I am looking to make a game very similar to what Diablo 2 was with updated graphics and some new unique features. I am looking at making a kickstarter for the project once I get the details rolled out and then hiring the required people to work on the project. I've tried creating a previous game before kickstarter ever existed and found it virtually impossible to find enough free help for such an undertaking. Now with kickstarter being pretty big I decided to make another go at it.
So I know I need:
Programmers
Graphic artist/animators
Game Engine License
Server Farm for updates?
Sound/FX
Ultimately I'm trying to figure what my goal for kickstarter should be and get some suggestions from the community perhaps as far as game engine for a Diablo 2 type game. Keep in mind I do want to make the game be able to match up with current generation games in terms of graphics and want to go with gritty dark realistic graphics. Any help would be appreciated in getting started.
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A little help on what I need for my project
Started by Falcon68, Jul 12 2012 09:15 AM
30 replies to this topic
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#2 Moderators - Reputation: 4844
Posted 12 July 2012 - 09:43 AM
This is a business question, not a project management question. Moving to the appropriate forum.
If you're going to Kickstarter, you need a business plan, and a GDD/TDD for your initial game.
If you're going to Kickstarter, you need a business plan, and a GDD/TDD for your initial game.
Edited by Tom Sloper, 12 July 2012 - 09:46 AM.
-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.
#3 Members - Reputation: 108
Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:19 AM
Business plan is no problem I am a CAPM so that is going to be my ultimate role in the project. But I have a large list of features and details of game mechanics already written out which I guess is a good start on a GDD.
The biggest challenges I am having as far as getting started are:
1.What roles will I need to fill for my project?
2. Considering the roles I need to fill and the requirements of some sort of online media server to allow updates to the game client what kind of budget should I shoot for in kickstarter?
3. Find issues or problems I may be overseeing.
Just more of an FYI... I am doing this project for a few reasons.
1. I want to get more experience as a Video Game Producer as I would either like to own my own game company or would love to work as a game producer for another company.
2. I want to make a great game that people flock to. This is not about profit and may consider more of a break even business model.
The biggest challenges I am having as far as getting started are:
1.What roles will I need to fill for my project?
2. Considering the roles I need to fill and the requirements of some sort of online media server to allow updates to the game client what kind of budget should I shoot for in kickstarter?
3. Find issues or problems I may be overseeing.
Just more of an FYI... I am doing this project for a few reasons.
1. I want to get more experience as a Video Game Producer as I would either like to own my own game company or would love to work as a game producer for another company.
2. I want to make a great game that people flock to. This is not about profit and may consider more of a break even business model.
#4 Members - Reputation: 523
Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:34 AM
If I was in your shoes as a producer in the making I would do this as following:
- Flesh out your idea in a proper GDD, at least enough to get people motivated to work with you.
- Recruit at least one programmer and one artist to start with, at the start you can do most of the design yourself most likely. It is important to make a deal with these people, they might be willing to help you, but it has to be rewarding in the end (or at least have something in it for them on the horizon). I would personally say a share of the profits or something should there be something. This will be your core team!
- With the 3 of you, create a prototype of the game, people will be much more eager to back you if they see you can actually do something. Without this? Forget it.
During this prototyping stage you will encounter problems that you will need to find the answers to. Your programmer might (and should) be able to sort out what you need for your online media server and can search for the proper solution for it and probably give you an estimate of the costs. It's all research. What do you want? What will I need for it to work and where do I get it. Of course, that specific question can also be asked on the forum.
Once you encountered most of your problems, know how to fix them and you got your prototype working, you can create a kickstarter project explaining what you want, how you want to achieve this so people know where your money goes to. Once you got your kickstarter up and running, people will probably be more interested in your project for joining your team as you already proven that you are going somewhere!
Now this is not a recipe for success, obviously. But I think for people that don't have a name in the business and want to make a game, it will be a hard ride unless you really have something standing out or get publicity of some kind.
Nevertheless, I wish you all the luck in the world and hope you achieve what you are aiming for
- Flesh out your idea in a proper GDD, at least enough to get people motivated to work with you.
- Recruit at least one programmer and one artist to start with, at the start you can do most of the design yourself most likely. It is important to make a deal with these people, they might be willing to help you, but it has to be rewarding in the end (or at least have something in it for them on the horizon). I would personally say a share of the profits or something should there be something. This will be your core team!
- With the 3 of you, create a prototype of the game, people will be much more eager to back you if they see you can actually do something. Without this? Forget it.
During this prototyping stage you will encounter problems that you will need to find the answers to. Your programmer might (and should) be able to sort out what you need for your online media server and can search for the proper solution for it and probably give you an estimate of the costs. It's all research. What do you want? What will I need for it to work and where do I get it. Of course, that specific question can also be asked on the forum.
Once you encountered most of your problems, know how to fix them and you got your prototype working, you can create a kickstarter project explaining what you want, how you want to achieve this so people know where your money goes to. Once you got your kickstarter up and running, people will probably be more interested in your project for joining your team as you already proven that you are going somewhere!
Now this is not a recipe for success, obviously. But I think for people that don't have a name in the business and want to make a game, it will be a hard ride unless you really have something standing out or get publicity of some kind.
Nevertheless, I wish you all the luck in the world and hope you achieve what you are aiming for
#5 Members - Reputation: 108
Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:58 AM
Thanks! Loving the suggestions and help so far. One thing I am also struggling with is some of my ideas are very complex and unique and I feel putting them on the kickstarter may bring in alot of attention but I am also concerned that the idea could be stolen. What would be the best course of action I can take to prevent this?
To help give a basic idea... the game will be largely community driven with community content being uploaded to the media server frequently then the content will build pieces of the game world randomly where players can rate the content.
So the main building elements i believe I need are:
1. A client that can work with the uploaded elements on the media server to generate the content for the player
2. A robust editor for player use
I really generalized the idea here... but I think you get the idea.
To help give a basic idea... the game will be largely community driven with community content being uploaded to the media server frequently then the content will build pieces of the game world randomly where players can rate the content.
So the main building elements i believe I need are:
1. A client that can work with the uploaded elements on the media server to generate the content for the player
2. A robust editor for player use
I really generalized the idea here... but I think you get the idea.
#6 Members - Reputation: 523
Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:15 PM
I am not sure what the best course of action would be for your idea to be safe from being stolen. I guess that once your idea is up at kickstarter it will probably have some kind of timestamp or something that could proof "Hey, we had this idea first! See!" but then again.. I don't think you can prevent ideas from being stolen by others. If that would be the case, people could prevent people from using a double jump mechanic or something. I'm sure other can give you more insight in this though.
Depending on the frequency of updates you want to send and the frequency you want the game to be updated, it's not very hard to achieve this. If you want content to be updated once every 12/24 hour, you can get away with simply having a database of some sorts where you store the relevant data, and alter when needed (or add).
There are more factors involved obviously that depends on your aims that might or might not make this suitable, but once you got everything laid out, what it is exactly what you need, you can (or your programmer) come up with a system that works.
Perhaps, given enough information you could ask the question here on the forum! I'm sure people will know something
Depending on the frequency of updates you want to send and the frequency you want the game to be updated, it's not very hard to achieve this. If you want content to be updated once every 12/24 hour, you can get away with simply having a database of some sorts where you store the relevant data, and alter when needed (or add).
There are more factors involved obviously that depends on your aims that might or might not make this suitable, but once you got everything laid out, what it is exactly what you need, you can (or your programmer) come up with a system that works.
Perhaps, given enough information you could ask the question here on the forum! I'm sure people will know something
#7 Moderators - Reputation: 4844
Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:06 PM
a. Business plan is no problem I am a CAPM so that is going to be my ultimate role in the project.
The biggest challenges I am having as far as getting started are:
1.What roles will I need to fill for my project?
2. Considering the roles I need to fill and the requirements of some sort of online media server to allow updates to the game client what kind of budget should I shoot for in kickstarter?
3. Find issues or problems I may be overseeing.
b. I am also concerned that the idea could be stolen. What would be the best course of action I can take to prevent this?
a. Your questions 1 and 2 are your "known unknowns." Start writing your business plan now, and start researching your known unknowns by a better means than asking for strangers on the internet to write a book for you. There are lots of articles, postmortems, and books already out there. You're looking for quick easy answers. That way lies danger.
Your question 3 is about the "unknown unknowns." Start writing your business plan, and while researching your known unknowns, you will learn about some unknown unknowns, and can start including those in your business plan. You will never be able to identify all the unknown unknowns. Something will pop up -- it always does.
b. The idea cannot be protected. But you should register your copyright, and require an NDA from those to whom you show the most significant secret ingredients of your recipe.
-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.
#8 Members - Reputation: 108
Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:36 PM
a. Business plan is no problem I am a CAPM so that is going to be my ultimate role in the project.
The biggest challenges I am having as far as getting started are:
1.What roles will I need to fill for my project?
2. Considering the roles I need to fill and the requirements of some sort of online media server to allow updates to the game client what kind of budget should I shoot for in kickstarter?
3. Find issues or problems I may be overseeing.
b. I am also concerned that the idea could be stolen. What would be the best course of action I can take to prevent this?
a. Your questions 1 and 2 are your "known unknowns." Start writing your business plan now, and start researching your known unknowns by a better means than asking for strangers on the internet to write a book for you. There are lots of articles, postmortems, and books already out there. You're looking for quick easy answers. That way lies danger.
Your question 3 is about the "unknown unknowns." Start writing your business plan, and while researching your known unknowns, you will learn about some unknown unknowns, and can start including those in your business plan. You will never be able to identify all the unknown unknowns. Something will pop up -- it always does.
b. The idea cannot be protected. But you should register your copyright, and require an NDA from those to whom you show the most significant secret ingredients of your recipe.
a. Ya I guess I was hoping for a general round about total ie. On average creating a diablo type game with modern graphics you'd be looking at around 1.5 million dollars etc. But I do understand what you are saying and to get a more accurate idea I should probably follow your suggestion. The project is basically dead if I never get the funding is my issue... so I hate to go through so much just to not get the funding but at the same time I probably would have a better chance of reaching my funding goal if I get some sort of prototype working.
b. I'm definetly going to do this. Thanks.
#9 Moderators - Reputation: 4844
Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:23 PM
Ya I guess I was hoping for a general round about total ie. On average creating a diablo type game with modern graphics you'd be looking at around 1.5 million dollars etc.
Okay, then. $10-20 million.
Edited by Tom Sloper, 12 July 2012 - 02:23 PM.
-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.
#10 Members - Reputation: 108
Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:22 PM
ok ouch. Considering most huge MMOs don't pass the 10 million mark i'd say you may be overshooting the scale but perhaps that was on purpose to prove a point. The highest kickstarter i've seen for a game reached 3.33 million so anything over that the chance of getting funding seems slim to none. Perhaps I can find some data on the cost to make diablo 3 to try and get a rough estimate.
#11 Members - Reputation: 136
Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:54 PM
I have a unique appreciation for Kickstarter. It allows projects to derive funding solely from a potential consumer market. My only problem with Kickstarter is that it's really only feasible for securing a part of your funding that can aid you in developing a game model. It's possible to make a game with a few million. I've even seen great games come out of the indie spaces that were almost entirely collaborated between people on the internet, and of whom many had zero funding, or were unlikely to be compensated.
The kind of project you're talking about is... larger than large. Should you find funding to complete a game model you can use that to show investors you're capable of producing an end product. Investors will likely want their money back. Diablo 2, and 3 all had developers who worked off of salary wages. They had a vary large team, and a publisher. You should take into consideration salary wages, and whether or not employees working on a title like that get overtime, and whether or not overtime is 1.5 or double per person working. It all adds up very fast.
Your goals are realistic. How you approach them may be unrealistic.
The kind of project you're talking about is... larger than large. Should you find funding to complete a game model you can use that to show investors you're capable of producing an end product. Investors will likely want their money back. Diablo 2, and 3 all had developers who worked off of salary wages. They had a vary large team, and a publisher. You should take into consideration salary wages, and whether or not employees working on a title like that get overtime, and whether or not overtime is 1.5 or double per person working. It all adds up very fast.
Your goals are realistic. How you approach them may be unrealistic.
#12 Moderators - Reputation: 4844
Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:52 PM
Ya I guess I was hoping for a general round about total ie. On average creating a diablo type game with modern graphics you'd be looking at around 1.5 million dollars etc.
Okay, then. $10-20 million.
ok ouch. Considering most huge MMOs don't pass the 10 million mark i'd say you may be overshooting the scale but perhaps that was on purpose to prove a point. The highest kickstarter i've seen for a game reached 3.33 million
If you wanted kickstarter figures, you should have said so. You asked how much it would cost to make Diablo today. You should expect to get answers to the questions that you actually ask -- not answers that you wish you would get.
-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com
Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.
#13 Members - Reputation: 1728
Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:53 PM
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Tom Sloper, on 12 July 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:
Falcon68, on 12 July 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:
Ya I guess I was hoping for a general round about total ie. On average creating a diablo type game with modern graphics you'd be looking at around 1.5 million dollars etc.
Okay, then. $10-20 million.
Falcon68, on 12 July 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:
ok ouch. Considering most huge MMOs don't pass the 10 million mark i'd say you may be overshooting the scale but perhaps that was on purpose to prove a point. The highest kickstarter i've seen for a game reached 3.33 million
If you wanted kickstarter figures, you should have said so. You asked how much it would cost to make Diablo today. You should expect to get answers to the questions that you actually ask -- not answers that you wish you would get.
I Falcon may be misunderstanding Kickstarter as a whole.
Kickstarter rarely 'fully funds' a project, it helps teams that have spent capital and ideas to get that extra lifeline by giving away promises.
If you look at the very popula ouya kickstarter right now, you'll realize that 30% of the capital was already invested before the kickstarter, and they're even saying that they actually need more than what they're asking for.
I agree fully that 10-20M$ is a realistic scope for a revamped Diablo 2, and if you intent on going the Blizzard way, you might want to double that if not more (they've been known to restart from scratch a few times when they considered the core idea didn't work).
A full large team of professionnals hired for so many years comes with a price, and you should not forget the marketing you'll need to invest in order to recoup your expanses.
you'd be looking at around 1.5 million dollars
Following a statement of that nature, I can hear the Dragon's den ask "where did you get these numbers exactly?"
I'm going to assume you already work in a AAA studio and have access to these numbers right?
As far as I can remember, 1.5M$ was actually the scope of a facebook game, or an action/adventure on the wii (both titles I've been responsible for).
In all modesty, I don't think these correlate to the project you're describing here, or there might be a lot of confusing elements that need to be defined that I have missed...
Edited by Orymus3, 12 July 2012 - 06:56 PM.
#14 Members - Reputation: 108
Posted 13 July 2012 - 08:38 AM
Falcon68, on 12 July 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:
you'd be looking at around 1.5 million dollars
Following a statement of that nature, I can hear the Dragon's den ask "where did you get these numbers exactly?"
I'm going to assume you already work in a AAA studio and have access to these numbers right?
As far as I can remember, 1.5M$ was actually the scope of a facebook game, or an action/adventure on the wii (both titles I've been responsible for).
In all modesty, I don't think these correlate to the project you're describing here, or there might be a lot of confusing elements that need to be defined that I have missed...
I think you misread me... I was using it as an example notice the ie prior to the statement.
So basically what I am hearing is unless I either come from a rich family or make millions of dollars from my job to fund the project myself there is no way to complete such a project. Very discouraging.
Regardless Kickstarter as a whole is there to help fund projects in general. But ya chances of fully funding a project seem slim.
Actually Ouya has been trying to figure out what to spend the extra money on which is why it was taking requests for new features.
So it seems like the best chance to finish the project is to perhaps offer profit shares and a set payment depending on amount earned from fundraising.
Edited by Falcon68, 13 July 2012 - 08:44 AM.
#15 Members - Reputation: 229
Posted 14 July 2012 - 10:08 PM
So let me get this straight. You have (a) no money, (b) no team and © not actual experience designing or producing games? Kickstarter is not the right place for you to try and learn how to make games on someone else's dime. People contribute to developers who have talent, experience and quite frankly something to show them. Double Fine raised $3.3M because of Tim Schaefer and a track record of finishing quality games. Ouya raised $4M because they had a slick video and a pitch tailored to the indie development crowd (everything can be hacked - um yay). You would be torn to pieces if all you had was "Vague Diablo 2 clone + unknown and not proven design concepts known only to you". People expect something in return for their pledges.
BTW - $10-20M is the low end of AAA games these days. There is no real telling how much Blizzard puts into its titles because they only ship "when they are finished". Larger games are nearing $100M and 400-500 developers. So you need to tailor your expectations with your current capacity.
If you want to work in games, then may I suggest working at an established developer or publisher. Crawl. Walk. Run.
BTW - $10-20M is the low end of AAA games these days. There is no real telling how much Blizzard puts into its titles because they only ship "when they are finished". Larger games are nearing $100M and 400-500 developers. So you need to tailor your expectations with your current capacity.
If you want to work in games, then may I suggest working at an established developer or publisher. Crawl. Walk. Run.
Kevin Reilly
Email: kevin.reilly.law@gmail.com
Twitter: kreilly77
Email: kevin.reilly.law@gmail.com
Twitter: kreilly77
#16 Members - Reputation: 1728
Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:13 AM
So basically what I am hearing is unless I either come from a rich family or make millions of dollars from my job to fund the project myself there is no way to complete such a project. Very discouraging.
I think you need investors, in any way shape or form (a loan if you have a strong business plan, people that strongly believe in your abilities, etc).
Actually Ouya has been trying to figure out what to spend the extra money on which is why it was taking requests for new features.
That's what happens when you're already raised 30% of the money before-hand and have exceeded your aims by 500%. It a good isolated case of overwhelming success. People seem to believe in the platform (although, not everyone: Robert Boyd is not a believer, and I have my own reserves).
So it seems like the best chance to finish the project is to perhaps offer profit shares and a set payment depending on amount earned from fundraising.
This is not tolerated by kickstarter unfortunately (as listed in their policies).
Kickstarter is not the right place for you to try and learn how to make games on someone else's dime.
People indeed don't tend to invest in the unknown (and yes, this is still an investment even if all they get in return is a console). If you look at the Ouya, you'll see who that CEO is. Just don't expect the same kind of support and this is nothing personal.
If you want to work in games, then may I suggest working at an established developer or publisher.
I'm going to second that. What you may now perceive as harsh criticism from our part merely looks that way because it clashes with your understanding of how it works. But after working in the industry for a while, instead of seeing obstacles, you might see opportunities. You may redefine the project you'd like to make within a subset of conditions that actually make sense and successfully bring a game on the virtual shelves with less trouble than it sounds.
#17 Members - Reputation: 3714
Posted 15 July 2012 - 01:25 PM
So basically what I am hearing is unless I either come from a rich family or make millions of dollars from my job to fund the project myself there is no way to complete such a project. Very discouraging.
Or you could just start with a project that you are capable of funding yourself and work your way up. (a small successful project will give you the cash you need to invest in something bigger plus you show potential investors that you can complete projects and make money)
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
#18 Members - Reputation: 108
Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:32 AM
Hmm some good suggestions. I've worked for 8 years as a game reviewer and i've been networking with many developers because of E3, etc. I've worked on a project before so I do have some experience in game development... I guess the main problem is I'm broke. My job literally barely covers my mortgage and bills due to the economy. So I can try and make a game that costs nothing but that seems virtually impossible. Unfortunately, my wife is currently holding me back a bit as she refuses to leave virginia beach because her and her mother are so close and she doesn't want to take her grand daughter away from her mom either, and there really aren't any game studios here. So I wanted to see if I can start from nothing and go from there but ya I realize that only happens in the movies lol.
My previous project I spent time on the phone with cliffy b discussing use of his engine for our project. Things fell through.. but he told me his story of how he started Epic Games and it was a big inspiration at that time.
My previous project I spent time on the phone with cliffy b discussing use of his engine for our project. Things fell through.. but he told me his story of how he started Epic Games and it was a big inspiration at that time.
Edited by Falcon68, 16 July 2012 - 11:38 AM.
#19 Members - Reputation: 3714
Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:34 PM
Hmm some good suggestions. I've worked for 8 years as a game reviewer and i've been networking with many developers because of E3, etc. I've worked on a project before so I do have some experience in game development... I guess the main problem is I'm broke. My job literally barely covers my mortgage and bills due to the economy. So I can try and make a game that costs nothing but that seems virtually impossible. Unfortunately, my wife is currently holding me back a bit as she refuses to leave virginia beach because her and her mother are so close and she doesn't want to take her grand daughter away from her mom either, and there really aren't any game studios here. So I wanted to see if I can start from nothing and go from there but ya I realize that only happens in the movies lol.
Lots of games have been made without a budget, Small games can be very profitable, in some cases far more profitable than the big games (in terms of profit per manhour).
You could make a prototype for a small game in less than 8 hours and assuming you don't work 7 days per week that should be fairly easy, add a month or two of evening and weekend work and you'll have a game you can sell or atleast pitch on kickstarter.
When you design your game you should keep the budget restrictions and your own limitations in mind, If you are a good programmer but bad at art something like geometry wars can be fairly easy, if art and writing is your strong side point&click adventure games or interactive fiction might be a better fit. (Allthough art heavy games are harder to do on a tight budget)
Don't design a game first and then try to work out a budget for it, decide on a realistic budget first and design a game that fits within it, if you don't have any money you should make a budget with your time instead.
For a first commercial part-time game i'd personally recommend trying to stay under 300 hours (at 10 hours per week this will still take over half a year and you probably need to make a few games to build enough of a customerbase to make a living)
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
#20 Members - Reputation: 108
Posted 16 July 2012 - 01:28 PM
From my hobbyist job posting I already have a modeler and animator interested in my project as a spare time kind of thing. I guess an engine may be the hard part alteast if I want decent graphics. I really need a programmer. I have some minor programming experience but I specialize in project management. So i can manage a team really well but I need one first =/.
