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Java vs C# - Experts points of view


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#1 Portella   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:35 AM

I know that this question has come up hundreds of times on forums, but it is really disappointing how one can read through dozens of threads (hundreds of posts) without getting an informed, unbiased view.

I'm a beginner programmer with very basic knowledge of C# and I see that thousands of others have the same doubt as me when trying to choose between those two languages. We receive answers like "language doesn't matter, learn algorithms, design principles, oop structure, etc", or "after learning java you'll jump to C# easily".

It's not that I disagree with the above, but apart from learning the principles, structure, logic, etc, one need to get a repertoire of tools and, in fact, the language chosen may not matter that much, but the framework linked to it can take much time to be mastered. I have read through discussions about whole teams of experienced programmers resisting the change to another framework, indicating that this is a real concern among seasoned programmers. It's not just a question of adapting to syntax.

Most discussions about both languages see the same repeated statements:
- if you take on C#, you marry Windows.
- No, you don't, you'll always have mono. (nothing is said about personal experience with mone though)
- Java is "more" cross-platform.
- C# is a better structured language. (this is the only point I see which seems to be uncontested in MOST debates, but again, it's not only about the languages, but about what its environment).
- C# has better performance. (I don't know if that is true, but the possibility of using development tools like XNA and UNITY seems to have no parallel in Java. At least, from what I was able to find, JMonkey seems to be one of the best graphical engines around for use with Java, and graphics seem rather primitive)
- Others just talk about very specific details, like GC efficiency, etc.

Synthesizing, much of what is said seem like myths, uninformed points of view, fanboy talk or biased propaganda. I've even read a recent article which presumed itself very scientifically focused stating that C# has already had it best moment, but would soon fall into oblivion.
To guide those that are beginning and that, differently from expert programmers, are concerned with what will continue to be available in 3 or 4 years from now, when they finally get productive, what do you consider to be the future of C# and Java? What is real about C# portability? What does Android java code translation, Mono, ISO standardization really mean in terms of tendencies? What about performance and graphics? Is there any engine like Unity for Java use? Will it ever be? What about future development? Some say that Java has been slower than C# in that aspect, others say that new languages based on the JVM make Java environment more worth learning.

I would like to listen to informed point of views. Analysis by those that really know about what they are talking about, not fanboy talks and propaganda. This would be very useful, not only for me, but for thousands of others that are reading through the multiple forum threads which only bring further confusion.

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#2 Telastyn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3726

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:03 AM

Trying to be as un-flame-war like as possible:

Synthesizing, much of what is said seem like myths, uninformed points of view, fanboy talk or biased propaganda.


This is largely true, though your bullet points are largely correct.

what do you consider to be the future of C# and Java?


Java has been effectively abandoned, and is largely crippled by its lack of good generic and functional programming support.
C# is starting to show its age, where it's difficult to improve upon it more.
I suspect that both will remain the top two most used general purpose programming languages in 3-4 years, though their relative popularity will decrease; Java's faster than C#.

What is real about C# portability?


C# can be ported and it has gotten a lot better due to mobile platform motivations, but the cutting edge and best support will for the foreseeable future be on windows. That said, beginners care about portability WAY more than they should.


As for the other questions, they're vague or outside of what I can speak to. C# is fast enough, and generally, so is Java. Java has worse support for games in general, and I expect that trend to continue.

Edited by Telastyn, 18 July 2012 - 10:04 AM.


#3 Mike.Popoloski   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2923

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:16 AM

Because I'm a bit bored:

First of all, one of the core abilities a good programmer must possess is being able to take information on a subject, potentially incomplete or misleading, and act on it. Hamstringing yourself by agonizing over every decision will get you no where. The fact of the matter is, these guys:

We receive answers like "language doesn't matter, learn algorithms, design principles, oop structure, etc", or "after learning java you'll jump to C# easily"


are pretty much spot on. You're not going get an informed, unbiased view by talking to other people; you can only get that from looking at the evidence yourself and trying both to give them a fair comparison. Your emphasis on framework over language is irrelevant in this regard; the same tenets apply.

With that being said, I can give you a (in my opinion) fairly informed (though certainly not unbiased) view of the State of the Union, as it were, in managed development.

Portability: Both Java and C# share a mostly equivalent amount of "portability points" in the language ranking wars. C# runs on Windows, Xbox, and Windows Phone, via .NET and on a huge plethora of platforms via Mono, including some of the other game consoles, and even on embedded systems. Similarly, Java runs on mostly the same set, with a few differences such as Android instead of WinPhone (embedded systems for Java are not unheard of either.)

From personal experience regarding Mono, it works just fine. I've worked on the Mono runtime, and while it's admittedly not as good as the Microsoft one (which is developed and maintained by some of the best engineers in the business), it has some nice bits that aren't even available in .NET (such as support for SSE intrinsics). I happen to think the code generation is quite good too Posted Image

Language: As you've said, this one is mostly uncontested by those who take even a remotely unbiased view of things. Java and C# were very similar languages when C# first launched; in the intervening decade however, C# has continued to grow and implement new features, whereas Java has mostly stagnated. Once you've used some of the new features such as lambdas, dynamic typing, expression trees, or the asynchronous programming support, it'll be painful to go back to a language that does not have them.

Performance: You're not going to get graphs and charts of performance because you can't compare the performance of something so abstract as a language, or even of a framework as a whole. You can only benchmark specific tasks and processes within said constraints, and you can find such comparisons all over the place if you look. On the whole, it wouldn't surprise me if equivalent C# programs ran faster on average, but I'd say that's more because C# provides a greater range of language features that allow you to implement the same algorithms with less overhead. For example, Java has no concept of value types. C# can make use of these to avoid allocations in tight loops, reducing GC pressure.

Platform: Just as a Windows user, I have to say that I absolutely despise Java as a runtime platform. The installer tries to install random toolbars, the updater runs regardless of whether you disable it in the settings, and the thing is just slow and bulky and seems to eat way more cycles than it should. Saying nothing about its viability from a programmer's perspective, even as an end user I don't want it on my machine, and in fact have explicitly uninstalled it to prevent these sort of issues. The .NET framework, on the other hand, seems to stay out of my way. It has an unfair advantage of course, in that it comes built into Windows and gets updates quietly and painlessly through Windows Update, but as an end user I only care about results.

Game Development: You can do game development in any language and on any platform. People have proven that countless times over the years. How easy that is going to be, however, is a completely different question. C# seems to have growing support for game development, from engines like Unity to platforms like XNA or the new Playstation Vita SDK. I've yet to see similar excitement over anything from the Java end, apart from frameworks for mobile Android development. In the end, it's the community of users that is going to most affect your development experience, since there will be a greater amount of information to draw from to help you out. From that perspective, it's hard to beat the XNA community, which has tons of people using it, resulting in forum posts, books, and tons of middleware libraries scattered about. If you're looking for a personal perspective, I maintain an open source C# game development library called SlimDX. I happen to think it's pretty nifty.

In the Future: You won't go wrong from a career perspective learning either language. Companies are currently using both of them, which means even 5 to 10 years down the road there will be a demand for them, if only to help maintain current products. With that said, I'd place my money on Microsoft over Oracle, who recently acquired Java from their purchase of Sun and seem bent on driving it into the ground by suing people and pissing off prominent open source projects. On the other hand, Microsoft gives support to the Mono team on various bits of the project, and have legally bound themselves not to use any of their patents against them by putting them under their Community Promise program.

So that's the story, in a nutshell. I personally work at a AAA game studio, and I've done C# work on tools there. I'm sure there exist similar positions in other companies that use Java instead, though I don't know anyone who does and have yet to see positions advertised as such. I think it's clear which one I favor, though as I've tried to emphasize, you can't go wrong learning either. The more knowledge you acquire, the more versatile developer you will be, and nobody is ever going to deride you for that.

Edited by Mike.Popoloski, 18 July 2012 - 06:56 PM.

Mike Popoloski | Journal | SlimDX

#4 alnite   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2123

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:09 PM

Ultimately, Java or C# or C++ do not matter. You really should consider programming languages as musical instruments, and you use them to play your music. Some instruments work better for certain types of music. But just like any other good musicians, a programmer must learn how to play not just one instrument, but several. Depending on what music he wants to play, what mood he wants to convey, he picks up the right instrument and play it like a maestro.

Since you are a beginner, pick one. Java or C# really does not matter. C# has XNA for games. Java, on the other hand, has plenty of 3rd party libraries, but also allows you to make games for Android. Pick your platform (XNA or mobile), then start learning.

#5 wood_brian   Banned   -  Reputation: 197

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:57 PM

Ultimately, Java or C# or C++ do not matter. You really should consider programming languages as musical instruments, and you use them to play your music. Some instruments work better for certain types of music. But just like any other good musicians, a programmer must learn how to play not just one instrument, but several. Depending on what music he wants to play, what mood he wants to convey, he picks up the right instrument and play it like a maestro.


It seems like musicians have a speciality though like Yo-Yo Ma.

Since you are a beginner, pick one. Java or C# really does not matter. C# has XNA for games. Java, on the other hand, has plenty of 3rd party libraries, but also allows you to make games for Android. Pick your platform (XNA or mobile), then start learning.


Picking one makes sense, but I think the decision matters and depending on the person could see them deciding to focus on C# or Java. If I were forced to pick between those two I think I'd pick C#. The performance of this compression library on different languages is kind of interesting.

Edited by wood_brian, 18 July 2012 - 12:58 PM.


#6 alnite   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2123

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:14 PM


Ultimately, Java or C# or C++ do not matter. You really should consider programming languages as musical instruments, and you use them to play your music. Some instruments work better for certain types of music. But just like any other good musicians, a programmer must learn how to play not just one instrument, but several. Depending on what music he wants to play, what mood he wants to convey, he picks up the right instrument and play it like a maestro.


It seems like musicians have a speciality though like Yo-Yo Ma.


Of course, just as there are programmers who only code in C++, ASM, Cobol, Java and nothing else. It's a matter of preference. But even Yo-Yo Ma, I'm pretty sure, has played other instruments before settling on the cello.



Since you are a beginner, pick one. Java or C# really does not matter. C# has XNA for games. Java, on the other hand, has plenty of 3rd party libraries, but also allows you to make games for Android. Pick your platform (XNA or mobile), then start learning.


Picking one makes sense, but I think the decision matters and depending on the person could see them deciding to focus on C# or Java. If I were forced to pick between those two I think I'd pick C#. The performance of this compression library on different languages is kind of interesting.


At this early stage, any performance benchmark doesn't matter. Why is he going to do now, write an algorithm computing 1 billion data points for secret military operations in Nevada? Think about it in utility sense. Java and C# are probably two languages that are the closest to one another in term of the syntax. The main differences between the two of them are the platforms they are typically used for. Now the question becomes which platform that the OP is most comfortable in. Choosing one does not mean that he's stuck at that for the rest of his life. Choosing C# does not mean "Oh no, Windows forever! Apple is getting popular! I can't switch anymore!" Choosing Java does not make you are a slave to JVMs. He can be learning C# now and switch to Java 2 years later, or vice versa. Can't you see how trivial choosing a language is, especially between C# and Java?

Edited by alnite, 18 July 2012 - 01:14 PM.


#7 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6174

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:18 PM


Ultimately, Java or C# or C++ do not matter. You really should consider programming languages as musical instruments, and you use them to play your music. Some instruments work better for certain types of music. But just like any other good musicians, a programmer must learn how to play not just one instrument, but several. Depending on what music he wants to play, what mood he wants to convey, he picks up the right instrument and play it like a maestro.


It seems like musicians have a speciality though like Yo-Yo Ma.


I think it was a bad analogy, I'd look at it more like tools in general, a carpenter won't use a hammer to divide a board in 2 parts, he'll use the saw (And if you see a carpenter trying to bang a nail in with a saw, well... either he is a programmer who thinks one tool is all you need or he is insane)

Edited by SimonForsman, 18 July 2012 - 01:21 PM.

I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#8 alnite   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2123

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:56 PM

I think it was a bad analogy, I'd look at it more like tools in general, a carpenter won't use a hammer to divide a board in 2 parts, he'll use the saw (And if you see a carpenter trying to bang a nail in with a saw, well... either he is a programmer who thinks one tool is all you need or he is insane)


I thought of using that analogy, but I think it's slightly inaccurate. You can't properly cut a board with a hammer, but any programming language can be used to make almost all sorts of applications. Both Java and C# can be used to make games. They both can accomplish the same thing. So I avoid using the tools analogy, as I don't want to imply that different languages are used for different things. Other programming languages might fall into that category, such as Ruby/PHP/Javascript for web development, but at least, not these two.

#9 Bluefirehawk   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1232

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:07 AM

We receive answers like "language doesn't matter, learn algorithms, design principles, oop structure, etc", or "after learning java you'll jump to C# easily".

Like others said before, spot on. The language difference of C# and Java is trivial.

My advise is: start with one and if you feel comfortable with it, go to the other. After that, make applications with both languages.

Looking at other "beginner" programmers, the jump from your first language to the second is never easy. I think it's actually very frustrating but it is an important step to make. You'll learn a new Framework with different tools and implementation for the same job. You will see first hand the difference between design principles and their pros and cons. You will make jumps to different languages, frameworks and toolsets in your life as a programmer. Don't choose between the two languages, chances are, with so popular languages like java and c#, that later on you'd have to make an application in the other language anyways. And if not, your third jump will be easier. My advice is that after C# and/or java you move on to C++. So you will learn what the JRE and the .Net Runtime Engine are hiding from you.

Java's faster than C#.

Nope.
In Windows, the .Net Framework is closer tied to the Operating System. A Windows Computer should generally execute a C# Program faster than a Java Program. Especially Window programming has less overhead for its operations in C#.
Now to make things more complex, Java has a badass runtime optimisation. Compare the calculation times of a simple algorithm like Selection sort, after the third run or so your algorithm will run at least *2 faster.
I saw benchmarks on Linux machines, Java was there a bit faster than C# Mono. On a Windows computer, my money would be on C# for most applications.

...

can only subscribe to what you said, very good posting

Final note on C# VS Java...
if your task is to create a Window in a Microsoft enviroment, take C#. There is the greatest strength of .Net / the biggest weakness of the Java Framework.
For any other task your choice depends on the job and the enviroment.
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#10 Telastyn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3726

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:30 AM

Telastyn, on 18 July 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Java's faster than C#.


This is taken out of context. If you re-read, you'll see that I said that Java's relative popularity will decrease faster than C#'s.

Nope.
In Windows, the .Net Framework is closer tied to the Operating System. A Windows Computer should generally execute a C# Program faster than a Java Program. Especially Window programming has less overhead for its operations in C#.



This is entirely incorrect. The .NET windowing API is closer to windows, meaning less adaptation overhead (maybe). That's the standard library, not the runtime. Java could've made (essentially) the same windowing API to get the same level of overhead.

Now to make things more complex, Java has a badass runtime optimisation. Compare the calculation times of a simple algorithm like Selection sort, after the third run or so your algorithm will run at least *2 faster.
I saw benchmarks on Linux machines, Java was there a bit faster than C# Mono. On a Windows computer, my money would be on C# for most applications.


.NET has the same sort of runtime optimizations (except on system types, which are pre-compiled in Microsoft's implementation).


Quit spreading misinformation.

Edited by Telastyn, 19 July 2012 - 06:31 AM.


#11 NightCreature83   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2933

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:28 AM

The matter of the fact is that you need to learn a language and the best one to pick is the one you are most comfortable with, which in your case is C# as you know a little of it already. Learn the language well enough so that you can tackle any problem in it, this will give you the wanted skills (algorithm design, design principles, oop structure and data structures) to move on to any other language. Sadly enough programming is a skill you have to learn through doing it is not something you can pick up from reading books, books however can provide you with insights in how to solve problems.

I jumped languages quite a bit in the beginning, I started of in Pascal moved to Delphi Pascal, then to C# and Java and eventually to C++. Nowadays I am most comfortable in C++ and C#. I never got how stuff worked until I forced myself to learn C++ and all of a sudden I could program in all these other languages as well. My point is stick with a language until you can actually write a non trivial program then switch to another language if you want to.

Frameworks are handy but you don't need to learn them inside out as long as you get a good grasp of how they work you can get a long with any of them, just turns out to be a question of finding out what they are called in the other framework. This also brings me to the final point once you start working you have to most likely get used to another framework which is the codebase everyone in the job works in, and that is the most important thing in programming be willing to always keep learning and adapting to a new thing.
Worked on titles: CMR:DiRT2, DiRT 3, DiRT: Showdown, GRID 2, Mad Max

#12 Bluefirehawk   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1232

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:35 AM

This is taken out of context. If you re-read, you'll see that I said that Java's relative popularity will decrease faster than C#'s.

Look, english isn't my native language, i thought this sentence was kind of a sidenote.

This is entirely incorrect. The .NET windowing API is closer to windows, meaning less adaptation overhead (maybe). That's the standard library, not the runtime. Java could've made (essentially) the same windowing API to get the same level of overhead.

.NET has the same sort of runtime optimizations (except on system types, which are pre-compiled in Microsoft's implementation).

I never wrote runtime, i meant the .NET Framework in general. My statement was inaccurate, i agree. I don't know enough about the integration of the .Net Framework in the OS as I'd like, so I didn't make a more specific statement. I would be supprised if Windows handles .Net just as an other Userlibrary, but like I said, I don't know as much about it as id' like.

.NET has the same sort of runtime optimizations (except on system types, which are pre-compiled in Microsoft's implementation).

I'm currently studying, so you naturally just hear about the java one. I thought Java's implementation was superior. Do Java and C# use similar algorithms?

Quit spreading misinformation.

[removed insult], i never claimed to know everything, nor to be infallable. If something i wrote was wrong or inaccurate, tell me. But don't be so butthurt about it.
I know this is the web, but grow up.

Edited by jbadams, 19 July 2012 - 05:44 PM.
: Removed an insult -- please don't degrade to insults or name-calling on our forums.

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#13 e‍dd   Members   -  Reputation: 2105

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:31 AM

I'm a beginner programmer with very basic knowledge of C# and I see that thousands of others have the same doubt as me when trying to choose between those two languages. We receive answers like "language doesn't matter, learn algorithms, design principles, oop structure, etc", or "after learning java you'll jump to C# easily".

That's absolutely true. I've used them both in a professional capacity now. I don't happen to like either language all that much, but hey :)

It's not that I disagree with the above, but apart from learning the principles, structure, logic, etc, one need to get a repertoire of tools and, in fact, the language chosen may not matter that much, but the framework linked to it can take much time to be mastered.

Indeed it can. The Java SDK(s) and the .NET framework(s) are each rather comprehensive. But you don't need to know all of an SDK to be productive. You aren't going to sit down and read a 2000 page book on the SDK before you start writing code, are you(?). We all learn as we go.

I have read through discussions about whole teams of experienced programmers resisting the change to another framework, indicating that this is a real concern among seasoned programmers. It's not just a question of adapting to syntax.

Right, it matters a heck of a lot if you've got N years of infrastructure and code built up in one language. There had better be a good reason to change. This doesn't have a lot to do with syntax, merely momentum and business needs. I don't think this should be suprising or confusing(?).

Most discussions about both languages see the same repeated statements:
- if you take on C#, you marry Windows.
- No, you don't, you'll always have mono. (nothing is said about personal experience with mone though)

Perhaps you should try Mono. Make some benchmarks, or write a little of the kind of code you're interested in. If it works to your satisfaction, you don't have to worry. Other people's opinions are formed by their respective experiences. When you are deciding on a language/toolchain/whatever, you are ultimately responsible for the decision so if this really is important, you should be doing careful, rational experiments anyway.

- Java is "more" cross-platform.

In theory, no. Currently in practice, yes. The CLR is more mature than Mono at present. Whether Mono is not mature enough is something you will have to judge for yourself by trying it out. At the very least get some relatively large C# projects that claim to run on top of Mono and see how they perform and feel.

- C# is a better structured language. (this is the only point I see which seems to be uncontested in MOST debates, but again, it's not only about the languages, but about what its environment).

C# has the advantage of hindsight. Its generics model is much nicer than Javas, which has made a big difference in the code that I've written, at least. C# has also evolved faster meaning it has more features. We're on the cusp of seeing lambdas in Java, for example, whereas they've been in C# for quite a while. They're another thing I've found very useful.

- C# has better performance.

I have no real comment on this. If there are benchmarks of near-identical code running on tuned VMs, fair enough, but be careful here. Both languages (on Windows anyway) are acceptably fast for many things. Though if you really, really care about squeezing out as much performance as possible, I wouldn't choose Java or C#.

(I don't know if that is true, but the possibility of using development tools like XNA and UNITY seems to have no parallel in Java. At least, from what I was able to find, JMonkey seems to be one of the best graphical engines around for use with Java, and graphics seem rather primitive)

The fact that such frameworks are available in C# may be important, but I don't think this is reflection on performance. But if you're considering XNA then you clearly care less about portability. So you can therefore restrict your investigation to seeing which runs best on Windows. Is this the case?

- Others just talk about very specific details, like GC efficiency, etc.

As far as I know, the JVM GC is more configurable and I suspect somewhat more mature, but that's something your benchmarks and investigations can uncover. Again, they're both acceptably fast for many applications. Probably acceptably fast for yours if you're just starting.

Synthesizing, much of what is said seem like myths, uninformed points of view, fanboy talk or biased propaganda.

Yes, this is why I would encourage you to do your own experiments. Get some numbers you can trust.

I've even read a recent article which presumed itself very scientifically focused stating that C# has already had it best moment, but would soon fall into oblivion.

Some have been saying the same about Java for a long time now. Visual Basic is also still with us. Lisp is being revitalised by Clojure. Nobody can predict these things reliably.

To guide those that are beginning and that, differently from expert programmers, are concerned with what will continue to be available in 3 or 4 years from now, when they finally get productive, what do you consider to be the future of C# and Java?

In 3 years time, you may well know both Java and C# and you'll be one of the people saying "it doesn't really matter, your skills are largely transferrable between the two".

What does Android java code translation, Mono, ISO standardization really mean in terms of tendencies?

Tendencies?

I would like to listen to informed point of views. Analysis by those that really know about what they are talking about, not fanboy talks and propaganda.

That would be nice, but I don't think it can realistically happen to the degree you want. Once a person or company has picked a language/framework/etc, they'll tend to stick with it. You know what you'll be using the language for, and the choice seems to matter to you a heck of a lot given the kinds of questions you're asking. If that really is the case (though in reality I suspect you're worrying a little too much), the final decision has to be based on metrics and evidence from your own tests.

The first thing you need to decide is what platforms you are genuinely targeting. If you don't have a Linux machine, or a Mac (etc) for testing, you aren't realistically going to writing code to run on them. So the whole question of Mono's quality can be completely ignored.

Similarly, the framework(s) you might want to use (Unity, XNA, etc) might limit the platforms available for selection.

If you want to sell what you create, phones will likely be your biggest market these days, meaning Android/Dalvik and/or iOS/Objective-C, again limiting your selection.

Once you've answered these questions, you'll probably be left with a single option anyway...

FWIW, C# is more fun.

#14 Narf the Mouse   Members   -  Reputation: 318

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:30 PM

A better analogy for programming languages might be toolboxes, not tools.

Pretty much any carpenters' toolbox contains most of the tools a carpenter needs; however, some assortments are better for some jobs and most carpenters have a favorite assortment of tools.

#15 Portella   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 05:01 PM

I really must thank everyone here for their points of view. It seems that I have given the impression of being overly concerned about my choice, to the point of staying frozen. I would only want to say that this isn't true. I keep going on with C#, but meanwhile, I want to keep getting informed in a subject that is still not clear enough. It's true that, as time passes, I'll probably approach the point Edd stated: In 3 years time, you may well know both Java and C# and you'll be one of the people saying "it doesn't really matter, your skills are largely transferrable between the two". Yet, I think it's the natural beginners anxiety, when exposed to a huge information flow from a competitive and fluid field of knowledge full of propaganda statements.
I know that completely unbiased opinions are very difficult to get. Even here, we can have the impression of C# being a little favored, but the important thing is that I was able to get some very useful information by people who seem to have enough knowledge to make a good analysis and for that I thank you.
Edd, I think that "tendencies" wasn't a good choice of word (it's more of a literal translation from portuguese); "trend", perhaps, would be better. Or, in the used context, "inclination of C# towards being cross-platform". I hope I'm expressing myself better now.

#16 Nypyren   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4498

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:04 PM

From a user's point of view, Java pisses me off.

Many IDEs and command line tools I use daily are based on Eclipse (which runs on Java). With large projects, you always run into the default memory limit. You google the error and go change the command line settings or config file to manually specify a larger memory limit. .Net doesn't have that, at least in windows. You run out of memory when the process or operating system limit is hit.

Almost all of the Flash-related tools use Java:
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Working on any large project involving a Java-based IDE inevitably runs into their artificial memory ceiling. I've never run into a single .Net app that has this kind of annoyance.



Cross-platform toolchain automation is a hassle with Java compared to .Net. Spawn a process and then get its process ID. You can't do this in Java. You can in .Net and Mono.


Mike's post above about Java's windows installer wanting to install toolbars was seriously the last straw for me. What is this, a startup company trying to get quick ad revenue? NO. IT'S ORACLE. Stop being douchebags, Oracle!

Edited by Nypyren, 19 July 2012 - 07:08 PM.


#17 alnite   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2123

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:54 PM

Many IDEs and command line tools I use daily are based on Eclipse (which runs on Java). With large projects, you always run into the default memory limit. You google the error and go change the command line settings or config file to manually specify a larger memory limit.


Eclipse is a crappy IDE. I still have no idea why a lot of people are supporting and using it, as if it's the only Java IDE. I open my project, Eclipse complains 100+ errors. Close project. Close Eclipse. Reopen Eclipse. Reopen project. Errors are gone! wtf?

I have been using IntelliJ, personally and professionally, and I couldn't be any more happier. Intuitive shortcuts (i.e. Ctrl + / to toggle comments!), great refactoring tools, syntax highlighter, seamless versioning integration, even more than what Visual Studio comes with. It has the free community edition too.

#18 Telastyn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3726

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:18 PM

Netbeans was also nice when I had to do Java. Similar to visual studio in a number of ways (for better or worse).

#19 M6dEEp   Members   -  Reputation: 893

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:31 PM

From a user's point of view, Java pisses me off.


I totally agree, and that is why I've moved on to C# personally.

The main difference between the two in my opinion is the fact that Sun REALLY tries to keep you from shooting yourself in the foot. Notice the lack of unsafe code usage like pointers as well the (in my opinion) crappy reflection and you can probably see what I mean. Due to this very fact, if you want to transition to C++ later I would recommend moving to (or just starting out with) C# at some point to learn the more advanced constructs in a more 'C like' environment (plus C# has more overlapping features with C++ than Java does). I've been doing C# for about 2 years now and the transition to C++ took almost no time at all. Sure I'm no expert, but I could jump in with some tutorials and learn the ropes without feeling intimidated or overwhelmed, and now I'm making applications with little outside help.

My friends and I also think that Java was created by narcissistic programmers... JFrame, JDBC, JPA everything starts with a damn J and it almost seems like they're trying to trademark their APIs.

I've even read a recent article which presumed itself very scientifically focused stating that C# has already had it best moment, but would soon fall into oblivion.


I honestly don't believe that C# is going to die, but .Net probably will. C# is a wonderful, modern language with nice syntax and powerful features, and it would be a shame if another group doesn't pop up to maintain a multi platform version that is similar to Oracle. That's probably the reason why Java has been around so long, really.

#20 e‍dd   Members   -  Reputation: 2105

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:18 PM


I've even read a recent article which presumed itself very scientifically focused stating that C# has already had it best moment, but would soon fall into oblivion.


I honestly don't believe that C# is going to die, [...]

FYI, your quoting seems to have gone funny, there.




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