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Is Windows 8 really bad for games?


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#41 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 15 August 2012 - 09:04 AM

Large Company does something illegal, profits immensely (or else ensures a competitor doesn't profit).
Governments step in, punish Large Company with a huge fine.
Large Company still gets to reap the benefits of what it did, because the competitor is defeated, or because the indirect benefits of it's actions is worth more than the cost of the governmental fine.
Large Company lays low for a few years.
Large Company does something else illegal.

This is oversimplifying that case quite a bit, and despite the cases findings it's been hotly disputed by economists. Putting aside that a large cornerstone of the case was that internet speeds at the time were prohibitively slow to download another web browser/application, which is no longer the case.

The problem is that you are assuming that monopolies are illegal, which is false. Abusing monopoly power is illegal, but there are many monopolies in the US. Local power companies are a good example.

In this case Microsoft is giving away a product that consumers want included in their operating system for free. They are not disallowing others to be installed. US Anti-trust law is designed to protect consumers from monopolies, not to protect businesses from them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act

The purpose of the Act was, to quote Sherman:
"To protect the consumers by preventing arrangements designed, or which tend, to advance the cost of goods to the consumer"


The US supreme court says this on the Sherman Antitrust Act

"The purpose of the [Sherman] Act is not to protect businesses from the working of the market; it is to protect the public from the failure of the market. The law directs itself not against conduct which is competitive, even severely so, but against conduct which unfairly tends to destroy competition itself.[7] This focus of U.S. competition law, on protection of competition rather than competitors, is not necessarily the only possible focus or purpose of competition law. For example, it has also been said that competition law in the European Union (EU) tends to protect the competitors in the marketplace, even at the expense of market efficiencies and consumers."



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#42 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6033

Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:47 AM

you are talking about the microsoft PL license. IE is multi-licensed, the EULA that comes with it for windows only show the PL license because that are the one you use on windows. if you have ubunto, search synaptic for Internet Explorer. last time I checked, it was there, published by microsoft.


There is no internet explorer package in Ubuntu, There is the IEs4Linux(not published by Microsoft, it is a third party wine script which lets you install IE versions up to 7) package in the universe repository but that requires a valid Windows license for each machine you use it on. (It is up to the user to ensure compliance)
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#43 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4688

Posted 15 August 2012 - 11:30 AM

If Windows 9 becomes Metro-only how will that affect software like Steam? Doesn't that pretty much forcefully remove them from competition altogether?
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#44 Mito   Members   -  Reputation: 833

Posted 15 August 2012 - 12:06 PM

If Windows 9 becomes Metro-only how will that affect software like Steam? Doesn't that pretty much forcefully remove them from competition altogether?


no, they will just adapt. period.

screw this shit, we already stoped in time because of this fear of change.

I admire the attitude microsoft risky they are taking to change the core of their system. Windows 8 is faster, more intuitive and more fun to use. steam is slow and ugly. I want that to change. I want that interface to be perfected. Valve will only do this if required.

#45 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 15 August 2012 - 12:08 PM

If Windows 9 becomes Metro-only how will that affect software like Steam? Doesn't that pretty much forcefully remove them from competition altogether?


You really think Microsoft is going to kill off legacy app support for their primary OS? That would likely be the one thing they could do to give up significant desktop market share.

#46 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 18462

Posted 15 August 2012 - 12:51 PM


They already have been offering something better than Microsoft. Microsoft has already had digital stores available that failed, because Microsoft wasn't offering something better. So instead of offering better quality (competition), Microsoft abuses it's power in an illegal way (product tying).


if they already offer something better, then don't complain.

Have you read the thread? I'm not complaining that Microsoft is offering something worse or better, I'm complaining that they are abusing their position in a questionably legal way.

My complaint is: "Steam, and other companies, are offering better products. Microsoft can't compete in quality, because all their attempts failed. Instead of competing, they are abusing their position as the platform holder to gain the lion's share of customers, which harms competition instead of helping it."

I said, "Steam offers a better product, Microsoft is doing something that I think is borderline illegal according to the laws of this country, and harmful to the developers and consumers (and I explained why I think that)".
You said: "It benefits developers, stop complaining, Steam just needs to make a better product."
I said: "Steam already has a better product."
You said: "Then stop complaining"

Clearly you don't get what I'm complaining about: They are doing something that might be illegal (there's no hard and fast laws here, because it depends on the size of the company and is open to the interpretations of judges) to reduce competition, because they thus far hasn't been able to compete through quality.

there's no abuse of power here, just a app store. just because their system is the most used they don't have the rights to create a store and ship it on the system?

Yes. Just because they control the vast vast majority of the market, their actions have a much greater effect on the market, and the government has special regulations for companies with that much sway.

[the microsoft lawsuit was because microsoft have took action to ensure that netscape won't function properly on windows. that is unfair competition.

That wasn't the only reason for the lawsuit. Another reason was the bundling of IE with Windows itself, not just the API that favored Internet Explorer.

steam whants to compete? make exclusivity deals, maintain better prices, maintain it's promotions.

Steam has been competing, they have had the best prices and the best promotions (and innovation). If Microsoft's Windows Store takes the consumers anyway, despite Steam being better in every way, then that means that competition through quality, pricing, and promotion, is pointless because the customers are all using the Windows Store - thus harming the competition, not helping it.

This is my whole point. Steam is very competitive, through the normal methods of competition, and they are rightly benefiting from it. If Microsoft comes along and takes the consumers without better pricing, promotions, innovation, and quality of service, then it makes Steam's and Origin's and every other store's competition pointless.

as for the website for your games, how many games for iOS or android have websites? you don't need it. it's a plus, but you don't need it unless you are making a AAA game.

But your argument was, "If you are on the Windows Store, you save the cost of having to make a website". That's not true. You don't need a website, but being on the Windows Store doesn't save the cost of a website anymore than the app store or Steam does.

someone said the Xbox live is only used because it's the only option, well, i know (as in "i see every day and chat with") at least 10 people that choose XBox insted of PS3 just because of the live.

You're mixing two different things. XBox Live (as in the entire online system) contains Xbox Live Arcade (the digital store). If another company had a digital store on the XBox 360, to compete with XBox Live Arcade it'd have to offer: Better prices, more/better games, better promotions, and better interfaces and features... which would in turn force XBox Live Arcade to upgrade itself, and the other store would upgrade itself, creating better stores overall for the consumer.

Steam has a much unfair competition and doesn't complain. they compete with pirates and they are winning.

That is a whole conversation in itself, and isn't really relevant to the current discussion.

i don't understand any of you, it's just unfair competition because it's microsoft. and don't start again with market shares, because in any other industry, this doesn't matter.

In every other industry competition does matter. In some other industries there isn't competition, but that doesn't mean competition wouldn't improve things.
Competition almost always improves things for the consumer, if the government A) Doesn't intrude on a regular basis B) Does get involved when a company steps across the line C) Encourages (through tax breaks) standardization and cross-compatibility.

Companies need to be large enough that economies of scale cut the cost, but not so large that they push out all the competition and stop innovating.
(I'm neither big business nor big government nor communistic Posted Image)

 

Putting aside that a large cornerstone of the case was that internet speeds at the time were prohibitively slow to download another web browser/application, which is no longer the case.

That's a good point. On the other hand, now we have things like this:
Posted Image

And then the actual installation and patching time for Steam, and not to mention having to know it even exists.

The problem is that you are assuming that monopolies are illegal, which is false. Abusing monopoly power is illegal, but there are many monopolies in the US. Local power companies are a good example

I know monopolies aren't illegal. Microsoft is a monopoly (maybe less so now, with Google and Apple catching up). Microsoft bundling IE with Windows was (possibly!) an abuse of that monopoly. Microsoft bundling Windows Store with Windows is (possibly! maybe! debatably!) an abuse of that monopoly - it's whether or not it actually is an abuse of power and position that I'm arguing about. I most likely am wrong, and hopefully it won't crush the higher-quality competitors... but if I'm going to talk about it with other intelligent developers on this forum, I'd rather do so before the competition gets crushed or fails to be crushed, so I can at least have bragging rights if I'm correct. Posted Image

US Anti-trust law is designed to protect consumers from monopolies, not to protect businesses from them.

Interesting, I didn't know that - I thought it was meant for both. Posted Image
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#47 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:14 PM

Posted Image

That is entirely Steam's fault. All they have to do is get a countersigned certificate for their installer and that goes away. Basically that's saying that a company has to prove who they are through a CA in order to bypass the security warning. I'm not seeing a problem with this as it's much better than what OSX has done in Mountain Lion.

Posted Image

Notice there is nothing which tells you how to change your security settings and by default there is no option to override this dialog.

#48 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 18462

Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:49 PM

That is entirely Steam's fault. All they have to do is get a countersigned certificate for their installer and that goes away. Basically that's saying that a company has to prove who they are through a CA in order to bypass the security warning.

Ah, pardon my ignorance - I didn't realize there was a way for Valve to make that warning go away.
It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God.
Of Stranger Flames - [indie turn-based rpg set in a para-historical French colony] | Indie RPG development journal

[Fly with me on Twitter] [Google+] [My broken website]

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#49 Heath   Members   -  Reputation: 344

Posted 15 August 2012 - 07:46 PM

Companies need to be large enough that economies of scale cut the cost, but not so large that they push out all the competition and stop innovating.
(I'm neither big business nor big government nor communistic)

[...]

I know monopolies aren't illegal. Microsoft is a monopoly (maybe less so now, with Google and Apple catching up). Microsoft bundling IE with Windows was (possibly!) an abuse of that monopoly. Microsoft bundling Windows Store with Windows is (possibly! maybe! debatably!) an abuse of that monopoly - it's whether or not it actually is an abuse of power and position that I'm arguing about.

Good enough way to remember it, I suppose. I use Linux, or at least I like to, and this whole app store debate is directing my eyes towards every distro's equivalent "Software Center" and underlying management system, whether it's apt-get or portage or rpm or whatever.

Sure, I could knowingly compile and install a program without using apt-get on Ubuntu. But why would I want to do that, if the very same program is available there? But for argument's sake, I still could do it.

Maybe, just maybe this is apples to oranges, so to speak, but I can't imagine having such an app store thing pre-installed and not using it, unless it just wasn't very good. (edit: And I do remember having that Games for Windows Live thing on my desktop a while back. Never used it, installed Steam instead. ;) )

Edited by Heath, 15 August 2012 - 07:49 PM.


#50 Mito   Members   -  Reputation: 833

Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:06 AM

Sorry but i won't botter in quoting every single part of your post i want to reply, so i will only quote this one, but reply to it as a whole.

And then the actual installation and patching time for Steam, and not to mention having to know it even exists.



This is Valve fault. I'm a software developer, so i know they can speed up this crap if they whant. what you don't realise is that Steam has no competition. Origin a competition to Steam? how many people like Origin? I've seen many complaining and none defending. in this thread, how many times steam was mentioned and how many times origin was? Steam already has no competition.

I think Steam's GUI is just crap. yes, crap. it's painfull slow. they can speed that but they don't care.

you said Microsoft has 90% of the market share, but how many of those costumers are gammers? and how many of those gammers are already Steam custumers?

And why you care? if microsoft show you better deals and don't impose the burden of having to run steam on the background while i play, then valve better catch up.

it's not unfair competition, it's competition. Games for Windows Live has been there for ages. if it doesn't offer nothing better, it won't be used by gammers, but the real magic of this store is other software. all of that software in one place will really make my life and the life of many other people much easier.

#51 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 18462

Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:40 AM

I think Steam's GUI is just crap. yes, crap. it's painfull slow. they can speed that but they don't care.
This is Valve fault. I'm a software developer, so i know they can speed up this crap if they whant. what you don't realise is that Steam has no competition.

This is a game development forum, mate. We're all software developers (with a few exceptions). It's definitely something they can and should improve - part of the delay being that most of it is web pages in disguise.

However, frequently it starts up fast - it's just during peak hours, so they probably need to add more and better servers - something more competition will definitely help.
For increased download speeds, they ought to integrate some sort of distributed torrent-like download system if they don't already.

Origin a competition to Steam? how many people like Origin? I've seen many complaining and none defending. in this thread, how many times steam was mentioned and how many times origin was? Steam already has no competition.

Steam is by far the digital store winner, in the same way Microsoft is by far the desktop OS winner. But Origin is only a year old, and already has +9 million accounts (though how many are active accounts is another matter - Mass Effect 3, Battlefield 3, Crysis 2 originally required Origin to be installed or were Origin exclusive, iirc).

Impulse is also a real competitor - and Impulse has a loyal community (or had, I don't know how it's buyout effected the userbase), and an estimated (in 2009) 10% of the market. It probably has at least 3 million users - maybe even 5 million, but that's a guess on my part - in 2009 it had over a million.

you said Microsoft has 90% of the market share, but how many of those costumers are gammers?

Hard to find numbers, but their competitor 'Impulse' estimated that Steam had 70% of the digital market, back in 2009. Since that time, Impulse has been sold to GameStop, EA launched Origin, and Desura was launched, and I'm sure a dozen small fish probably were created as well.

I never was arguing that Steam isn't large, and I'm not arguing for less competition for Steam. Steam needs more competition, for sure! But fair competition.

and how many of those gammers are already Steam custumers?

54 million PC games estimated (probably underestimated - some estimate over 100 million) vs 40-50 million or more Steam users - 75% max, maybe lower.

And why you care? if microsoft show you better deals and don't impose the burden of having to run steam on the background while i play, then valve better catch up.

I've told you why I cared several times already: Short term benefits of a mainstream Microsoft dominance does not outweigh the long term benefits of real competition that forces innovation.

it's not unfair competition, it's competition. Games for Windows Live has been there for ages. if it doesn't offer nothing better, it won't be used by gammers, but the real magic of this store is other software. all of that software in one place will really make my life and the life of many other people much easier.

The 'real magic' of this store is what Impulse has been offering since 2001 (previously named StarDock Central)? Amazon.com does it also. Want to buy a digital copy of Microsoft Office? Amazon.com has that.
Other stores will offer more and more of that - Steam is offering it soon. If that's the only thing that puts Windows Store ahead of the other options, fine.
I'm all for Microsoft selling digital software - and they have for years. I'm fine with them innovating and improving their services to become more competitive, I'm just not fine with them doing something that courts have all-but deemed to be abusive in the past.

Once more: I am not complaining about competition - competition is good. I am complaining about a possible abuse of power, hindering competition, that reduces benefits and growth of industry, affecting consumers with a lack of benefits/features/services they otherwise would've had. The consumer is not going to lose anything they already have by Microsoft gaining dominance unfairly, but they will lose what they could've gained for free (better services and better deals) if real competition continued.

If it turns out that Windows Store doesn't slaughter all the competition, no harm done. If it does gain 85% or more of the market, I think we might lose out over the next 5 years with slower growth of features and benefits in digital services.

There is one benefit of the Windows Store that benefits the whole digital sales market: It widens the market to much more consumers, making it more mainstream and everyone benefiting. Hopefully it forces the the United States ISPs improve our poor networks as well (upstream and downstream).

Edited by Servant of the Lord, 16 August 2012 - 10:45 AM.

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#52 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:12 PM


I think Steam's GUI is just crap. yes, crap. it's painfull slow. they can speed that but they don't care.
This is Valve fault. I'm a software developer, so i know they can speed up this crap if they whant. what you don't realise is that Steam has no competition.

This is a game development forum, mate. We're all software developers (with a few exceptions). It's definitely something they can and should improve - part of the delay being that most of it is web pages in disguise.


I actually really like this approach and I'm doing it on a couple of my projects. It enables you to customize the UI much more easily than if you were writing it in Qt or some other cross platform gui framework. I don't know how their system is setup, but it seems like they could do a better job of caching pages locally which would enable the UI to be as responsive as a true local app.

#53 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 18462

Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:46 PM

Yeah, it's a nice idea and can work well. I especially like it's usability for patching/version notes or news for games. Minecraft and others do that: Minecraft updater
It's also nice even for in-game GUIs, as the Wolfire guy shows: [1] [2] [3].

You do have to overcome the slowness of it compared to other methods, though - but it's definitely doable.
 
Since it's related to this thread: Ubisoft launches it's own digital store: uPlay

This is really good, the more competition the better. Just so long as every publisher doesn't start going exclusive to their own stores, and a consumer has to register and install three different stores to be happy. I guess there are pros and cons to everything. Posted Image

That article also gives some numbers, though with Steam the numbers mean, "People who buy games from our service", and with the others it means, "People who one time played one of our games and gave us their email".
"35 million registered Uplay members across various platforms"
"Origin has 21 million registered users across Windows and iOS"
"Steam has 40 million users on PC and Mac"

Edited by Servant of the Lord, 16 August 2012 - 03:51 PM.

It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God.
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[Fly with me on Twitter] [Google+] [My broken website]

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#54 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4688

Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:57 PM

Supposedly Surface RT is going to cost $199. This may be a game changer.
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#55 ddn3   Members   -  Reputation: 1269

Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:09 PM

Microsoft wants to build an appstore, it's not unreasonable since several appstores exist now (MacStore, iDevices AppStore, Android AppStore, WebStore, Amazon Appstore, etc..) and they do provide added value from the consumer and content creator standpoint, but on the PC its open and large enough that several appstores will dominate, Steam, Origin, Windows Appstore etc.. they already charge service fees and are selective about the app they host (no adult content, racism, etc..).. These companies are taking the place of what "publishers" use too do. With the advent of digital distribution, traditional publishers are going extinct and these platform owners are building their own monetization channels.

Overall it's good for the consumer and creators since traditional publishers take much more than 30% of the revenue and also sometimes ownership of the IP and maybe even exclusivity rights. Since they hold all the power but now, why would you do that when u can sell through the Appstores world wide channel and only give 30% cut and keep your IP? It's just the march of progress.

#56 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4688

Posted 19 September 2012 - 12:44 PM

So has anyone gotten brushed up on their Metro programming skillz?
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