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A Concern Regarding Operating Systems and Technical Influences


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#21 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5450

Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:17 PM


Apparently, Stormynature & naf456 justified it quite well. I appreciate their responses.


Did you read their responses? Naf's was pretty much as vague as yours, and Stormynature didn't really offer an opinions.

It's not like there's a shortage of things to dislike about windows. Coming up with a list shouldn't be that hard, and then we can have an actual discussion instead of a collective circle jerk of vagueness.


My main issues with Windows are:

1) Poor driver support for some older hardware. (Allthough this is primarily the vendors fault)
2) Annoyingly hard to load unsigned drivers (which makes problem 1 worse)
3) Poor support for multiple monitors. (Ok, i can expand my desktop to cover all monitors or mirror my displays, but why don't i get separate taskbars and taskswitchers, shortcuts to move applications between monitors, and other usability features ?) (There are some really good third party apps for this though but they cost almost as much as the OS itself and it should be a standard feature these days)
4) no solid package manager to speak of, (The add/remove software thingy in the control panel is so insanely slow that its not even funny and it can't be used to actually install software)
5) insanely buggy sleep on my desktop (works great on my laptop though)
6) No HUD.

Unfortunatly similar issues exist on all platforms.i had to switch from Ubuntu 12.04 to Linux Mint since Ubuntu insisted on using an older nvidia driver that was buggy as .... (why the heck would they use a broken display driver in a LTS release for several months after a fixed driver has been released ?)and it didn't make it easy to drop out of X to install a newer driver manually, it was quite a big letdown (i really liked the HUD in Unity though and wish Windows and Mint had something similar),

My problems with Linux Mint right now are:
1) Poor flash performance (annoying if you want to play the more demanding flash games).
2) Graphical glitches with some compiz features. (unfortunatly its the more useful ones such as window tabbing and grouping that are glitchy)
3) I can't get the ssh agent to remember the password for my keys when i open a new terminal, (it works in X but i have to re-enter the password to use my keys from a terminal)
4) No HUD.
5) Slightly buggy sleep/hibernate on my laptop. (havn't tried on the desktop but i'd expect it to fail spectacularly there since Windows struggles with that one)
6) Some of the programs i want to use aren't available and have no really good alternative.

I have no problems with OS X since i don't use Apple products(purely political) but i'm sure it has its share of problems aswell.

Its definitly a problem that Windows is so dominant since it does make the software and driver issues with other platforms harder to overcome (and it is a pain in the ass to find a good, reasonably priced laptop without Windows pre-installed).

as for Win8 i'm not going to judge it until i've used the finished version of it.

Edited by SimonForsman, 20 July 2012 - 01:20 PM.

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#22 samoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4064

Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:58 PM

I really can't understand the rant about the Metro interface. Windows 8 is a dual system in that its Metro shell will be the default layout, but you can run any software that runs on Windows 7 (which is any software that runs on a 32/64-bit Windows system!) in regular desktop mode.

Well, that is only half true. In reality, you must go through Metro to get to the desktop at all, no choice (this includes when e.g. the screensaver locks you out), and the desktop has been heftily stripped down (on purpose, of course). There is no such thing as a start menu any more, so you have to manually add your programs to the task bar, which is both tedious and non-practical if you have more than 6-8 programs installed. You also cannot do basic things such as log out or reboot from the desktop interface without going through Metro. A simple task as opening a shell is an ordeal now (if you haven't pinned the shell to the taskbar, again, manually).
Process Explorer won't work seamlessy any more as it would in all previous versions, at least it doesn't on my Win8 Consumer Preview install.
That said "the going through Metro" bit is a nightmare by itself because you have to do some totally unintuitive drag gesture for that.

Insofar, while the "this was done by a bunch of losers" argument is not entirely true, one can at least say "was done without desktop computers in mind" with full justification. Of course that's just what is intended, too.

But, regardless of how much one whines, Windows 8 will come. People will buy it, people will use it. A few of them will whine too, but they will still buy it. And if you ask why, it's simply because there is no alternative.

As bad as Windows is (and I wholeheartedly agree that ever since Windows XP, which was truly good at its time, every new version only became slower, more bloated, and worse overall) it is still the best operating system available.

Linux, sad as it is, just doesn't cut it. Linux is great for running a webserver or a SQL server, it's awesome as firmware for my router and for my video recorder, but as a desktop operating system, it's totally unusable and non-competitive. That isn't even solely the fault of Linux but also the fault of third party manufacturers... but it really doesn't matter whose fault it is.

Also, most distros are going the Gnome-3 / Unity way anyway, which is just the same as Metro. The only kind-of-usable distro that I know to date is Debian-LXDE, and half of the stuff is broken there.

Now inevitably someone will come up with "you know, you need not use Debian, you can build your own cool gentoo box just like you want". That's great if you have nothing better to do than play with your computer all day, but as a "real" desktop system, it just doesn't do. Especially if time is money, it doesn't do.
What you need is "insert disk, press install", and at 15 minutes later it has to work, reliably, and the same on all computers, regardless of what kind of keyboard or 6-dof device you plug in. I'm not going to manually partition or edit an init script in vi, guys... it's not the 1980s any more!

Something like Ubuntu, before some genius thought that Unity was the best idea since sliced bread would be competitve. In fact, had they just left Ubuntu like it was two years ago (with a newer kernel and new drivers), it might have become a real alternative to Windows 8.

Edited by samoth, 20 July 2012 - 01:58 PM.


#23 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1712

Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:20 PM

As bad as Windows is (and I wholeheartedly agree that ever since Windows XP, which was truly good at its time, every new version only became slower, more bloated, and worse overall) it is still the best operating system available.


lolwut? Windows 7 is faster, and more efficient than Vista, and Windows 8 is faster and more efficient than Windows 7. There are some UI decisions that I don't agree with in Windows 8, but overall it's a better operating system than Windows 7, especially under the hood.

#24 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 778

Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:34 PM

3) Poor support for multiple monitors. (Ok, i can expand my desktop to cover all monitors or mirror my displays, but why don't i get separate taskbars and taskswitchers, shortcuts to move applications between monitors, and other usability features ?) (There are some really good third party apps for this though but they cost almost as much as the OS itself and it should be a standard feature these days)

Multiple monitors have a lot of new features in windows 8. Multiple taskbars is one of them :)

5) insanely buggy sleep on my desktop (works great on my laptop though)

To my knowledge the sleep/hybernate stuff is totally different in 8, so no saying how this will be affected without having messed with a device running it :/

Well, that is only half true. In reality, you must go through Metro to get to the desktop at all, no choice (this includes when e.g. the screensaver locks you out), and the desktop has been heftily stripped down (on purpose, of course).

I thought there was an option to launch to the desktop?

There is no such thing as a start menu any more, so you have to manually add your programs to the task bar, which is both tedious and non-practical if you have more than 6-8 programs installed.

There isn't a start menu, but the windows 7 start functionality is mostly there, it just doesn't have a button. From the desktop just start typing the name of the program you want and it will open up the search window. From there you can right click the app and pin to taskbar.

You also cannot do basic things such as log out or reboot from the desktop interface without going through Metro. A simple task as opening a shell is an ordeal now (if you haven't pinned the shell to the taskbar, again, manually).

You can do that on the desktop, it's just in the charms bar instead of in the start menu.

I think mostly it's just growing pains atm. It's a very different way to interact with windows even if you stick to the desktop experience. Probably the hardest thing is that each option doesn't have some corresponding visual element as the 'hot corners' are all off the screen until you mouse/touch over the edges.

#25 naf456   Members   -  Reputation: 133

Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:30 PM

I think we should go back to the roots of the thread.

I suppose the point was - why are operating systems so slow and unoptimized? - why are programmers so lazy and uncaring about the software they write ?
This is evident with the comparison between a Commodore 64 and Windows Computer -
A Commodore 64 can display a whole video game in 64k while windows can bearly display "Hello world" on the screen.

And it ain't just Windows...

What I hate about Windows? it's just in general slowwer then linux - ubuntu is alot more snappy and reliable - you don't have Norton360 constantly f***ing your filesystem to find any viruses - I don't have to wait seconds for windows to find my directories on linux - they display instantly - I love the EXT3 filesystem and how flexable and fast it is in comparison to NTFS - I love BASH to the grave - I can run the programs I love without the aid of cygwin.
I have G++ and NASM and GCC and GLIBc ... I have the aid of all the great communities of linux - nobody hates linux - linux IS the community - you design what YOU like (not what MS likes). you use the API's YOU want - you get the source code to many projects , and learn from some of the best programmers in the world.
I'm not saying you can't with windows - it's just... Linux is a community - Windows is a Company.
Bitches VS Friends - I know which side I'd choose...

And yes - it does matter what GUI your platform is running - GUI is the only interface your users have to your program (unless it's a daemon/service or console application) - bad GUI - bad experince - bad application... Less profits....

Windows won't last forever. like someone said - Darwin - Survival of the fitest - Windows is losing users and programers and linux is repeaing in the limelight, due to the steep access you need to own a Macintosh system (seriously - Apple has lost there mojo with Mac).
I read an article about a year ago about how Linux development has boosted and will soon out grow Windows developement.

Once Linux has a decent attraction for general purpose users, it won't be long until companies by the likes of Dell and HP will start deploying linux to various of there platforms (Dell has already done so before...).
Somehow, I think Google will drive the spear...

Edited by naf456, 20 July 2012 - 05:34 PM.

Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.
—Will Rogers

#26 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5450

Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:36 PM


3) Poor support for multiple monitors. (Ok, i can expand my desktop to cover all monitors or mirror my displays, but why don't i get separate taskbars and taskswitchers, shortcuts to move applications between monitors, and other usability features ?) (There are some really good third party apps for this though but they cost almost as much as the OS itself and it should be a standard feature these days)

Multiple monitors have a lot of new features in windows 8. Multiple taskbars is one of them Posted Image

5) insanely buggy sleep on my desktop (works great on my laptop though)

To my knowledge the sleep/hybernate stuff is totally different in 8, so no saying how this will be affected without having messed with a device running it :/


Will those taskbars automatically contain the applications that are on that taskbars monitor ? , i basically want what i got in Linux, 1 taskbar per monitor, alt tab switching between windows on the current monitor(whicheverone the currently focused app is on) and meta-tab to switch between windows on visible desktops and possibly a key that can switch to windows on non visible desktops (I'm using VistaSwitcher now whenever i have to use Windows so its not that bad)
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#27 naf456   Members   -  Reputation: 133

Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:39 PM

To add just another note - Windows was built from the ground up to look pretty for the consumer market.... Linux was built from the ground up to get S*** done.
if you were a good programmer you would notice the difference.
Windows API's is over complicated and slow.
Linux development is easy to understand and fast.

"Hahaha - you can't make a Processor go faster ,young padawan, but you can however make it do less..." - just throw that in there to (microsoft style... ;D)

Edited by naf456, 20 July 2012 - 05:40 PM.

Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.
—Will Rogers

#28 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 5712

Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:59 PM

I read an article about a year ago about how Linux development has boosted and will soon out grow Windows developement.


Yep, this year is the year of the linux desktop... oh... wait, this isn't 1998... or 1999.... or 2000.... or 2001....

#29 naf456   Members   -  Reputation: 133

Posted 20 July 2012 - 06:20 PM

What does the above post actually add? oh, right...nothing....


Like Windows? good for you... all I know is Microsoft is failing.
I have got a WP7 mobile - frankly it sucks - has very little growth in comparison to Android (**Cough**Linux**Cough**) or iOS(**Cough** UNIX **Cough**)

I have also tried windows 8 - very good, you get use to the metro UI , although I prefer the out and through PC OS - instead of a tablet/PC hyrid - look like your stuck with that for another, what 5/6 years? good luck with that.

EDIT:

And Whats gets me, the CEO of microsoft gets a failing platform (WP7) - takes it's concept and applies it to their flagship product! what an idiot! didn't anyone tell him! no one wants metro! (apart from the 13year old microsoft fanboys and girls.)

Edited by naf456, 20 July 2012 - 06:25 PM.

Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.
—Will Rogers

#30 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 5712

Posted 20 July 2012 - 06:32 PM

My post - the history of linux on the desktop and the constant promise of 'linux taking over'.

Your post - some drivel about linux taking over

We are both probably contributing about the same amount; at least I have the common decency to keep my post short and without a pointless signature.

#31 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1712

Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:21 PM

To add just another note - Windows was built from the ground up to look pretty for the consumer market.... Linux was built from the ground up to get S*** done.
if you were a good programmer you would notice the difference.
Windows API's is over complicated and slow.
Linux development is easy to understand and fast.

"Hahaha - you can't make a Processor go faster ,young padawan, but you can however make it do less..." - just throw that in there to (microsoft style... ;D)


Not sure if you're a troll, or just ignorant. My vote is on the latter. Anyone who can say with a straight face that that Linux development is easier than Windows development hasn't done one or the other. Building a GUI application with WPF and building a game with XNA on Windows are much, much easier than building their counterparts on either Linux or OS X. The same is true of mobile development. The tools and environment for WP7 development is far more accessible than Android and iOS.

#32 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2543

Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:56 PM

Yes. Close it.


+1

The context of this thread is being argued by multiple people with differing levels of skill and knowledge in a very technical answer through their own perspectives. This is not to denigrate anyone's skill set mind you. Each person has their own set of experiences and viewpoints but I don't really see much common ground being established or for that matter real discussion happening between both sides that leads to agreement or even a civil "well we shall have to agree to disagree. At best, without pointing fingers it seems to bounce between addressing technical issues and WTF are you smoking? The only truth I can take from this entire thread is that all the operating systems available atm have issues which are annoying to the user which is all and good but doesn't get beyond a cyclical argument that progresses nowhere.

I should point out this post is from my non-tech perspective.

#33 kunos   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1769

Posted 20 July 2012 - 10:58 PM

Linux was built from the ground up to get S*** done.


So... what kind of shit are you doing on linux exactly? Beside attempting to troll (and being pretty bad at it) on a forum of course?
One of the reasons nobody will take linux seriously is useless trolls like you storming the forums. You, as the OP, stop embarrassing yourselves, what's the attraction in being considered stupid? Beats me.
Stefano Casillo
Lead Programmer
TWITTER: @KunosStefano
AssettoCorsa - netKar PRO - Kunos Simulazioni

#34 naf456   Members   -  Reputation: 133

Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:00 AM

Yeah alright, little bit of a troll.

Linux is just soo much unbelievably faster then windows, it's unreal.
Again saying that, nothing is much slower either...
Trolling? Proof? Mac , Linux - my G4 powermac boots and launches photoshop faster then my PC gets to the login screen.

Anyway... All I know is if It has "Made by MICROSOFT" printed on it - it's usually terrible :
Windows Mobile - terrible
Windows Phone 7 - terrible
Windows Azure - look pretty good actually
Windows 8 - terrible
Hotmail - terrible.
Silverlight - Used to like that, but has been discontinued.
Xbox - Best thing they've done. Microsoft will ruin it , I'm sure of it.

And plus XNA really all that good? - tried it but the projects that come out of it seem very 'weekend'y - and I know a lot of these people spend months on them.

Trolling? Hmm...maybe - actually yes, trolling. But you can't say that I'm not right - I am right.



Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.
—Will Rogers

#35 naf456   Members   -  Reputation: 133

Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:07 AM

And Kunos - get some Fucking balls. No one gives a shit about Trolls or fangirls.

I'm pretty bad a trolling? your fucking terrible at insulting people.

Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.
—Will Rogers

#36 naf456   Members   -  Reputation: 133

Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:09 AM

Ugh, I really can't be assed...

Closed the thread, and delete me as a member. - I really hate wasting time.
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.
—Will Rogers

#37 rip-off   Moderators   -  Reputation: 6864

Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:29 AM

I believe we have covered enough new ground for one thread...




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