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What do you think about Turn based combat?


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#1 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:31 AM

Like DnD for example.

Do you think there's any advantage using turn based over real time?

I could totally see the DnD combat system in real time.

For example different spells have different casting times that takes more than a turn to cast.
Easy to transform into real time by just making it take seconds instead of turns.

I think the only "good" thing about turn based... I hate using the word good because it can be bad too.. depends on the player.. I think it's bad at least.
Is that you don't need to have as quick reactions... so it's less skillful.

I used to be fan of turn based in singleplayer games and I thought it might be unique and fresh to add it to a mmo but like I said I don't see the advantage of it.

So What do you think about turn based vs real time?

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#2 KenjiSenpai   Members   -  Reputation: 231

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:37 AM

Turn based combat gives the player a chance to not rely on any fast action thinking. What this creates is the ability for designer to make more complex combat systems affected by many more factors and gives the player a more ''intelectual'' gameplay. The Heroes of Might and Magic series, especially Heroes 3 (imo) is a very good example of well made turn based combats, I suggest you take a look at it.

#3 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4004

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:34 AM

I like turn based games, but I'm wary of turn based combat. It depends. Turn based combat tend to be too long, which is annoying. In Heroes it was good (small combat terrain, few units, combat not terribly frequent), in Master of Orion 2 it was awesome (strightforward, AI played in combat very well so you could click auto anytime you had too many units or simply were not in a mood). I have mixed feeling about RPGs, like Fallout it was OK because you had just one character to control directly, but in RPGs where you control a whole party of adventurers and you have to play tactical combat because you encountered 2 rats... I also liked the Might&Magic 3-5, the turn based combat there was blazing fast, so you could simply click the same set of keys when when encountered goblins (you were able to set default action, so you pressed space and the warrior attacked and the portrait highligheted was mage whcih has the default cast a spell) and when you encountered dragons you could take your time and think carefully.

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#4 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 21198

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:09 AM

Do you think there's any advantage using turn based over real time?

Yes, if by 'advantage' you mean 'trade offs'.

For example different spells have different casting times that takes more than a turn to cast.
Easy to transform into real time by just making it take seconds instead of turns.

Like Knights of the Old Republic? That game leans more towards turn-based, but still keeping the action part of things.

I think the only "good" thing about turn based... I hate using the word good because it can be bad too.. depends on the player.. I think it's bad at least.
Is that you don't need to have as quick reactions... so it's less skillful.

You equate 'quick reactions' to 'skill'. Quick reactions is only one type of skill. Logical thinking is another type of skill, and Turn Based games often focus on that. Chess vs Football. It takes skill to be a chess player, it takes skill to be a football player... but completely different types of skills, and neither is necessarily 'more skillful' or 'less skillful' then the other.

I used to be fan of turn based in singleplayer games and I thought it might be unique and fresh to add it to a mmo but like I said I don't see the advantage of it.

That's funny, because behind the scenes, many MMOs (WoW included) are turn-based games played out in real time. Sure, they're not "pure" turn-based, but they aren't pure action either. They are definitely a mix between turn-based and action (I think it makes it easier to keep the game synchronized with the server)


I could totally see the DnD combat system in real time.

I've played DnD combat systems in real time. Posted Image
Baulder's Gate: Dark Alliance, for one. Many of the 3rd person cooperative dungeon crawler games are DnD real-time games... Perhaps not what you are thinking of when you say that phrase, though. Those ones lean more towards real-time, but less so than most MMOs.

So What do you think about turn based vs real time?

I prefer a mix of the two. Turn-based with action timers. If many MMOs are turn-based and action, heavily leaning toward action, I want to see more games (cooperative, singleplayer, or online) that are turn-based and action, heavily leaning toward turn-based (even more so than KOTOR but less so than Final Fantasy).

We have a selection of games that cover many of the spaces between pure-turn-based and pure-action-based.

Example:
Posted Image
These are just games (with the exception of WoW) that I've actually played and experienced first-hand. I'm actually running out the door right now, so these are only the first examples that came to mind but surely there are plenty more.

My desired games are somewhere between the 'Final Fantasy' and 'KOTOR'. Those games probably already exist, I just haven't played many.
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#5 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:24 AM


Do you think there's any advantage using turn based over real time?

Yes, if by 'advantage' you mean 'trade offs'.

For example different spells have different casting times that takes more than a turn to cast.
Easy to transform into real time by just making it take seconds instead of turns.

Like Knights of the Old Republic? That game leans more towards turn-based, but still keeping the action part of things.

I think the only "good" thing about turn based... I hate using the word good because it can be bad too.. depends on the player.. I think it's bad at least.
Is that you don't need to have as quick reactions... so it's less skillful.

You equate 'quick reactions' to 'skill'. Quick reactions is only one type of skill. Logical thinking is another type of skill, and Turn Based games often focus on that. Chess vs Football. It takes skill to be a chess player, it takes skill to be a football player... but completely different types of skills, and neither is necessarily 'more skillful' or 'less skillful' then the other.

I used to be fan of turn based in singleplayer games and I thought it might be unique and fresh to add it to a mmo but like I said I don't see the advantage of it.

That's funny, because behind the scenes, many MMOs (WoW included) are turn-based games played out in real time. Sure, they're not "pure" turn-based, but they aren't pure action either. They are definitely a mix between turn-based and action (I think it makes it easier to keep the game synchronized with the server)


I could totally see the DnD combat system in real time.

I've played DnD combat systems in real time. Posted Image
Baulder's Gate: Dark Alliance, for one. Many of the 3rd person cooperative dungeon crawler games are DnD real-time games... Perhaps not what you are thinking of when you say that phrase, though. Those ones lean more towards real-time, but less so than most MMOs.

So What do you think about turn based vs real time?

I prefer a mix of the two. Turn-based with action timers. If many MMOs are turn-based and action, heavily leaning toward action, I want to see more games (cooperative, singleplayer, or online) that are turn-based and action, heavily leaning toward turn-based (even more so than KOTOR but less so than Final Fantasy).

We have a selection of games that cover many of the spaces between pure-turn-based and pure-action-based.

Example:
Posted Image
These are just games (with the exception of WoW) that I've actually played and experienced first-hand. I'm actually running out the door right now, so these are only the first examples that came to mind but surely there are plenty more.

My desired games are somewhere between the 'Final Fantasy' and 'KOTOR'. Those games probably already exist, I just haven't played many.


I just disagree with pretty much everything you've said.
WoW is not turn based at all.. That's just laughable.

And chess is turn based but you still have a timer that stresses you to make quick decisions because if the timer runs out before you win then you lose.
So if the only reason you're making better and smarter moves than your opponent is because you think 10 times longer each turn than him then you're going to lose.

Point is that you can make very deeply thought out moves even in real time if you have a lot of experience.
So saying that turn based makes it more of a thinking game is wrong.. because you think just as much in real time.
Real time = reaction + thinking + thinking fast (more skillful thinking)
Turn based = only thinking.

#6 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19431

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:30 AM

Here's a blog post discussing turn based and real time systems -- the author notes a number of advantages and disadvantages to each. In particular, real time systems can be confusing for more complex scenarios, and turn based systems can allow a player to notice more details, and to make more considered choices.

Do you think there's any advantage using turn based over real time?

Turn based systems allow players to spend more time considering their actions rather than going with a gut instinct or learning patterns of "what usually works".


A turn based system might also allow a player to take a more sophisticated set of actions rather than something more simple. If you consider your own example of D&D, in a single turn (supposed to represent 6 seconds of "real time") a player can take a swift action (any quick action, such as opening a jar, closing a door, etc.), a standard action (attacking, casting a spell, using a skill, etc.) AND a move action. They might also take a free action (calling out to another character). Given the massive choice of actions available, it would be difficult (if not impossible) for a player to choose all those actions within a 6 second real-time period.

You can of course compensate for this with combination actions that do multiple things at once, or by simply creating a game where less actions are taken at once, but you're then choosing a trade-off where the choices available to players are simplified in order to have a more real-time experience.



One popular compromise of sorts is a "simultaneous turns" system -- typically in these systems, each player chooses a set of actions, and then all of the results are resolved at once. If you combine this with a timer in which the player has to make their decisions, you could potentially have a bit of both worlds.


Is that you don't need to have as quick reactions... so it's less skillful.

There are plenty of skills that are not -- or do not rely on -- quick reactions.

#7 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:43 AM


Do you think there's any advantage using turn based over real time?

Turn based systems allow players to spend more time considering their actions rather than going with a gut instinct or learning patterns of "what usually works".


A turn based system might also allow a player to take a more sophisticated set of actions rather than something more simple. If you consider your own example of D&D, in a single turn (supposed to represent 6 seconds of "real time") a player can take a swift action (any quick action, such as opening a jar, closing a door, etc.), a standard action (attacking, casting a spell, using a skill, etc.) AND a move action. They might also take a free action (calling out to another character). Given the massive choice of actions available, it would be difficult (if not impossible) for a player to choose all those actions within a 6 second real-time period.

You can of course compensate for this with combination actions that do multiple things at once, or by simply creating a game where less actions are taken at once, but you're then choosing a trade-off where the choices available to players are simplified in order to have a more real-time experience.



One popular compromise of sorts is a "simultaneous turns" system -- typically in these systems, each player chooses a set of actions, and then all of the results are resolved at once. If you combine this with a timer in which the player has to make their decisions, you could potentially have a bit of both worlds.


Is that you don't need to have as quick reactions... so it's less skillful.

There are plenty of skills that are not -- or do not rely on -- quick reactions.


I saw simultaneuous turns in Civ 5 and I think it was terrible.. but then again that's just my opinion.

And about all the different things you can do in a turn... I can easily do all that within 6 seconds.
I can move and attack at the same time very easy.. nevermind picking up something.. I can even jump into the air.. hit return to bring chat up and type a short sentence before I land to continue moving around. And with moves that makes the enemy player lose control of his character for even just 1 sec is enough for you to think of the best move(s) to do next.. Personally I don't even need to do player controlling moves to be able to think ahead what to do. I know what abilities I have and I know what situations I should use them in.

#8 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19431

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:43 AM

I thought it might be unique and fresh to add it to a mmo

Strikes me as frustrating, having to wait on the choices of other players.

#9 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:50 AM


I thought it might be unique and fresh to add it to a mmo

Strikes me as frustrating, having to wait on the choices of other players.


Well, That would depend if there's any advantage to having turn based or not..
If there's no real advantage then I agree, it's just a frustration Posted Image

Edit:
It feels as if turn based is a bit like the school.
You can only learn as fast as the entire class is learning.
If you study too fast you'll just have to wait for the class to catch up.

#10 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19431

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:06 AM

And about all the different things you can do in a turn... I can easily do all that within 6 seconds.

Sorry, but I simply don't believe you -- you certainly can get plenty done within 6 seconds in a real time game, but you can't say it isn't possible to do more (or at least to potentially consider more -- or more detailed -- options) in a turn based system.

Taking an example from D&D again, within a single turn:
  • You may choose whether or not to take a free action, of which there are several to choose from. If you happen to have access to "quickened spells" you might need to choose a spell (there are hundreds, and the typical player can have access to quite a lot in any given situation) for this.
  • You may also choose to take a swift action. Again, there are numerous potential options to choose from.
  • You may also choose to take a standard action. Your standard action might be one of numerous types of attacks available to you OR it might be to cast one of hundreds of available spells OR it might be to activate one of numerous abilities OR it might be to use one of around 20 different skills OR it might be to change stance or similar. You could also choose to sacrifice your standard action and instead take an additional swift action or to double-move.
  • You may also choose to take a move action, which can involve a number of different types of movement.
  • Instead of ALL of the above, you might choose to take a "full round action", or if you have already done some of the above you might choose to start a "full round action" that will also consume part of your next turn.
  • You might choose to "hold" your action, thereby delaying your turn until some specified trigger-point later in the round.
...and you can be that detailed every single turn, without falter -- carefully considering all of the available options -- and without having to rely on common patterns of reaction.

I'm not saying you can't do a lot in real-time. I am saying you can do more (or do the same amount, but choose from a larger and more detailed pool of potential options) in a turn-based system. You may or may not want this for your game, but you asked if there were any advantages to turn-based systems, and that is clearly one of them. I'm sure that in the typical real-time game you do know all of the available options and are able to quickly make appropriate decisions, but in a turn-based system it's possible to present more options than the player could possibly remember off the top of their head and still have them be able to make an informed choice based on those options.


A potential downside of all that extra choice is that unless some time limit is set you can sometimes end up waiting on players to make their decisions, and (even with time limits) combat or any other complex interaction can really start to drag. If you impose too short a time-limit, you also start to lose the advantage.



Another potential advantage of a turn-based system is that you have the time to carefully examine the play-field.
It's a certain skill to notice something important happening amongst many actions all occurring at once, and to react appropriately. It's an entirely different skill set to carefully examine the entire play field in detail, and carefully choose an appropriate action based upon that, knowing that your opponents are also examining your moves and positioning in fine detail.

#11 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:34 AM


And about all the different things you can do in a turn... I can easily do all that within 6 seconds.

Sorry, but I simply don't believe you --


What reason would I have to come here and lie about that?
I know I can do it because I can.
I've been playing games for more than 15 years.

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean other people can't do it.
So if you don't believe me then I guess the discussion between us ends at that.

Your argument about having 100 skills to choose between for a each situation is pretty crazy too.
I mean sure there can easily be 100 skills in the game.. but not all for the same type of situation.. that means you would have to have over a thousand skills in the game.

When I played WoW for example I probably had around 50 abilities hotkeyed/keybinded. I used up every single hotbar slot available.
Doesn't mean I had to decide between them all for each situation.. All skills are used for different situations.

#12 KenjiSenpai   Members   -  Reputation: 231

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:20 AM

Sorry glhf but the human brain is limited theres simply stuff you cant analyse just as fast WoW is a no-brainer game you can macro your abilities but for turnbased strategy game its something else. Also the 100 skills to choose for each situation, Heroes of might and magic demonstrated that. Tons of spells that you can use for many situations and that will change the outcome of the battle in many ways.

Turn based games often have a much more complex combat systems that needs to player to predict the outcomes of his actions more than actions games or real time strategy games.

Also the fact that you've been playing games for more than 15 years is irrelevant.

#13 Karnot   Members   -  Reputation: 179

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:16 AM

My desired games are somewhere between the 'Final Fantasy' and 'KOTOR'.


Its a bit funny, since FF and KOTOR have exactly the same system, time-wise. You act, then you get a delay during which you cannot act, then you can act again. Same as in almost every D&D game on PC. I call it "round-based", because its fairly specific, and is neither turn-based, nor real-time.

Do you think there's any advantage using turn based over real time?

Yes. Outside of playing with unicums who can do a million of things in 5 seconds (yeah, right), turn-based system does usually offer more choice, detail, and complexity.

One other major reason - its not simultaneous. For example, if you have many units in different parts of the map - its impossible to be everywhere, notice everything, and control everyone at the same time. Some games, for example SRW, are designed primarily as spectacles. For such games its unforgivable if something happens away from your attention and you missed it. Other games you might want to attack the enemy from multiple sides, and have to hop between your units like a mad rabbit. Some games offer split-screen functionality or tracking windows, but its not quite the perfect solution. In turn-based you are always focused on the action, since everything is sequencial, not parallel.

#14 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:29 AM

Sorry glhf but the human brain is limited theres simply stuff you cant analyse just as fast

Also the fact that you've been playing games for more than 15 years is irrelevant.

I know it's hard to believe there are players that are much better than you out there..
Often bad players don't believe there are any better players than themselves.. if they lose it's because of bad luck.. or the opponent must be cheating in some way.

And it does make a huge difference how long you have been playing games.
In a few years you just might start noticing that.

So you're obviously wrong about the power of the human brain.
It can accomplish more than you think.. Because I can do it and I know many people that can do it too.

Oh and you can macro in all or at least most games.. either with third part program or if it's included in the game by default.

Do you think there's any advantage using turn based over real time?

Yes. Outside of playing with unicums who can do a million of things in 5 seconds (yeah, right), turn-based system does usually offer more choice, detail, and complexity.

One other major reason - its not simultaneous. For example, if you have many units in different parts of the map - its impossible to be everywhere, notice everything, and control everyone at the same time. Some games, for example SRW, are designed primarily as spectacles. For such games its unforgivable if something happens away from your attention and you missed it. Other games you might want to attack the enemy from multiple sides, and have to hop between your units like a mad rabbit. Some games offer split-screen functionality or tracking windows, but its not quite the perfect solution. In turn-based you are always focused on the action, since everything is sequencial, not parallel.


You can.. Look at the crazy korean sc players.

Anyways, I don't care about proving anything to you anymore.
It seems the only argument for turn based combat is that bad players think it's not possible to think through their actions in real time.

I know it is and since that is the only argument you had then I know turn based combat is a bad feature.

And reason I don't care about trying to make you understand is because you can't.
You are Ying and I am Yang. We will never be able to understand each other no matter what kind of discussion we have.

#15 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4004

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:29 AM

And about all the different things you can do in a turn... I can easily do all that within 6 seconds.

Note that it is not always about efficiency. For example I frequently use 1 hour to take the first turn when I play Civilization. I analyse the situation, determine the long term goals, recheck the description of unique units of my civilization once again, things like that. It's not that I really have to do it or that it make me play that much better, I simply LOVE to take my time before issuing orders in singleplayer turn based strategies :)

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#16 JTippetts   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8663

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:32 AM

In this thread, yet another troll disguises a stupid bash post with a thin veneer of "discussion", then gets angry when nobody agrees with him. I'm sorry, but trying to say that a turn-based game is "less skillful" than an action game is just... God, it's just stupid. No, glhf, you are not as awesome as you are trying to say you are. Sorry, but no.

If you don't like turn-based, don't make a turn-based game. Simple as that. But don' get mad if nobody else jumps on the bash train with you, and don't make stupid blanket statements under the guise of "discussion".

#17 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:43 AM

In this thread, yet another troll disguises a stupid bash post with a thin veneer of "discussion", then gets angry when nobody agrees with him. I'm sorry, but trying to say that a turn-based game is "less skillful" than an action game is just... God, it's just stupid. No, glhf, you are not as awesome as you are trying to say you are. Sorry, but no.

If you don't like turn-based, don't make a turn-based game. Simple as that. But don' get mad if nobody else jumps on the bash train with you, and don't make stupid blanket statements under the guise of "discussion".


Very insightful post you made in this thread... Let's see what did you contribute exactly?... Hmmm, Can't see anything else but you bashing me, calling me a lier and a troll.. and saying I didn't make thread to find out the advantages of turn based combat when in fact I did.

I made this thread to find out the advantages and now several people have said the same thing and the people that are getting angry are in fact YOU because you can't make me understand you. But if you read what I'm saying you will realise it's impossible to make me understand you because your argument is basicly that I'm lying.
I tried to help you all understand but if you think I'm not telling the truth then there's nothing I can do to help you.. Hence the Ying & Yang reference.
You think I'm being irrational if I get annoyed when I try to help you but you call me a lier in return?
Sigh.

#18 JTippetts   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8663

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:54 AM

It seems the only argument for turn based combat is that bad players think it's not possible to think through their actions in real time.


Sorry, but by anybody's definition of trolling, this is it. That's all it is. Just trolling, no redeeming value whatsoever in such statements. All your self-righteous claims that you're just trying to help us poor stupid bad players, because you've got a whole 15 years experience, only adds to the troll. You didn't, as you claim, make this thread to find out the advantages. You made this thread to bash turn-based. I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.



I am sorry I contributed to this thread, though. It made me feel dirty.



#19 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:05 AM


It seems the only argument for turn based combat is that bad players think it's not possible to think through their actions in real time.


Sorry, but by anybody's definition of trolling, this is it. That's all it is. Just trolling, no redeeming value whatsoever in such statements. All your self-righteous claims that you're just trying to help us poor stupid bad players, because you've got a whole 15 years experience, only adds to the troll. You didn't, as you claim, make this thread to find out the advantages. You made this thread to bash turn-based. I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.



I am sorry I contributed to this thread, though. It made me feel dirty.



I would say you're the one trolling.
I've contributed to the discussion with arguments to why real time is more skillful.
You haven't done anything else but bash me and call me a lier and troll.

I just thought there had to be a good reason for having turn based combat or else it wouldn't exist.
That's why I made this thread to find out what the reason(s) are because I couldn't think of any.

Sure, It might be fun/relaxing way of playing.. but if you want combat as skillful as it gets then real time is where the game should be at.
I don't understand what's so hard to understand about what I've said really.

#20 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3423

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:11 AM

I am sorry I contributed to this thread, though. It made me feel dirty.


The man does have a valid point Glhf, I myself have pretty much stepped back from posting in your threads (the irony of this post notwithstanding) due to the emotional entanglements you hold with your opinions. I like to see valid discussion, I like disagreements if they can reach a better answer. But you present an inflexibility in your replies that presupposes that a differing opinion is most of the time wrong. Don't forget this forum is filled with many people from many different sectors of the IT world as well inexperienced newcomers etc and some of these people will bring insights that are not normally understood at first glance. look deeper, ask questions, get more depth in an answer you disagree by asking for it.




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