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#21 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 9860

Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:19 AM

See I was thinking the other day about some kind of concept where you actually script your own AI, e.g. you control a bunch of characters and you can script their own individual AI using some kind of language (like choose a default target, what do to if the healer is being attacked, and being able to communicate with the other character's AI's and giving/receiving orders, etc...). Kind of like robocode but less academic.

A number of 'hardcore' RPGs already allow something like this. For example, take a look at Dragon Age's Tactics - it's nowhere near a full scripting language, but it allows you to quite significantly change the behaviour of allied NPCs.

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#22 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 933

Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:17 PM


See I was thinking the other day about some kind of concept where you actually script your own AI, e.g. you control a bunch of characters and you can script their own individual AI using some kind of language (like choose a default target, what do to if the healer is being attacked, and being able to communicate with the other character's AI's and giving/receiving orders, etc...). Kind of like robocode but less academic.

A number of 'hardcore' RPGs already allow something like this. For example, take a look at Dragon Age's Tactics - it's nowhere near a full scripting language, but it allows you to quite significantly change the behaviour of allied NPCs.


I have been designing, and doing a little programming on, an mmorpg where the player avatars never log off and you can set yours to various behaviors, or allow others to use it while you are offline. You can set various general and specific orders, and there are default settings, like defend your town if its attacked or handle shopkeeping. Complex stuff might involve gathering resources or following along on raiding or something.

What will probably end up happening is that I will say fuck it too much work and just make a single player game with AI and play it by myself. Because as everyone here would be glad to tell me, mmorpgs are almost impossible alone.

#23 Luckless   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1766

Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:02 AM



See I was thinking the other day about some kind of concept where you actually script your own AI, e.g. you control a bunch of characters and you can script their own individual AI using some kind of language (like choose a default target, what do to if the healer is being attacked, and being able to communicate with the other character's AI's and giving/receiving orders, etc...). Kind of like robocode but less academic.

A number of 'hardcore' RPGs already allow something like this. For example, take a look at Dragon Age's Tactics - it's nowhere near a full scripting language, but it allows you to quite significantly change the behaviour of allied NPCs.


I have been designing, and doing a little programming on, an mmorpg where the player avatars never log off and you can set yours to various behaviors, or allow others to use it while you are offline. You can set various general and specific orders, and there are default settings, like defend your town if its attacked or handle shopkeeping. Complex stuff might involve gathering resources or following along on raiding or something.

What will probably end up happening is that I will say fuck it too much work and just make a single player game with AI and play it by myself. Because as everyone here would be glad to tell me, mmorpgs are almost impossible alone.


Try an LMORPG? A Low-Multiplayer-Online. Expected to have no more than 100 users on a server, more likely 20-50 on average.

But personally I think the idea of "Always Logged in", while a great theory, is likely going to prove exceptionally hard to pull off due to griefers. In a large scale game, people would find ways to abuse any automated system you put in, and force players to do something to have a negative impact on the character while they're not there to stop it. So doing it in a smaller scale environment where users can have more control over the server may be better. If they're allowed to host their own invite only servers, then the problem of griefers fall on their shoulders, not yours. After all, they were the ones who invited them.
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#24 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8533

Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:15 AM

Try an LMORPG? A Low-Multiplayer-Online. Expected to have no more than 100 users on a server, more likely 20-50 on average.

But personally I think the idea of "Always Logged in", while a great theory, is likely going to prove exceptionally hard to pull off due to griefers. In a large scale game, people would find ways to abuse any automated system you put in, and force players to do something to have a negative impact on the character while they're not there to stop it. So doing it in a smaller scale environment where users can have more control over the server may be better. If they're allowed to host their own invite only servers, then the problem of griefers fall on their shoulders, not yours. After all, they were the ones who invited them.

True but it depends on what you are allowed to make your avatar do while you are not there to control it. It can range from the basic "make it an unkillable shopseller with your own list of wares" which is hardly griefable, save perhaps for the location at which you put your avatar, to a complex scripting system (where people could lead a pack of enemies into your avatar and thus indirectly kill it while you are absent). It isn't an easy problem to solve, but then griefing has been around forever, and a lot of heuristic or community solutions exist (not the least of which is to simply use a whitelist as you suggested).

And you may also inadvertently make it so that a well-scripted avatar actually plays better than the average human player (I wouldn't be surprised...), which also introduces a whole lot of problems, especially in MMO's and such competitive games.

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#25 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 933

Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:25 AM




See I was thinking the other day about some kind of concept where you actually script your own AI, e.g. you control a bunch of characters and you can script their own individual AI using some kind of language (like choose a default target, what do to if the healer is being attacked, and being able to communicate with the other character's AI's and giving/receiving orders, etc...). Kind of like robocode but less academic.

A number of 'hardcore' RPGs already allow something like this. For example, take a look at Dragon Age's Tactics - it's nowhere near a full scripting language, but it allows you to quite significantly change the behaviour of allied NPCs.


I have been designing, and doing a little programming on, an mmorpg where the player avatars never log off and you can set yours to various behaviors, or allow others to use it while you are offline. You can set various general and specific orders, and there are default settings, like defend your town if its attacked or handle shopkeeping. Complex stuff might involve gathering resources or following along on raiding or something.

What will probably end up happening is that I will say fuck it too much work and just make a single player game with AI and play it by myself. Because as everyone here would be glad to tell me, mmorpgs are almost impossible alone.


Try an LMORPG? A Low-Multiplayer-Online. Expected to have no more than 100 users on a server, more likely 20-50 on average.

But personally I think the idea of "Always Logged in", while a great theory, is likely going to prove exceptionally hard to pull off due to griefers. In a large scale game, people would find ways to abuse any automated system you put in, and force players to do something to have a negative impact on the character while they're not there to stop it. So doing it in a smaller scale environment where users can have more control over the server may be better. If they're allowed to host their own invite only servers, then the problem of griefers fall on their shoulders, not yours. After all, they were the ones who invited them.


Well the game has no PvP, and the PvE is cooperative, essentially its the players vs the environment and fucking up another player hurts you too. Also I was thinking of a restricted server, ie you would have to be vouched for by current players to join. And its not really commercial, so small playerbase is no biggy. Also not anyone can just walk up and use your avatar, you can list first the things it is allowed to do, and second which players are allowed to use it for which things.

I guess someone could still grief if they worked hard but instant perma ban kinda makes it so you would have to spend months building up a character to get one small griefing chance.

This would never work in an open sign ups commercial game of course.

#26 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8533

Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:39 AM

Also not anyone can just walk up and use your avatar, you can list first the things it is allowed to do, and second which players are allowed to use it for which things.

Rent-a-slave, conditions apply Posted Image I thought you meant the avatar actually played while you were absent, AI-style. But come to think of it that's probably going to be more destructive to your avatar than actually letting people use it.

I guess someone could still grief if they worked hard but instant perma ban kinda makes it so you would have to spend months building up a character to get one small griefing chance.

That's a good point, if the effort vs reward is too big, then griefing will automatically stop. The problem, of course, is that usually, griefing can be done with a level 1 character.

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#27 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:13 AM

And you may also inadvertently make it so that a well-scripted avatar actually plays better than the average human player (I wouldn't be surprised...), which also introduces a whole lot of problems, especially in MMO's and such competitive games.

This is what I find worrysome. What happens when the 1000 or so people put in enough time to make their ships fully automated and godlike? Even if it's totally by accident if they leave for a week and come back to find out their ship has been griefing new players that whole week or that they've been banned.

I'm curious to know how having to support a 16 bit CPU as part of gameplay will affect the rest of the gameplay's polish. It seems like the most unnecessary part of the design imo. I'm actually less inclined to play the game knowing that's part of the gameplay.

#28 Luckless   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1766

Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:00 AM

That's a good point, if the effort vs reward is too big, then griefing will automatically stop. The problem, of course, is that usually, griefing can be done with a level 1 character.


You seem to grossly underestimate the lengths some people will go to grief people. In one server for a game I play, we had this player who would come on just to spam this annoying audio clip. He was banned in less than a minute after an admin was able to get logged into the tool and kick him. Including warning times, etc.

a minute later, he came back, with a different account. Banned again in less than 30 seconds. He did this a few times in a row, then took awhile longer to come back, but he did. Banned a 5th or 6th time. Then another admin apparently setup a quick and dirty program that intercepted the audio and was watching each users's first 5 minutes for that clip. The player has joined over 100 times last I heard, and has been kicked in less than 5 seconds.
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.

#29 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8533

Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:12 AM

You seem to grossly underestimate the lengths some people will go to grief people. In one server for a game I play, we had this player who would come on just to spam this annoying audio clip. He was banned in less than a minute after an admin was able to get logged into the tool and kick him. Including warning times, etc.

a minute later, he came back, with a different account. Banned again in less than 30 seconds. He did this a few times in a row, then took awhile longer to come back, but he did. Banned a 5th or 6th time. Then another admin apparently setup a quick and dirty program that intercepted the audio and was watching each users's first 5 minutes for that clip. The player has joined over 100 times last I heard, and has been kicked in less than 5 seconds.

It was an average, not a worst case figure. There's always going to be some people like that. I agree though, one griefer is enough to ruin the game for everybody else.

A solution to this would be to require a valid credit card to play the game (without actually charging anything), with the ability to ban players along with their credit cards (not officially, of course, but if they attempt to sign up again with the same credit card, it fails). Unless they have hundreds of spare credit cards lying around, which I doubt, it will be difficult to bypass the ban (and they can't enter bogus cards as it's verified by the bank).

I think we're derailing the topic a bit here, though.

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#30 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 933

Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:33 AM

Also not anyone can just walk up and use your avatar, you can list first the things it is allowed to do, and second which players are allowed to use it for which things.

Rent-a-slave, conditions apply Posted Image I thought you meant the avatar actually played while you were absent, AI-style. But come to think of it that's probably going to be more destructive to your avatar than actually letting people use it.

I guess someone could still grief if they worked hard but instant perma ban kinda makes it so you would have to spend months building up a character to get one small griefing chance.

That's a good point, if the effort vs reward is too big, then griefing will automatically stop. The problem, of course, is that usually, griefing can be done with a level 1 character.


Well the Avatar can play by itself if you set it to do so I guess. Nothing too complex though.

Well you have to design the game so that griefing is not as easy as rolling a new level one and ruining someone's week. You can't just stick it in to any game.




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