives music to Bill, Bill puts the sound in his game, launches the game and gets sued for millions, loses his job, his wife and kids leave him and his dog dies.
What should Bill have done to ensure the music was genuine, without hiring expensive lawyers / fact checkers, would it be as simple as getting a signed declaration from Bob with him saying it is legit? If so how exactly would that work without 'witnesses'.
Probably best for Business / Law section, sadly when I made this thread I never noticed that section
My situation at the moment is, I am towards the end of finishing my game, but it has no sound, although I am quite good at playing the piano I typically avoid composing, mainly because I can spend weeks trying to make something and it still wouldnt be complete and chances are it will not sound great for the scene I was after. Now I am ok with spending money for music but I cant afford a legal team to ensure everything is legit and as much 'fun' as it would be composing, I would prefer to stick to the development side of things for now.
#20 Moderators - Reputation: 1434
Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:00 PM
First off - I'm not a lawyer. So take my input with a grain of salt and always seek legal advice before signing something.
First off save the advert. Document what claims are being made as this would help establish that you were seeking a service provided by this person/company. If the company conducts bad business then you, as am unknowing customer, shouldn't be held liable. If you cannot save the advert then save all emails, IMs, etc with the client before you seal the deal. Explain clearly what you need and what you're after then save his responses. All of this will help document and prove the type of working relationship you, as the customer, created.
Yep. That's what I'd do. Create an agreement that, in the case of any legal action related to the audio provided, the composer/sound design (or merchant selling the items to you) will be responsible for any and all costs and indemnify both you and the game. You could probably find one online. If not, talk to a lawyer or ask someone who knows about the law so you can create the appropriate kind of langauge. Keep all records and communications with this artist or merchant. The more mainstream you go - the more likely the merchant will have done due diligence and less likely that you'll face any legal issues related to audio. But if you're dealing with a one-man company the chance is there... especially if they're not well known.
I've had to sign similar agreements or contracts with a clause basically saying that if the music or audio is found to be in copyright - I would be held responsible and not the team or the project.
I don't think you really need a notary for something like this. Instead I would send the document in an email, which you CC yourself on and explain what it is and why you're asking for it to be signed. Most freelancers have had to do this before and will be fine signing it. Then save both digital and hardcopies of that agreement. If anything should happen you have a very clear paper trail which shows the audio provider understood and agreed to what the clause states.
Hope that helps,
Nate
Quote
Bob replies to the advert...
First off save the advert. Document what claims are being made as this would help establish that you were seeking a service provided by this person/company. If the company conducts bad business then you, as am unknowing customer, shouldn't be held liable. If you cannot save the advert then save all emails, IMs, etc with the client before you seal the deal. Explain clearly what you need and what you're after then save his responses. All of this will help document and prove the type of working relationship you, as the customer, created.
Quote
...would it be as simple as getting a signed declaration from Bob with him saying it is legit?
Yep. That's what I'd do. Create an agreement that, in the case of any legal action related to the audio provided, the composer/sound design (or merchant selling the items to you) will be responsible for any and all costs and indemnify both you and the game. You could probably find one online. If not, talk to a lawyer or ask someone who knows about the law so you can create the appropriate kind of langauge. Keep all records and communications with this artist or merchant. The more mainstream you go - the more likely the merchant will have done due diligence and less likely that you'll face any legal issues related to audio. But if you're dealing with a one-man company the chance is there... especially if they're not well known.
I've had to sign similar agreements or contracts with a clause basically saying that if the music or audio is found to be in copyright - I would be held responsible and not the team or the project.
Quote
If so how exactly would that work without 'witnesses'.
I don't think you really need a notary for something like this. Instead I would send the document in an email, which you CC yourself on and explain what it is and why you're asking for it to be signed. Most freelancers have had to do this before and will be fine signing it. Then save both digital and hardcopies of that agreement. If anything should happen you have a very clear paper trail which shows the audio provider understood and agreed to what the clause states.
Hope that helps,
Nate
