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Do i need more Classes?


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#1 teyken   Members   -  Reputation: 169

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:53 AM

I'm making a small mmo and things are going but I seem to have gotten a bit stuck - I have four archetypes in my game and I wanted to make five sub classes for each archetype, but now I have 6 sage classes, 5 clerics, 3 agents and 3 soldier.
I have upgrades for each of my subclasses so I really want to avoid to much overlap between classes.

Do i need more than three different Soldier types and Agent types?

Here are my current classes

Sage
Mages are adept at dealing damage from afar and placing powerful wards that impedes anyone who comes too close.

-Shadow mage
Shadow mages delve in the darker mysteries. Shadow spells apply shadow touch, a curse that snares and damages over time.

-Light mage
Light mages utilize the power of Light to infuse their surrounding, they are adept at marking targets an summoning latern archons to aid their allies. Enemies marked by light mages take more damage.

-Urge mage
Urge mages specialize in the raw stuff of the urge and the emberlings spirits that live of the pure urge energies, they specialize in damage and are very adept at setting the battlefield ablaze.

-Wyld mage
Wyld mages snare their enemies and reduce their damage potential. Their connection to the wyld allows them to heal faster and they are able to summon a great bear to aid them in battle.

-Ether mage
Ether mages are students of the all enveloping ether. Ether spells apply Ethertouch, a curse that deals damage and drains energy then the victim uses abilities.

-Alchemist
Alchemists can brew some very handy potions to heal and enhance your allies and poisons that damage and delay your enemies.

Soldier
Soldiers make up the front lines, adept at slowing down enemies and soaking up damage.

-Veteran
Veterans specialize in hindering enemies and soaking up damage, they are tough as nails and quite mobile. They are best when supported, as their healing abilities are very limited.

-Berserker
Berserkers are adept at dealing damage and can hitting multiple enemies at one. They are also quite mobile and tough.

-Warlord
Warlords uses shouts to buff nearby allies but deals less damage and a are less tanky than other soldier types

Cleric
Clerics are often found on the front lines where they heal and bolster their allies.

-Cleric of Oran
Clerics of Oran are crusaders of justice, they shield themselves with Light energies and are adept at curing conditions.

-Cleric of Dwade
Clerics of Dwade are morticians and serves as guides for the dead. Some sects specialize in undeath as a means to become eternal servants of Dwade.

-Cleric of Ianna
Clerics of Ianna specialize in healing through the powers of the wyld, clerics are good at healing their allies while joining in the fray.

-Cleric of Callysta
Clerics of Callysta are adept at removing curses from allies and blessings from foes. Their healing is also very potent and they can increase the movement speed of allies.

-Cleric of Aden
Clerics of Aden specialize in healing and empowering allies through the powers of the urge, clerics are good at improving their allies while joining in the fray.

Agent
Agents are mobile and elusive, they are adept at penetrating enemy lines to take out high priority targets.

-Fencer
Fencers excel at avoiding attacks and getting in and out of engagements easily, Their main function is to break the stances of their enemies, severely weakening them.

-Assasin
Elusive and quick, assasins are adept at killing fast and getting away. They often use poisons and light weapons.

-Archer
Ranged combat specialist, very mobile.

The game is currently in early beta and available here : http://www.parnassus.erethic.eu/page/Download.aspx

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#2 Rld_   Members   -  Reputation: 1527

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:07 AM

You have a lot of classes/subclasses already, would adding more add anything specific to the game?

I'm not sure of quantity is the answer, people will have a hard time deciding and on your part (I don't know all the features of your game) it will mean more balancing and whatnot. I'd rather see 5 classes that play uniquely than to have 20 classes in which only 4 classes would feel unique.

So ask yourself this question, does adding a new class (or more) add anything to your game? Does Class X feel the same as Class Y from the the same archetype?

#3 teyken   Members   -  Reputation: 169

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:46 AM

Those where pretty much my concerns too, the subclasses does not have to feel very unique (most of the mages are pretty much the same) but they have very distinct spell effects, nature mages throw leaves and make spikes shoot from the earth while a shadow mage throw shadowy tentacles and swirling patches of darkness. The game effect is pretty much the same, damage and snare or root. But I know players love to customize.

The problem with soldiers and agents is that their customization largely comes from gear, its much harder (to me at least) to invent a new agent or soldier subclass while giving it a strong sense of theme. Agents and soldier subclasses also have much greater game play difference atm.

#4 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3422

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:17 AM

I would lose Alchemist from the Sage class and transfer it to the Agent class....Think of Q's gadgets tied to the agent in the bond movies. Specialising in everything from explosives, gases, poisons, acids, pheromones etc.

I have no real comment on the Cleric classes as you haven't really entered the mythology of your game so am hesitant to suggest something that would upset that apple cart

Alternative Agent class suggestions
Bard
Thug
Thief
Bandit
Chameleon
Trapper

Alternative Soldier suggestions
Weapon master
Grenadier (ranged explosives)
Specialist (limited weapon range but powerful)
Armour fighter (The armour is weaponised with blades spikes etc)
Monster (Possibly to akin to Beserker - but transforms ala jekyl and hyde)


Hope these help :)

#5 teyken   Members   -  Reputation: 169

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:15 PM

Damnit Stormy! that is excellent!
I have actually been thinking of a Jekyl/Hyde type character some time ago but i completely forgot about it and I can't believe I hadn't thought about the bard! I'll definitely put that in - I Just finished the archer class today :) a few more classes and I can move on to city upgrades (buildings and civics)

My artist just sent me two new backgrounds that I'm implementing tonight, sneak peek here :
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#6 teyken   Members   -  Reputation: 169

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:23 PM

I don't think I made it clear enough that subclasses are very much like spec, i.e. they can share abilities and play styles. Just to make clear that I'm not going for 20 unique classes (that would be insane!)

#7 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3422

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:26 PM

Look at League of Legends and tell me that many many classes is insane :)

#8 Casey Hardman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2251

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:41 PM

You say that the subclasses can share abilities and playstyles. Do you mean rather than choosing one subclass once you reach level X and only using skills from that subclass, you can mix spells from each subclass and blend them together in a way?

If so, I suppose each subclass could be treated similar to a "school of magic" or "skill tree". For example, Fire magic excels at dealing damage, Ice excels at snaring and slowing but lacks damage, and so on. Then the player can mix spells from each school/tree to have their own unique playstyle.

Or did you mean that each one is generally similar, but have different art behind their spells? That's kind of what I get from this:

they have very distinct spell effects, nature mages throw leaves and make spikes shoot from the earth while a shadow mage throw shadowy tentacles and swirling patches of darkness. The game effect is pretty much the same, damage and snare or root. But I know players love to customize.


If so, I don't think that'll make players feel like they're customizing, since there will eventually be hundreds of players with the same subclass as them.

#9 teyken   Members   -  Reputation: 169

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:20 PM

@Stormy - I know! those guys are insane :D

@Jefferson - Some subclasses unlocks abilities that are then available to other classes - There are also upgrades that unlocks single abilities that can be used from then on. The whole thing is a bit restricted version of the Guild wars 1 setup.
I think one of my problems is that we have yet to create a fully realized 'skill-tree' at the moment we just have 120ish abilities that are kinda floating around.
I'm not sure it is possible to make players feel truly unique due to cookie cutting and class restrictions but it is surely a valid point.

When I started the project I wanted all abilities to be unlocks and have zero class restrictions but that just made everything very messy and weird (not to mention a balancing hell!)

I ended up renaming Warlord to vanguard - he now has the following abilities:
mouse 1 : swing (0-1 target,Low damage,energy builder)
mouse 2 : hack (0-3 target, medium damage, low cost)
button 1 : Bolstering shout (heals and increased damage, self + allies) - cooldown group [Shout]
button 2 : Defiant shout (heals and reduce damage taken, self + allies)- cooldown group [Shout]
button 3 : Tactical shout (Increase movement and remove engagement debuff, self + allies)- cooldown group [Shout]
button 4 : Camp (Long channel, heal + ress, self + allies)
button 5 : Energizing shout (all energy is drained, allies gain half that energy, allies)
button 6 : Commander (stance, removes engagement debuff periodically, self)

engagement debuff is a debuff cause by all melee attacks that reduces movement speed - this is to prevent weird kiting and running though mobs (think daze from WoW)

#10 Mratthew   Members   -  Reputation: 1582

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:58 PM

Mage or Cleric maybe
-Time mage (controls the speed of allies and enemies)

Soldier or Cleric maybe
-Cursed (using skills builds random amount of pain, lengthening skill cooldown the more variety of skills that are used, random combination of skills will max out the pain and triggers the character to become a demon)

Soldier
-General (places icons to represent the different playing classes on enemies, encouraging allies of that symbol to attack that target, reduce skill cooldown? long range, low damage)

Agent or soldier
-Siegeworks ("summons" siege tools to hit multiple enemies, area effect)

Agent
-Spy (looks like another type of characters, skills look like that character, uses spy skills instead)

#11 teyken   Members   -  Reputation: 169

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:36 AM

I like the Cursed idea - I think that could be very easily combined with the Jekyl/Hyde character, maybe instead of pain its drugs and at some point he just flips. Could even give him AI for a short duration. A whole new bran of Leroy.

#12 Densoro   Members   -  Reputation: 196

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:36 PM

Those where pretty much my concerns too, the subclasses does not have to feel very unique (most of the mages are pretty much the same) but they have very distinct spell effects, nature mages throw leaves and make spikes shoot from the earth while a shadow mage throw shadowy tentacles and swirling patches of darkness. The game effect is pretty much the same, damage and snare or root. But I know players love to customize.

As Jefferson said, there's the issue of the sub/classes feeling samey; I love cosmetic customization, but only in relation to appearance. If you give me several face shapes, body styles, eyes and hairstyles to work with, I'll be in heaven. But when the actual gameplay offers me a false sense of choice, that actually really gets under my skin. I want the rifle and the SMG to feel different. Hell, I want the top-heavy broadsword to feel different from the hilt-heavy one. Choices should matter; the player wants to be able to make their character and their play-style mesh. By just painting the special effects different colors...well, you get the Mass Effect 3 ending rage XD

#13 LorenzoGatti   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2779

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 06:53 AM

You say that the subclasses can share abilities and playstyles. Do you mean rather than choosing one subclass once you reach level X and only using skills from that subclass, you can mix spells from each subclass and blend them together in a way?

If so, I suppose each subclass could be treated similar to a "school of magic" or "skill tree". For example, Fire magic excels at dealing damage, Ice excels at snaring and slowing but lacks damage, and so on. Then the player can mix spells from each school/tree to have their own unique playstyle.


I agree with the suggestion, mainly because this way the choice of a "class" would be delayed until it is meaningful and subdivided into manageable and understandable portions.
At the beginning of the game, how can a first-time player grasp the difference between a Cleric of Foo and a Cleric of Bar? The most that the game designer can expect is a commitment to a broad class, like Cleric, on the basis of a simple description and set of expectations (e.g. Clerics have moderate fighting ability, healing spells, and a number of mostly noncombat spells that fall within the sphere of interests of the gods they are on good terms with)
Then the player, after learning more of the game world and of how character abilities can be useful, can choose to make his "Agent" learn more Archery, tighten the ties of his cleric to a certain god because he knows he wants certain spells (or because the god is on the side of the good guys, or other in-game reasons), and so on.
Produci, consuma, crepa




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