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Outside the box - different professions that would work within an MMO


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#21 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:56 AM


Strange thing though, when you finish that last level, there is nothing left but those professions. Maybe it is something that people didn't think of -- why reroll a character, if you can retain your killer face-eating orc and make him pursue a degree in artistic smithing. There would be a lot of new content, and his (the player's) level would only help to ward off the monsters -- he would finally have time to entangle himself in a proper story-line. No rush or competition, just a journey of discovery.


And thus you unravel the purpose of this entire thread -- creating meaningful time-sinks outside the straightforward "level up and then do end-game at which point sit around bored or leave until new content"

Your virtual cookie now contains a fortune Posted Image


The issue with being stuck doing nothing is that in themeparks you are limited by how fast the dev team can make a new expansion and then raise the level cap and add new items to craft. In a sandbox with no level cap, item decay and so forth its much easier. If there is no dev defined story you don't have to wait for new chapters. Imagine a George RR Martin style 6 year wait for the next installment of story. Blargh!

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#22 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3424

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:01 AM

I was thinking about having some sort of teaching system that is more explicit though. Maybe just an addon to the social bonuses. Like if you simply watch a master craft, or he crafts an example and you craft your own attempt at the same design, you get an increase to skill growth compared to if you had crafted alone. Similarly he gets a small boost because he has to think and focus and explain what he is doing and how. Obviously you don't literally explain it because games can't process that, but you could roleplay that if you wanted. So each of you is being benefited by this as opposed to both crafting alone. You could also be paying for him to teach or be an apprentice and handle prep and gathering and then observe him working on a commission from another player.

As I said most of the actual effects of this would be an area scan for other crafters and for people building the same items and then a % bonus to experience. But you could roleplay it as more realistic.


hmm you could almost relegate a teacher profession to the level of a standard secondary profession shared by all toons doing it this way. I like that esp. as the systems of going off to buy training or alternatively leaving your self on auto-research mode leaves you less involved in the process. This could also develop into another form of economic trading as high teaching ability combined with a master craftsman levelled ability might teach more than say one with less skill...almost a pay by the skills learnt method. Implementing it though without seeming to be overburdensome might be tricky though.


Offtopic: And had been meaning to mention it before but AltarofScience's post gave me a mental reminder.

@Kyan
@AltarofScience

I wish you both well in your game/project - they both sound fun :)

#23 Zethariel   Members   -  Reputation: 310

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:12 AM

Best way to prolong a game's life is roleplay, where players themselves play a game within a game. RP servers were fun back in the day, all those serious guild meetings, worshipping chaos gods and passing judgement on missbehaving acolytes or initiating new people...

Grinding can be diminshed to some degree.

Typical scenario:
You are a smithy. You gain levels of smithing and are able to build better stuff. You grind, you're bored, you hit the top, and then the fun stops, you go to the Auction House and sell copypasta epic goods

Upgraded scenario:
You can build anything, given you find the right blueprints and pass the right mini-games, which would be difficult for a newbie, but not impossible (less incentive to grind). This way, you can (somewhat forcefully) engross the player in story, make him run around a bit, have a target at getting better and better without repeating the same task over and over. And, in this scenario, people's goods would vary, so it would be a thriving market instead of copypasta swords and shields.


The above can be done with combat as well -- all the Devil May Cry mechanics single-player games use are being used more often in today's games. Skill replaces grind, and games gain a longer life-span as a result.

Although not a perfect example, but LoL is a game that manages to conceal grind with fun. You esentially grind yourself to whatever objective you want -- a new level, a new hero, joining a ranked team. You engage in unique encounters most of the time, so there is very little repetition, if any.

Story based games may have a problem with that, unless a game would be based around a horde of hired Game Masters crafting the game as they go -- while not a massive multiplayer game, it could support a 1 GM per 2-3 people scenario. Which brings me to pen and paper RPGs -- which sooner or later will be translated into computers and games. The moment someone creates an AI capable of creative thought, that is the moment the best game ever will be created, with all the art assets, stories and immersion.

Whoops, got caught in the moment. Excuse the rambling *blush*
Disclaimer: Each my post is intended as an attempt of helping and/or brining some meaningfull insight to the topic at hand. Due to my nature, my good intentions will not always be plainly visible. I apologise in advance and assure I mean no harm and do not intend to insult anyone, unless stated otherwise

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#24 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:14 AM


I was thinking about having some sort of teaching system that is more explicit though. Maybe just an addon to the social bonuses. Like if you simply watch a master craft, or he crafts an example and you craft your own attempt at the same design, you get an increase to skill growth compared to if you had crafted alone. Similarly he gets a small boost because he has to think and focus and explain what he is doing and how. Obviously you don't literally explain it because games can't process that, but you could roleplay that if you wanted. So each of you is being benefited by this as opposed to both crafting alone. You could also be paying for him to teach or be an apprentice and handle prep and gathering and then observe him working on a commission from another player.

As I said most of the actual effects of this would be an area scan for other crafters and for people building the same items and then a % bonus to experience. But you could roleplay it as more realistic.


hmm you could almost relegate a teacher profession to the level of a standard secondary profession shared by all toons doing it this way. I like that esp. as the systems of going off to buy training or alternatively leaving your self on auto-research mode leaves you less involved in the process. This could also develop into another form of economic trading as high teaching ability combined with a master craftsman levelled ability might teach more than say one with less skill...almost a pay by the skills learnt method. Implementing it though without seeming to be overburdensome might be tricky though.


Offtopic: And had been meaning to mention it before but AltarofScience's post gave me a mental reminder.

@Kyan
@AltarofScience

I wish you both well in your game/project - they both sound fun Posted Image


I don't think coding it would actually be that tricky.

set(student-teacher bond)
if (both crafting)
teacher exp multiplier=1.1x
student exp multiplier=1.4x
student project result=1.2x

#25 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3424

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:24 AM

I don't think coding it would actually be that tricky.

set(student-teacher bond)
if (both crafting)
teacher exp multiplier=1.1x
student exp multiplier=1.4x
student project result=1.2x


Sadly my coding skills died when they upgraded the abacus and Augusta abandoned me for Charles :(.



I wants more professions :)

#26 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:30 AM


I don't think coding it would actually be that tricky.

set(student-teacher bond)
if (both crafting)
teacher exp multiplier=1.1x
student exp multiplier=1.4x
student project result=1.2x


Sadly my coding skills died when they upgraded the abacus and Augusta abandoned me for Charles Posted Image.



I wants more professions Posted Image


Well in part of my earlier posts I described how to have a nearly infinite set of professions.

As a list of semi-specific skills I am including and encourage others to include as well:
Climbing
Ship Sailing
Airship Sailing
Mechanics/Repairer
Maigc(contains like 25-100 separate schools you could focus on plus combinations)
Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Trap Maker
Poison Maker
Acid Maker
Metal Forger
Wood Carver
Oil maker/User
Breeder
Food Maker
Stone Worker
Vehicle Maker
Ship Maker
Airship Maker
Builder
Engineer
Landscaping
Architecture
Artist
Fabric Maker
Thread Maker
Clothier
Shop Keeper
Teacher
Pot Maker
Enchanter
Engraver
A lot of others but I think you get the point.
The only limit is your imagination, and possibly your graphics programming skills.

#27 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3424

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:35 AM

As a list of semi-specific skills I am including and encourage others to include as well:
Climbing
Ship Sailing
Airship Sailing
Mechanics/Repairer
Maigc(contains like 25-100 separate schools you could focus on plus combinations)
Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Trap Maker
Poison Maker
Acid Maker
Metal Forger
Wood Carver
Oil maker/User
Breeder
Food Maker
Stone Worker
Vehicle Maker
Ship Maker
Airship Maker
Builder
Engineer
Landscaping
Architecture
Artist
Fabric Maker
Thread Maker
Clothier
Shop Keeper
Teacher
Pot Maker
Enchanter
Engraver


Excellent. Now what mini-game (time-sink) variation for each one please :P

I of course don't expect you to do that, but more am looking for rounded posts in that sense or aspects like your ealier post that bring depth to the entire discussion.

#28 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:48 AM


As a list of semi-specific skills I am including and encourage others to include as well:
Climbing
Ship Sailing
Airship Sailing
Mechanics/Repairer
Maigc(contains like 25-100 separate schools you could focus on plus combinations)
Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Trap Maker
Poison Maker
Acid Maker
Metal Forger
Wood Carver
Oil maker/User
Breeder
Food Maker
Stone Worker
Vehicle Maker
Ship Maker
Airship Maker
Builder
Engineer
Landscaping
Architecture
Artist
Fabric Maker
Thread Maker
Clothier
Shop Keeper
Teacher
Pot Maker
Enchanter
Engraver


Excellent. Now what mini-game (time-sink) variation for each one please Posted Image

I of course don't expect you to do that, but more am looking for rounded posts in that sense or aspects like your ealier post that bring depth to the entire discussion.


Actually a lot of those skills do have minigames. Sailing and Flying for instance. Alchemy, Forging, Making Alloys and so forth. Climbing has a mini-game, too.

For forging its this:
You make a bar of metal. You heat it up. Then you beat on it and each hit has an effect, mainly flattening. You might want to fold the metal, or make an edge and so forth. You have heating and cooling cycles limited stamina, ie how long you can keep beating before the item is crafted, and so forth.

For climbing its this:
You have ropes or chains or something flexible. You have the option of special shoes or gloves and harnesses. You also have pitons and a hammer. Based on your skill, modified by the lead climber of course, and the steepness of the face plus maybe its handhold score(which you can change by carving handholds) you have a small chance of falling every time you try to move. If you fall you drop down to your last piton just like real climbing.
As I said you can modify difficulty by carving handholds, this was something done by Native Americans at Mesa Verde. You can also leave your pitons and ropes up. You could build and leave a rope ladder. In theory, although it would take a long time, you could carve out steps or the inside of the mountain and whatever other things I have forgotten. I suppose technically this stuff is more crafting than mini-game but the piton and rope part is a mini-game.

Some things don't really have mini-games. For instance art. You just paint. Or sew on shinies to clothes or w/e. Carving sorta has a minigame, its more like a special screen that is a specialized modeling program.

Alchemy is part mini-game and part research. Should you grind or powder something? Boil it? The minigame involves mixing it, adding water, boiling, maybe dealing with precipitates. Did you add an ingredient at the right time, get the right concentration? Stuff like that.

I suppose clothing is a mini-game in a sense. Stitching and knitting and what not.

A lot of things are less mini-games and more special user interfaces. Construction for instance. You place all the building materials, say bricks. You could also have prefabs sorta like a modelling program where you can make a group of bricks and place that group instead of each single brick. And so forth. Ship and airship building works pretty much like making buildings.

I could write you a 1000000 word book on the whole system or you could ask about any specific professions and how I am implementing them, or what some implementations I am not personally using are. Or you could not ask anything. Its all fine with me.

#29 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3424

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:12 AM

I forgot to mention -- I am interested in the idea of how these professions suggested would be utilisable as effective and ongoing timesinks (without the drudgery that seems prevalent in a lot of the existing MMO's) i.e. a mini-game within a game but as a profession.


Mostly it's my fault for the confusion. I used the word mini-game as a coverall term but meaning a larger expansion then necessarily locking it down to simplistic actions or limited interactions i.e. more depth, not grinding persay but rather creativity bought into the processes as well involving the pplayer in different and exciting ways.

#30 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:28 AM


I forgot to mention -- I am interested in the idea of how these professions suggested would be utilisable as effective and ongoing timesinks (without the drudgery that seems prevalent in a lot of the existing MMO's) i.e. a mini-game within a game but as a profession.


Mostly it's my fault for the confusion. I used the word mini-game as a coverall term but meaning a larger expansion then necessarily locking it down to simplistic actions or limited interactions i.e. more depth, not grinding persay but rather creativity bought into the processes as well involving the pplayer in different and exciting ways.


I mean, most professions in real life are drudgery. So I am not sure what you are expecting. I thought that climbing example was a good way of providing what you want. Its has the climbing game, plus modifying terrain plus setting up structures to make things easier for others. Infrastructure type stuff. You could combine climbing and ladders and stairs with building bridges. Ie creating faster means of travel through improvements.

I suppose we could use the ship example again.

So you have the sailing minigame, ie reading winds, putting sails in right place to get speed, rudder and so forth. Then you have all the maintaining of ships for damage and wear. You have people in the crows nest looking out for land. You can also learn the seas. Are there currents? Shoals? Reefs? Where are good coves for hiding? What monsters and animals live in what area? Icebergs?
So that is the life of sailors/captains/crew.
Then for just sailing you have stuff like building the ships, finding materials, power, vs cargo, vs speed.
You constantly try to build better ships. Try to find optimal sailing routes. How can I get there faster? What are good trade routes. What ports have what goods and need what goods?
Defending from attacks by monsters and pirates.

This is essentially a 3d real time version of Patrician. Patrician went all the way to V. So clearly people love these games and play them for a long time.
And this version is more complex and time consuming. You can do all the same stuff and more. And that is just sea travel.

Is that the kind of thing you mean? The time sink is provided because of better ships and materials always being gathered. Also you can find better routes if you can fight off monsters or maybe some place has winds that are only good for a bit and then blow you backwards or there are storms. So as you get faster ships you can time it so that you avoid the storms and cross winds and thus take a shorter and thus faster route.

You could play the entire game just being a boat captain on a trading vessel.

You could do the same with airships or land caravans.

Your question is sorta vague.

What does involving the player mean exactly? Is creativity problem solving? Art? Music?

#31 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3424

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:55 AM

For climbing its this:
You have ropes or chains or something flexible. You have the option of special shoes or gloves and harnesses. You also have pitons and a hammer. Based on your skill, modified by the lead climber of course, and the steepness of the face plus maybe its handhold score(which you can change by carving handholds) you have a small chance of falling every time you try to move. If you fall you drop down to your last piton just like real climbing.
As I said you can modify difficulty by carving handholds, this was something done by Native Americans at Mesa Verde. You can also leave your pitons and ropes up. You could build and leave a rope ladder. In theory, although it would take a long time, you could carve out steps or the inside of the mountain and whatever other things I have forgotten. I suppose technically this stuff is more crafting than mini-game but the piton and rope part is a mini-game.


Is workable I agree

You could play the entire game just being a boat captain on a trading vessel.


Absolutely - I made an analogy earlier to people playing WoW just to play with the Auction House.

What I am trying to do is steer the thread back onto track in seeking detailed responses. Admittedly I tend to takes aspects out of some people's posts but can you argue that in your posts that you are necessarily providing the detail in similar level to the 1st page including your intial post, which while talking in context of your game still bought valid material to the thread's discussion. A near infinite list of professions is easy enough to complete and moreover it is easy enough to create activities for each of them but in the context of trying to find thoughtful and meaningful posts I don't want what can be easily presented but rather imaginative, relevant, new ways of thinking "Out of the Box" ideas the restriction upon which is that there is no restriction other than it be in keeping with the theme of the thread. I am not trying to piss you off. Indeed you have made valid contributions to the thread. What I am not wanting though, is to lose focus with the thread and have it transform into some other animal, which our current conversation threatens to do.

#32 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:10 AM

I am not mad, mostly just confuzzled.

Are you not asking for different professions? Or a description of a specific one? A profession that no one has used before?

Would the teacher one be an example? That's not really a profession but an extra activity that affects all professions. Uncommon implementations of old professions?

I was thinking about getting some more sciencey stuff in games. Like using simplified organic chemistry to implement poisons and acids.

#33 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3424

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:19 AM

I was thinking about getting some more sciencey stuff in games. Like using simplified organic chemistry to implement poisons and acids.

This!

Now expand a profession out of it in such a way that you think a player might enjoy that profession for inordinately long periods of time inside an MMO where they might also raid, pvp etc. i.e. create a functional profession that is enticing to the player, useful in the larger aspect of an MMO (genre is irrelevant). Be creative. You might reference back to Jefffereytitans posts and my responses with regards one way that might be handled.

The teacher one as you go through the posts has probably evolved into a secondary i.e. common to all players, type of profession which to be honest was a result of your initial post.

#34 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:41 AM


I was thinking about getting some more sciencey stuff in games. Like using simplified organic chemistry to implement poisons and acids.

This!

Now expand a profession out of it in such a way that you think a player might enjoy that profession for inordinately long periods of time inside an MMO where they might also raid, pvp etc. i.e. create a functional profession that is enticing to the player, useful in the larger aspect of an MMO (genre is irrelevant). Be creative. You might reference back to Jefffereytitans posts and my responses with regards one way that might be handled.

The teacher one as you go through the posts has probably evolved into a secondary i.e. common to all players, type of profession which to be honest was a result of your initial post.


Okay thats a little more clear. You are more concerned about new mechanics rather than professions. An if I add this mechanic what possible things can it be used for.

The orgo chem thing is a subset of alchemy. Basically creatures have various body chemistry with stuff in their blood and cells and some chemicals can react. So you try to find a way to do that. Typical stuff like cyanide blocking cell respiration. So you could maybe test or sample blood and then try to find a chemical which can mess with their chemistry. Also some animals may have magic energy in their system and it may nullify poison so maybe you get some Otataral style dust to counteract that and let your poison work. Conversely something might be killed merely by applying the anti magic dust if its critical to life systems.

You may also make antidotes and such this way. Further you could create potions that improve health and growth and nutrition, say you were a breeder and wanted to raise new plants or animals.


I actually did design a really complex magic system with interactions with crafting and enchanting that was quite unique compared to what I've seen discussed or implemented. but I think I have taken up enough posts here. I want to see what other people have come up with.

#35 ImmoralAtheist   Members   -  Reputation: 118

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:54 AM

Using the above example as a guide I would be interested in other “crafting” professions can people think of that could work in a similar vein

Not exactly breeding based, but something different.
Have you played world of goo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW00TRa0_qo&feature=related
Imagine crafting a sword with goo balls. You are given a frame (walls enclosing a sword frame?). It will be put to certain tests (particulary tests for hardness and durability), and the results of these tests will determine the stats of the sword.

A crafter will have to gain profficiency crafting a type of item. The higher his level in crafting that type of item, the more/better goo balls he has at his disposal. Still it is up to the player to actually craft a good design, and it can't be copied, meaning every single sword will have to be handcrafted in this way.
The best designs will be available on the net, but there would still be minor variations. An unusually good result would sell for a lot. It's also possible to make the best designs quite difficult to accomplish, so that many might decide to use a suboptimal design which has a higher chance of actually producing something useful, so that they won't waste expensive raw materials.

For swords, I see general types of swords. sword, long sword, two-hander, dagger (can be many more). Each of these types will have their own frame. Additionaly they will be subdivided into group of materials used. This could be wood, iron, obsidian or steel swords. When creating an iron sword, you will be able to use your iron (in the form of goo balls) to craft your iron sword. The higher level the crafter is, the more goo balls can max be used (and pherhaps some other stuff).

Items with cheap materials (wood), could be given a frame with walls, acting as a very good support structure. Items with good materials could get a gradually poorer support structure. However, you also gain means to help your structure. It could be baloons, keeping your structure from falling, or goo balls (materials) which is meant for building your own support structure (probably much cheaper than the actual materials used in the sword).

A score could be given to the final product, and they could be named "fine iron sword", "dull iron sword" and so on. You could also give an iron sword, a slightly different graphical appearance based on it's quality.

I've thought of possible mini games for crafting before without coming up with something very good, but I believe this world of goo mixed with crafting has good potential.

#36 hughinn   Members   -  Reputation: 111

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:24 PM

One idea i had soem time ago (which i can't really do because i barely make text games right know), is to actually let the player create the scheme of a weapon/tool/spells/whatever, just like the breeding idea but generalized.

Just creating some basic variables like density of a metal and how long the weapon is, you allow the players to be the creative entity, and not having to go and create an creative AI someone mentioned, you let the player be what he wants, giving him the ability to truly craft something, and possibly stories too (dwark fortress is an example where you can create lots of things from the softcoded part of the game, and could give ideas).

Another idea is making the crafting system more player-oriented, instead of giving skills as the only way to be better, mix up some player interaction, so that, for example, hammering the sword at the right time sharpens it better and gives a better attack bonus.

EDIT: Don't really know how, but i found this pen and paper RPG where you can build spells and machines, it's pretty nice and maybe gives a way to implement what i said.

#37 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3424

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:34 PM

Imagine crafting a sword with goo balls. You are given a frame (walls enclosing a sword frame?). It will be put to certain tests (particulary tests for hardness and durability), and the results of these tests will determine the stats of the sword.


I haven't actually played goo balls - sounds interesting - By effectively collecting the right materials you could unlock certain amounts and type of goo balls that could be used in such a way. I do like the idea of a structured shape mapping system - creation professions would mix well with this - how this would translate to new design creation as in mapping an object into the game will probably be interesting.

Just creating some basic variables like density of a metal and how long the weapon is, you allow the players to be the creative entity, and not having to go and create an creative AI someone mentioned, you let the player be what he wants, giving him the ability to truly craft something, and possibly stories too (dwark fortress is an example where you can create lots of things from the softcoded part of the game, and could give ideas).

Another idea is making the crafting system more player-oriented, instead of giving skills as the only way to be better, mix up some player interaction, so that, for example, hammering the sword at the right time sharpens it better and gives a better attack bonus.


Yeah this sort of creation with recipe of action works well in a lot of ways. Time invested into the creation of a weapon for example should be meaningful without being a slide bar filling up process.

Using a combination of both your ideas into one would be a nice trick to do imo. Either of you have any ideas how you would do that in making of an Axe for example?

#38 hughinn   Members   -  Reputation: 111

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:43 PM

first, i forgot to put the link in the edit part.

http://www.semiautomagic.org/

Now, how to do an axe?

Possibly, you need some quantity of wood for the handle (if you feel like using wood, could be bones or metal) and metal for the cutting part.

You shape the axe in some way following the design, the handle in a separate step if it is a separate part (a wood handle for example), possibly by choosing when to heat the metal, when to hammer it, when to cool it with water, and carving the handle with a knife.

you have to sharpen it to some extent, you have to make sure it's not too sharpened or it would be easy to break in a battle, there's a lot of complexity in you can have, and of course you wouldn't pretend everyone that plays to be an expert crafter, so some things should be made easier.

What could you have? weight of the metal used affecting the movement and strength of the hit in a weapon, density making armors more or less protective, a clear difference between stabbing, slashing and blunt weapons. There's a lot of things that could be done.

#39 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3424

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:48 PM

Ah no - I think you missed my point about trying to merge your post with ImmoralAtheist's post about goo balls -- basically a way of implementing both ideas into one cohesive dynamic by which you could make an axe.

Thanks for the link will look through it now. And am an old fan of the D&D systems

#40 hughinn   Members   -  Reputation: 111

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:55 PM

ohh, a mix of world of goo and the idea of creating designs? that'd be nice, and doesn't seem like a difficult idea to implement, each "goo" could be a node in the Axe you said before, possibly with some sort of "design perfection" in a mix of time taken to build the weapon and correcteness in design to get a damage system ranking?




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