Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

We're offering banner ads on our site from just $5!

1. Details HERE. 2. GDNet+ Subscriptions HERE. 3. Ad upload HERE.


Visual Studio 11 Express


Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
104 replies to this topic

#61 mdwh   Members   -  Reputation: 901

Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:47 AM

Ars has an interesting write up on this: http://arstechnica.c...d-on-windows-8/ - making good points about the "desktop" still being of use. Also makes an interesting point about people wanting to learn programming - since command line apps are also out on Express, it means writing your first Hello World isn't an option (though to be fair, one could argue that if Metro is easy enough to use, maybe newbies could jump straight into writing simple graphical apps - but I don't know if that will be the case).

They also make the point that it's not just the IDE that is out - there won't be a compiler in the Windows 8 SDK at all, so even running from command line, or using alternative IDEs with the VC compiler, is out.

(ETA: I love how every one of the MS blog posts gets 4 or 5 stars, but the one with the news has 1 star...]


So it seems that people are correct to worry that MS wants to move people away from the windowed UI (both a worry in that some people don't want to have to always run everything full screen; and that the new Metro means MS have control over the software distribution). We can hope that enough developers won't like it that it'll have the same effect as .Net, but the fears are still valid, and not FUD or scaremongering.

I think it's reasonable to worry to some extent about how easily you're going to be able to write native executables in standard C++ to Windows in the future -- if that's something you care about. But who knows WinRT might be a gigantic failure. I mean .Net was successful and never really effected my ability to do regular Windows programming or even to get regular windows programming jobs.

True Posted Image


(Unless the new WinRT can still create windowed apps, something I'm still not clear on.)

Don't think you can. But Antheus has it right above ... WinRT is like the kernel and Metro is the UI. If WInRT is successful and becomes the future of Microsoft etc., they'll probably implement another UI that is more like desktop windows but runs on top of RT.

We can hope. But one can understand the confusion - if Win32 is already being branded as deprecated, when there's no sign of any such alternative UI for WinRT, and it's unclear how standard C++ can be used with WinRT.

But then, maybe we're reading too much into it - was .Net introduced as replacing Win32?

Edited by mdwh, 25 May 2012 - 07:59 AM.

http://erebusrpg.sourceforge.net/ - Erebus, Open Source RPG for Windows/Linux/Android
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.harman/conquests.html - Conquests, Open Source Civ-like Game for Windows/Linux

Sponsor:

#62 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:13 AM

Ars has an interesting write up on this: http://arstechnica.c...d-on-windows-8/ - making good points about the "desktop" still being of use. Also makes an interesting point about people wanting to learn programming - since command line apps are also out on Express, it means writing your first Hello World isn't an option (though to be fair, one could argue that if Metro is easy enough to use, maybe newbies could jump straight into writing simple graphical apps - but I don't know if that will be the case).


That's probably the worst part is that if you want to just like practice coding or something you have to wrap everything in a metro app. On the plus side it really isn't that hard to make a hello world graphical app (somebody posted a video of making a graphical hello world in the current ide in like a minute, and I think metro is about the same in VS).

Still sucks though. At least they have Dreamspark still, because 90% of my student projects were in some way command line based.

#63 jwezorek   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1973

Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:27 AM

was .Net introduced as replacing Win32?

No, not officially, but then Microsoft corporate announcements and so forth don't ever mention the name "Win32" so it's hard to say. The thing was .Net was always on top of Win32 whereas WinRT isn't. What I remember was that with each new and better release of .Net you'd hear these rumors about how the forthcoming release wasn't going to be on top of Win32 anymore.

Edited by jwezorek, 25 May 2012 - 10:39 AM.


#64 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 25 May 2012 - 02:28 PM

Ars has an interesting write up on this: http://arstechnica.c...d-on-windows-8/


So after reading the article and the entire comment thread it seems like the largest risk is generally for hobby developers or professionals without MSDN licenses. Being the latter I share that concern.

However, a lot of people are taking for granted that desktop applications shouldn't be the norm anymore in Windows 8. As painful as it will be moving to a new paradigm, it is a paradigm that will net in greater access for content creators to consumers, and more satisfied consumers because of a standardized experience across applications.

That new paradigm is actually cheaper to develop for on the new platform than the old paradigm is to develop for on the old platform in a lot of respects.

I think time would be better spent arguing for support of necessary features in WinRT rather than arguing for further support of desktop apps. WinRT is imo a step in the right direction despite some missteps that are currently making that step seem undesirable.

ALL THAT SAID, is there a list somewhere of all the API stuff you won't have access to anymore? I hear a lot of people talking about things they can't do anymore (more places than just here), but by and large it amounts to heresay or very general reasons. Is there any specific list of API functionality that is no longer there? This is a serious question I don't know the answer to, not an argumentative point.

#65 Krohm   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3245

Posted 27 May 2012 - 11:56 PM

I'm still thinking at this.
I've had a quite positive experience with Code::Blocks recently. Perhaps I might try converting everything to it a day. In the meanwhile, I am worried.
C++ is possibly in the worst situation possible. After all, C++ is used because it is "native", now that "native" is bad, I wonder why to keep C++ in the first place. I'd drop it completely (intending no VC++ Express at all) rather than giving it a mutilated IDE.

This thing makes no sense at all.

#66 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:21 AM

I'm still thinking at this.
I've had a quite positive experience with Code::Blocks recently. Perhaps I might try converting everything to it a day. In the meanwhile, I am worried.
C++ is possibly in the worst situation possible. After all, C++ is used because it is "native", now that "native" is bad, I wonder why to keep C++ in the first place. I'd drop it completely (intending no VC++ Express at all) rather than giving it a mutilated IDE.


C++ is still native. It just doesn't have access to the same API as it did before if you develop a metro app.

Still curious if anyone knows more specifically how different WinRT is vs the win Api we have now :-?

#67 Krohm   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3245

Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:26 AM

Yes but without the native OS API that would be quite a different thing.
And it was my understanding there's no IF. We do metro apps. Or Pro stuff.
I guess I missed a few details along the thread?

#68 2DExtremeOwner   Members   -  Reputation: 142

Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:39 AM

I don't see the problem here. Why?

1) WinRT is new, its what's next, you should learn it or experience it, if you care about Windows 8 or Microsoft products. Just as you should have with .Net

2) Programmers work with technology, technology is always moving/advancing/changing. Aren't you used to this already? Learning is part of the job, right?

3) If you program, you probably aren't in charge. You have been doing what you are told for how long now? If you are told to use JavaScript, BASIC, Fortran or the next uberawesomestScripting language, you either do it or find another job.

4) If you don't like it, there is always something else, other tools and other platforms. Mac, iOS, Android, Linux, Browsers, etc...

5) You can complain, it won't do anything, it never has and it never will. Things change, move along or be left out.

Isn't it time for a change already?

#69 mdwh   Members   -  Reputation: 901

Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:25 AM

However, a lot of people are taking for granted that desktop applications shouldn't be the norm anymore in Windows 8. As painful as it will be moving to a new paradigm, it is a paradigm that will net in greater access for content creators to consumers, and more satisfied consumers because of a standardized experience across applications.

Well indeed, this is what people are criticising - and others are saying is just scaremongering in that the windowed mode isn't going away.

"shouldn't be the norm" is different from "shouldn't exist at all". In a few years' time, will Office and Visual Studio only be able to run as full screen applications?

As for the general argument - well the flip side is that it's better to have UIs optimised for different purposes. Put it another way, would running Windows 7 on a 4" phone be a good idea, because it's a standardised experience across platforms? Presumably not Posted Image Should we throw away the mouse and keyboard and only use touchscreen, so it's a standardised experience? Yet we know MS don't plan that for Windows 8.

They could still have the Metro look-and-feel, even with allowing a more flexible windowing system. I mean, Metro will allowed a Tiled window manager, with two applications viewable side by side - like Windows 1.0, and also similar to the old Amiga "screens" you could pull down. Hell, maybe that's what will happen - say by Windows 9, they'll add in full windowing support for Metro, so that things go full circle, and then the old UI can be dropped Posted Image

I think time would be better spent arguing for support of necessary features in WinRT rather than arguing for further support of desktop apps. WinRT is imo a step in the right direction despite some missteps that are currently making that step seem undesirable.

Then I'll argue for support of creating non-full screen apps in WinRT Posted Image

I don't see the problem here. Why?

1) WinRT is new, its what's next, you should learn it or experience it, if you care about Windows 8 or Microsoft products. Just as you should have with .Net

2) Programmers work with technology, technology is always moving/advancing/changing. Aren't you used to this already? Learning is part of the job, right?

It's that it's what's next is why people are worried. No one is complaining about having to learn something new - they're complaining about what the new thing is.

It isn't that WinRT is new; it's that WinRT means only Metro, which means only full screen phablet apps. Phones and tablets are great, but not everyone is writing software only for them. When I tried out the Windows 8 preview, I was excited - the idea of having the same core OS, with UIs optimised for different devices, is a brilliant one. But people telling me I should be running full-screen all the time, and the "desktop" should be lost? I'm not so sure...

Also see the ars article I linked - it means that MS no longer support free software development, and the Metro future is one completely locked down (like Apple IOS) and controlled by MS.

4) If you don't like it, there is always something else, other tools and other platforms. Mac, iOS, Android, Linux, Browsers, etc...

Yes some people have said they'll use Mac OS or Linux - I think that counts as part of the criticism of Windows 8!

5) You can complain, it won't do anything, it never has and it never will. Things change, move along or be left out.

By that logic, no one should complain about anything.

Isn't it time for a change already?

"We need something new, this is new, therefore we should do this".

It's interesting that that argument is so often used when it comes to discussing UIs. Why do we have to change back to the windowing UI capability of Windows 1.0?

Edited by mdwh, 28 May 2012 - 07:29 AM.

http://erebusrpg.sourceforge.net/ - Erebus, Open Source RPG for Windows/Linux/Android
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.harman/conquests.html - Conquests, Open Source Civ-like Game for Windows/Linux

#70 Antheus   Members   -  Reputation: 2397

Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:59 AM

Oh, btw - metro apps can only be distributed over Microsoft app store.

So once you write an app, there are two choices:
- request a fixed number of tokens for users (a token for John, one for Jane), so that they will be able to install your app
- submit app to the store, wait for review, etc...


This isn't new, it's how Apple ecosystem works.

What iOS/OSX still offer is ability to develop non-iOS/non-appstore applications considerably cheaper ($99 license covers everything), then you're free to distribute anything you want, iOS or desktop.

Same thing for Windows will now cost $600, plus whatever the license may cost to publish the application (cost of certificate).

Edited by Antheus, 28 May 2012 - 09:04 AM.


#71 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:45 AM

Well indeed, this is what people are criticising - and others are saying is just scaremongering in that the windowed mode isn't going away.

"shouldn't be the norm" is different from "shouldn't exist at all". In a few years' time, will Office and Visual Studio only be able to run as full screen applications?

As for the general argument - well the flip side is that it's better to have UIs optimised for different purposes. Put it another way, would running Windows 7 on a 4" phone be a good idea, because it's a standardised experience across platforms? Presumably not Posted Image Should we throw away the mouse and keyboard and only use touchscreen, so it's a standardised experience? Yet we know MS don't plan that for Windows 8.

They could still have the Metro look-and-feel, even with allowing a more flexible windowing system. I mean, Metro will allowed a Tiled window manager, with two applications viewable side by side - like Windows 1.0, and also similar to the old Amiga "screens" you could pull down. Hell, maybe that's what will happen - say by Windows 9, they'll add in full windowing support for Metro, so that things go full circle, and then the old UI can be dropped Posted Image

It would be nice if they supported desktop apps using only specific parts of the API in the market, but do you really need more than 2 applications per monitor? I think the most apps I ever have viewable on my 2 monitors is 3, maybe 4. After that it gets too cluttered imo.

Then I'll argue for support of creating non-full screen apps in WinRT Posted Image

WinRT supports this. WinRT != Metro.

Yes but without the native OS API that would be quite a different thing.

WinRT is the new native OS API. Windows 8 desktop applications should still use WinRT despite having the winAPI available. There are pieces of WinRT that are only available to metro/desktop, but WinRT is still native.

And it was my understanding there's no IF. We do metro apps. Or Pro stuff.
I guess I missed a few details along the thread?

Why can't a Metro app be professional?

#72 Antheus   Members   -  Reputation: 2397

Posted 28 May 2012 - 09:18 AM

but do you really need more than 2 applications per monitor


Yes. About 15.

Windows 8 demo comes with about 25 apps on default install, set to always run.

After that it gets too cluttered imo.


I can always rearrange them, minimize them, close them. It's up to me.

my 2 monitors


Why are you using 2 monitors? One is enough for 83% of users. Disconnect one right now, you don't need it. Statistics also show that average resolution is 1024x768. And that average screen size is 13".

Switch to that right now - it's good enough for everyone, so it's good enough for you.

---

Here's another example: Try to trouble shoot issue and guide some user through a process
- skype (preferably at the side), or any of the alternatives, not everyone uses Skype
- checklist (usually a web app, possibly contains scanned TIFs and PDFs to be downloaded)
- IDE
- email
- time tracker (for billing)
- ticket tracker (Mylin or similar)
- CRM (to know about the customer in question)

Yes, it's possible to do this one a single screen. But it would be a complete nightmare. And this is a very trivial a routine task. It's not even creative, just regular customer support, which is about as low as you can get on complexity scale.

Solution under Metro will be to build all of these into a single-screen app. And it will be done, billed as latest greatest in productivity. Except that due to being unified under a single vendor with single release cycle, it will remain vastly inferior to independent solutions.

Edited by Antheus, 28 May 2012 - 09:36 AM.


#73 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 28 May 2012 - 09:32 AM

Yes. About 15.

Windows 8 demo comes with about 25 apps on default install, set to always run.

I can always rearrange them, minimize them, close them. It's up to me.

well then you aren't really running 15 apps on your two monitors. You're running a couple apps on your monitors with a couple running in the background.

my 2 monitors

Why are you using 2 monitors?

Because I'm not 83% of users?

#74 Antheus   Members   -  Reputation: 2397

Posted 28 May 2012 - 09:53 AM

well then you aren't really running 15 apps on your two monitors. You're running a couple apps on your monitors with a couple running in the background.


No, they're applications. Word, Eclipse, Visual Studio, Firefox, ...

I just choose to rearrange their visual parts to best fit my current needs.

Because I'm not 83% of users?


Doesn't it then make sense that complaints over "metro being useless" come from the other 17% as well? Or 50%? Or 80%? Or perhaps just 1%.

And is it possible that it's not about "not understanding the new paradigm" it's about actually having needs which Metro either doesn't meet or actively hinders?

#75 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 28 May 2012 - 10:34 AM


well then you aren't really running 15 apps on your two monitors. You're running a couple apps on your monitors with a couple running in the background.


No, they're applications. Word, Eclipse, Visual Studio, Firefox, ...

I just choose to rearrange their visual parts to best fit my current needs.

So you run Word, Eclipse, Visual Studio, and Firefox on a single monitor with all of them being visible at a single time? How do you even get useful information out of VS when it's being run on a quarter of a monitor? You get to look at the solution explorer and 100 characters of code?

Doesn't it then make sense that complaints over "metro being useless" come from the other 17% as well? Or 50%? Or 80%? Or perhaps just 1%.

Metro has better support for multiple monitors than standard windows starting with the June update to the release preview. I don't understand why Metro is useless for multiple monitors when it has more functionality with multiple monitors than Windows 7.

And is it possible that it's not about "not understanding the new paradigm" it's about actually having needs which Metro either doesn't meet or actively hinders?

This is why I asked:

ALL THAT SAID, is there a list somewhere of all the API stuff you won't have access to anymore? I hear a lot of people talking about things they can't do anymore (more places than just here), but by and large it amounts to heresay or very general reasons. Is there any specific list of API functionality that is no longer there? This is a serious question I don't know the answer to, not an argumentative point.

I want specifics about what you will no longer be able to do. I am legitimately curious. A lot of people, like you, keep saying, "I have needs that Metro doesn't meet," but very few of them are actually saying what those needs are, and at least half of them are 'needs' that are already fully supported by metro applications.

#76 Antheus   Members   -  Reputation: 2397

Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:00 AM

I want specifics about what you will no longer be able to do. I am legitimately curious.


Did you run it yet?

There's an iso, it installs flawlessly into a virtual machine.

How long did it take until either by choice or due to limitations Metro fell back on desktop?

very few of them are actually saying what those needs are


I gave a use case above.

Once you use metro, try to reproduce it without falling back to desktop and standalone applications. After all, Win8 comes with fantastic fully integrated skype and email client, so some of it should work out of box.

Edited by Antheus, 28 May 2012 - 11:02 AM.


#77 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:04 PM

I want specifics about what you will no longer be able to do. I am legitimately curious.


Did you run it yet?

So no specifics then?

I gave a use case above.

- Skype - run in the background, open when necessary
- Email - run in background, open when necessary
- IDE - run on main screen
- Run these on second or third screen switching between them as necessary just like you would do right now.
* time tracker
* ticket tracker
* CRM
* Checklist

#78 Antheus   Members   -  Reputation: 2397

Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:39 PM

So no specifics then?


Install Windows 8 first.

- Skype - run in the background, open when necessary
- Email - run in background, open when necessary
- IDE - run on main screen
- Run these on second or third screen switching between them as necessary just like you would do right now.
* time tracker
* ticket tracker
* CRM
* Checklist


OK.

How do you implement Eclipse (or any other IDE) in Metro? Better yet, who will do it, considering Java isn't supported. Or, if not a fan of Eclipse, use Visual Studio.
How do I add time tracker, which is a sidebar widget to always show up.
I cannot put Skype in the background, since I need to watch it to see the user feedback and/or screen cap they are providing.
Email contains various details, passwords and other correspondence related to the problem, I need to have access to it, switching left and right isn't possible.
Checklist is a list that you follow, step-by-step, it needs to be present next to everything else. Current system is browser-based.
CRM is another list which needs to be present, it contains cross-references of the person I'm dealing with, along with their account information, runs in second browser window.


Once you install and run Windows 8, you'll see why the above doesn't work. Metro is the square things on the startup. Desktop is the thing with taskbar at bottom. Arguments here are about why pushing Metro as the only thing doesn't come even close to a replacement for desktop.

And above doesn't require multiple screens, it works, if need be, on a single HD laptop screen. Which is kinda important, if doing on-site work.



If Windows 8 works for you, fine. This isn't about theoretical doability - we could as well be using paper mail - it's about how unusable new interface is for tasks and applications which are the norm.

#79 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 28 May 2012 - 01:12 PM

And above doesn't require multiple screens, it works, if need be, on a single HD laptop screen. Which is kinda important, if doing on-site work.

How do you do that all on a single HD laptop screen with windows 7? You edit code in an IDE, while watching a skype screencap/share, while a time tracker widget takes up part of your screen, while having your CRM open somewhere on your screen, while having your ticket tracker somewhere on your screen, and a checklist somewhere also. That is quite honestly fud. There is no way you'd have that much stuff open on a laptop screen and actually have any of it be useful; period.

If you are minimizing, maximizing, resizing, and refocussing windows you can do all that with metro just fine. You can have metro running in one window and desktop in another. You can run metro and desktop in the same window simultaneously. You can switch between metro and desktop practically instantly on a single monitor if you don't want them sharing space.

Arguments here are about why pushing Metro as the only thing doesn't come even close to a replacement for desktop.

Wat? There's a tremendous difference between pushing something as the primary thing and pushing something as the only thing.

If Windows 8 works for you, fine. This isn't about theoretical doability - we could as well be using paper mail - it's about how unusable new interface is for tasks and applications which are the norm.

At what point did what you describe become the norm?

#80 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7555

Posted 28 May 2012 - 01:13 PM

Erm... wtf are you all going on about in this thread?

People seem to be doing the wonderful straw man of 'X does not fit Y therefore Y is useless'.

Metro is just a way of arranging data.
Win32/'classic' desktop is just a way of arranging data.

For some apps the former will work best, for some apps the latter.
We are not in an 'either or' situation on the desktop, you can have both types of applications installed and running.

The arguements against Metro as being 'not suitable for IDE development' are utter rubbish because this is not what Metro is there for.
Metro is for a class of apps which are best served by being full screen run only one at a time type apps; now many apps could fit into both frames, I could see Word 2013 being released in both Metro and 'classic' formats and for some people the Metro fullscreen version will be just fine as they only want to work on one document at a time.

Windows 8 also deals with a multi-screen setup fine.
The Metro Start Screen defaults to your primary monitor, the secondary one shows the rest of the desktop.
About the only annoying thing right now (well, in the preview version anyway) is that hitting start kills the whole primary monitor - it would be nice if you could set it to open on one side by default much like how you can drag an app to the side of the primary monitor and have it sit there while you use a standard desktop app on the rest.




Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.



PARTNERS