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John Carmack a racist?


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46 replies to this topic

#41 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2176

Posted 19 May 2012 - 03:48 AM

It is about different values. I value piece and stability more than the future vanishing (more precisely assimilating) of my race in the future that probably won't affect my life and my grandchildren's life directly, and that seems to be unavoidable.

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#42 cowsarenotevil   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2078

Posted 19 May 2012 - 03:57 AM

It is about different values. I value piece and stability more than the future vanishing (more precisely assimilating) of my race in the future that probably won't affect my life and my grandchildren's life directly, and that seems to be unavoidable.


Yes, that's exactly what I mean. For instance, I am opposed to any separating of people based on race in itself, not for any elaborate reasons but because my own values are against it, and this naturally extends to my being opposed to the preservation of any "racially pure" society for any reason. This is my value system, not a threat to anyone else's value system, different or otherwise, and definitely not an ad hominem attack against anyone who has a different value system.

And that's the last thing I'm saying about this, because while I (perhaps ill-advisedly) felt compelled to put my discomfort with racism on the record I don't have anything interesting to say about it.

For the record, I like what you've had to say, szecs.
-~-The Cow of Darkness-~-

#43 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3392

Posted 19 May 2012 - 06:50 AM

All you've done is attempt to damage the reputation of another in a public forum.

QFE - seeing this is just a thread about slandering someone's reputation (and only at all relevant because said person is well known in this community - for reasons outside of the scope of this thread), does anyone care if I close it?


+1 (for closure)

Generically the thread's title is too open and somewhat offensive most likely in its ambiguity esp given his wife's ethnicity irl.

-------------------------

As a straight out point very intelligent people can at times say very dumb things and vice versa.

But

I'd like to hear him speak more to the topic, if for no other reason than that I've considered applying to work at id and wouldn't want to end up in an environment where racism is acceptable.


Any implication of rampant racism or even subtle racism would most likely have spilled out long ago esp. in a field where everyone has a brain and transportable skills that allows them to go elsewhere. Id Software is just one part of the larger Zenimax organisation so your concern being something along the lines of id has gone rogue or the greater company is also tainted just doesn't really sit valid with me as an argument for you propose that he address your concerns. Moreover these forums aren't really the place to determine whether id has a tainted environment in any definitive way.


While some reasonable points are made in this thread I question whether its worth to the social dynamic of the lounge justifies it.

Edited by Stormynature, 19 May 2012 - 06:50 AM.


#44 A Brain in a Vat   Members   -  Reputation: 313

Posted 19 May 2012 - 08:32 AM

All you've done is attempt to damage the reputation of another in a public forum.

QFE - seeing this is just a thread about slandering someone's reputation (and only at all relevant because said person is well known in this community - for reasons outside of the scope of this thread), does anyone care if I close it?


Where's the slander? I didn't assert anything that's false. I did ask a question -- a question that I think is valid given his statements and his reluctance to answer the question, even when posting in this very thread. He has time to say he doesn't "think very highly

of people that go out of their way to take grievous offense in other people’s names." He has time to say he's tempted to make a "thoughtful position statement" but doesn't want to start an argument since it wouldn't be "orthodox political correctness."


The one thing he hasn't done is say he disagrees with Derbyshire on those particular points, or even to say "I'm not a racist." Of course he doesn't *have* to say that. I wish he would though. I've looked up to Carmack for a long time and wouldn't slander him.



As to whether you should close this thread, I don't quite understand why you would but it's obviously not up to me. The conversation has been civil. Carmack has poked his head in, so it's not like we're talking about someone behind his back and without giving him a chance to respond and set the record straight. There have been threads about people outside of gamedev being racist which weren't closed. There have been threads about games being racist or sexist. These weren't closed.



I think it's relevant for more than just because he's "well known in this community." It might be relevant to black members of this community who might want to know whether applying at id may not be a good idea. It might be relevant to black people already working at id, for that matter.



Please don't to paint this as a blind smear campaign (if it can be called a campaign). I haven't uttered one false statement, I was simply surprised by some of his statements and have asked a question publicly about them. He's chosen not to answer the question.



#45 A Brain in a Vat   Members   -  Reputation: 313

Posted 19 May 2012 - 08:39 AM

Generically the thread's title is too open and somewhat offensive most likely in its ambiguity esp given his wife's ethnicity irl.
....
As a straight out point very intelligent people can at times say very dumb things and vice versa.


You've just provided an example of an (I assume) intelligent person saying a very dumb thing. What does his wife's ethnicity have to do with it? She's asian, how's that relevant? If she was black it still wouldn't settle the question of racism. This isn't even the simple-minded "I have a black friend!" response to racism, it's the "I have an asian friend, so obviously I don't think blacks are inferior!" response?

Id Software is just one part of the larger Zenimax organisation...


id does its own hiring, and I assume Carmack has lots of say in that hiring if he chooses to be involved. Irrelevant.


Edited by A Brain in a Vat, 19 May 2012 - 08:40 AM.


#46 A Brain in a Vat   Members   -  Reputation: 313

Posted 19 May 2012 - 08:48 AM

The only way his wife might be relevant is that she's founder and CEO of "Fountainhead Entertainment", and she's supposedly an admirer of Ayn Rand. Carmack supposedly is as well. The reason that's relevant is that Ayn Rand, while she was an unabashed sexist, does decry racism: http://www.freedomke...m/ar-racism.htm

I'd suggest to Carmack that Ayn Rand would consider John Derbyshire's small-minded views "most crudely primitive".

Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man's genetic lineage -- the notion that a man's intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

Racism claims that the content of a man's mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content) is inherited; that a man's convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical forces beyond his control. This is the caveman's version of the doctrine of innate ideas -- or of inherited knowledge -- which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science. Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes. It is a barnyard or stock-farm version of collectivism, appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of anmials, but not between animals and men.


Edited by A Brain in a Vat, 19 May 2012 - 08:49 AM.


#47 Moritz P.G. Katz   Members   -  Reputation: 1053

Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:29 AM

Just give it a rest. This is getting ridiculous and I too am beginning to feel very embarrassed.
Personally, I'd hate to see a thread like this pondering my own philosophical views.

Also, I'd refrain from answering to your nasty "Are you a racist?" questions too - because that would just give your claims substance.

Mods, please close this thread before it gets even more out of hand.

Edited by Moritz P.G. Katz, 19 May 2012 - 09:33 AM.

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