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It's official: western citizen granted asylum from western tyrants


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#1 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 30889

Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:52 AM

So, an Australian journalist, subject to a smear campaign, has just been granted asylum to protect him from a conspiracy by the United States to persecute/imprison/kill him for his publications. This is a freaking huge event. It's just become official that the US, the UK, Sweden and Australia are, within reasonable doubt, working together to fight against Freedom Of Information, Freedom Of Speech and governmental transparency. This is freaking huge... Shit just got real.

Meanwhile, the UK has threatened to violate the Vienna convention in order to counter this grant of asylum, under orders from the US.

How is this being reported in your country? Who is the bad guy, according to your TV?

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#2 Amadeus H   Members   -  Reputation: 1180

Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:12 AM

Here in Sweden we're pretty convinced he should be put on trial for rape. He's got nothing to hide... right?

#3 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1669

Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:13 AM

1: - Lets see how much you like if is some one puts YOUR life, and the lives of YOUR family in danger in the name of "freedom of information".
2: - The UK has the right to invade the embassy, under international law, if they harbor known criminals.
3: - The guy is avoiding RAPE CHARGES in another country.
4: - I'm sure international drug cartels, terrorists, and criminals in general would love to know how the government(s) are trying to stop them, and who the informants are.

Edited by Shippou, 16 August 2012 - 07:34 AM.

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#4 patrrr   Members   -  Reputation: 1027

Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:17 AM

There's one thing I'm not getting. Why couldn't he had been extradited from the UK? Surely they have closer ties with the US.

Edited by patrrr, 16 August 2012 - 07:24 AM.


#5 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 30889

Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:38 AM

Ok, I take it that means that your media is firmly showing Assange as the bad guy here. What countries are you in patrrr and Shippou?

Here in Sweden we're pretty convinced he should be put on trial for rape. He's got nothing to hide... right?

He has agreed to go to Sweden, as long as they make a statement saying they will not pass him on to the US, or if the US states that they are not going to try him for espionage. They refused. If they've got nothing to hide (other than rape charges), why not make a statement?
According to the (non-american-owned) reporting here, he's only wanted for questioning (not trial) over "rape". And that it's not even "rape" as in "forced sex acts", but a weird Swedish law that allows adult consensual-sex to be deemed inappropriate after the fact (such as having sex with a minor - it's not ok even when consensual) -- where the prosecutor has decided that the women's consent at the time was obtained through "inappropriate seduction" and that because it was a short-term relationship, they should have used a condom, therefore it is "rape". Are your papers not reporting this?
Are they also not reporting that Assange did present himself to the Swedish police for questioning, but they told him he could freely leave the country because there was no crime committed, and that the case was reopened after political pressure from Claes Borgström? Or that the two woman were friendly with him after the "rapes", and that they refused to sign a witness statement saying that they had been raped? Or that Swedish police routinely travel overseas to question suspects, but have refused repeated requests to question Assange overseas? Or that they demanded an extemely rare "red notice" interpol warrant, for a 'rape' case (even Muammar Gaddafi only had an "orange notice")?
It's pretty rare to find someone here who believes he's a rapist, or that the "rape" allegations are legit.

1: - Lets see how much you like if is some one puts YOUR life, and the lives of YOUR family in danger all due to your job being secretive.
2: - The UK has the right to invade the embassy, under international law if they harbor known criminals.
3: - The guy is avoiding RAPE CHARGES in another country
4: - I'm sure international drug cartels, terrorists, and criminals in general would love to know how the government(s) are trying to stop them, and who the informants are.

3 - see above, or watch the documentary linked in the OP. He's wanted for questioning over having non-violent, consensual sex without a condom.

2 - No, the Vienna convention protects embassies from any unwanted intrusion by police. When criminals in the Lybian embassy alledgedly assassinated a UK policewoman, the UK surrounded the building, but could not enter. They ended up letting the killers leave the country - as this legal protection also extends to embassy vehicles. Not even countries like China have ever violated this convention. It will be an immensely huge even if the UK does storm the embassy to arrest him, criminal or not. It will be the first time this convention has been broken, and it will put at risk the lives of all UK diplomats/spies overseas!
Is the media that you listen to really reporting that the UK does have this right? Where did you get this idea?

1 - That's why Bradley Manning is being tortured while awaiting trial, right - he's the one that allegedly stole the documents? This is also why Wikileaks asked for the US government's help in redacting the files before publishing them, but had to do it themselves after the US refused to help redact sensitive life-and-death information. The New York times also published Manning's stolen files -- are they being painted as a bad guy by your media? Also, the US government was forced to admit that they haven't yet found a case where these documents have resulted in anyone coming to harm...
As a side note -- when the Bush administration decided to leak life-and-death secrets for political gain, like the names of CIA operatives abroad, there were no serious consequences: the few that were jailed (for contempt, not leaking) had their jail sentences overturned by Bush's executive power.

4 - Sensitive names are redacted in the cables. Go read some yourself. The same cables are published by the New York Times, The Guardian, Wikileaks and others -- if you've got a beef with the cables being made public, that's with Manning, not Assange. Or if it is with Assange, it's also with the Times, et al.

There's one thing I'm not getting. Why couldn't he had been extradited from the UK? Surely they have closer ties with the US.

If he's being extradited for seemingly political reasons, such as publishing US secrets, he can appeal to the European Human Rights court.
Once he's in Sweden, he doesn't need to be "extradited" to the USA -- they have a law that allows for "prisoner exchanges" that don't count as extraditions. As soon as Sweden puts him on remand awaiting trial, then as long as the USA promises to return him to Sweden after they're done with him then they can take him and he cannot appeal or ask the EU/UN to intervene.

Edited by Hodgman, 16 August 2012 - 08:10 AM.


#6 Orymus3   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 9915

Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:42 AM

Funnily enough, most people I talked to about this had no clue this was happening.
So what I told them is "I'm not telling you what side to be on, but I think its one of those things you should give a damn about and forge yourself an opinion".

Craig Murray makes a compelling argument that the Vienna convention hasn't been breached by any major player even during the direst Crisis. If it should fall, its gonna hurt.

My opnion is this: At this stage, I don't really care about the man, what he did, what he represents, I'm mostly scared/intrigued to see how it plays out and the impact its going to have globally.

#7 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1669

Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:57 AM

@ Hodgman

"My Media" .... The US doesn't have 1 or 2 media outlets, so I can literally get any side of the story I wish from thousands of sources ... though I never bother paying attention to political drama any more.

 Reactions To Technologies:
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#8 BeanDog   Members   -  Reputation: 1063

Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:10 AM

That's funny. I thought we'd gotten the idea that the US had abandoned its high ground a long time ago. Torture, indefinite imprisonment without charges, even kill orders on American citizens without charges... This is sad, but not even the least bit surprising. At least I still feel reasonably safe airing these ideas in public, without any effort to hide my identity. That may not always be the case here in the US.

~BenDilts( void );

Lucidchart: Online Flow Chart Software; Lucidpress: Digital Publishing Software


#9 FLeBlanc   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3109

Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:16 AM

... though I never bother paying attention to political drama any more.


This is actually kind of a big part of the problem, right here. I don't know the truth regarding Assange one way or the other, but the thing is, from where I sit it seems as if we are letting certain people act with impunity and do whatever the hell they want, simply because we as a nation can't be arsed to pay attention, give issues the proper impartial coverage they require, or hold those certain people accountable for their actions. We, simply, don't give a shit, and giving a shit is the only way that the rules of due process and the preservation of civil rights and liberties will be fairly observed by those in power.

Please, people, start giving a shit.

#10 Dwarf King   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1882

Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:17 AM

Well I have noticed that this man and his wikileaks often leak US/western secrets but not Russian/eastern knowledge/secrects. How come? I mean why not treat all nations like this and leak all of it? Also I really think he should go to court if he is innoncent and get his name cleared. Sweden is not famous for being unfair when it comes to court and justice. It should be save.

Just my two cents... However, I do find this accussation rather convenient for govs who would like to punish him for hurting their diplomacy.

Edited by Dwarf King, 16 August 2012 - 08:27 AM.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education"

Albert Einstein

"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education"

Albert Einstein

 


#11 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1669

Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:30 AM


... though I never bother paying attention to political drama any more.


This is actually kind of a big part of the problem, right here. I don't know the truth regarding Assange one way or the other, but the thing is, from where I sit it seems as if we are letting certain people act with impunity and do whatever the hell they want, simply because we as a nation can't be arsed to pay attention, give issues the proper impartial coverage they require, or hold those certain people accountable for their actions. We, simply, don't give a shit, and giving a shit is the only way that the rules of due process and the preservation of civil rights and liberties will be fairly observed by those in power.

Please, people, start giving a shit.


Name something that can be done, that actually WORKS .

Voting? - Nope, both parties don't care about anything but power
Protest? - Waste of time
Blogging? - No one cares about blogs any more
Talking About It ? - Waste of air
Communicating To Politicians? - ha Ha Ha Ha Ha


So I reaffirm my stance of not caring about political drama any more.

Edited by Shippou, 16 August 2012 - 08:31 AM.

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3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#12 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 30889

Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:40 AM

Well I have noticed that this man and his wikileaks often leak US/western secrets but not Russian/eastern knowledge/secrects. How come? I mean why not treat all nations like this and leak all of it?

Have you noticed this from reading wikileaks.org, or by reading about wikileaks in American-owned media? Check out the countries index, there's a lot of countries with leaked info in there. Regarding 'the east', wikileaks has been credited by some with setting off the 2010/2011 Tunisian revolution, which turned into the "Arab Spring", spreading democracy across the middle-east...
Yes, the US is a popular target, mainly because Bradley Manning (allegedly) gave them the mother of all leaks in 2010, which they're still sifting through -- they said they could continue publishing for 20 years just from that one leak.

Edited by Hodgman, 16 August 2012 - 08:41 AM.


#13 FLeBlanc   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3109

Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:40 AM

Name something that can be done, that actually WORKS .

Voting? - Nope, both parties don't care about anything but power
Protest? - Waste of time
Blogging? - No one cares about blogs any more
Talking About It ? - Waste of air
Communicating To Politicians? - ha Ha Ha Ha Ha


So I reaffirm my stance of not caring about political drama any more.


Hey guys, this is too hard. We should just give up.

#14 dpadam450   Members   -  Reputation: 932

Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:56 AM

We had a shooting at a Batman theater from a kid who was superior in school. Got a full ride + 20K each year in spending from a college. Anyone can look good on paper and in the spotlight. There is no question that Assange could have done something stupid, the guy just seems weird.

#15 Dwarf King   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1882

Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:07 AM

Well I have noticed that this man and his wikileaks often leak US/western secrets but not Russian/eastern knowledge/secrects. How come? I mean why not treat all nations like this and leak all of it?

Have you noticed this from reading wikileaks.org, or by reading about wikileaks in American-owned media? Check out the countries index, there's a lot of countries with leaked info in there. Regarding 'the east', wikileaks has been credited by some with setting off the 2010/2011 Tunisian revolution, which turned into the "Arab Spring", spreading democracy across the middle-east...
Yes, the US is a popular target, mainly because Bradley Manning (allegedly) gave them the mother of all leaks in 2010, which they're still sifting through -- they said they could continue publishing for 20 years just from that one leak.


Still don't get why they wanna do this. So a bunch of people decides to make most of the governments angry on them and expect to get away with it. I mean this is not common sense. Sure now we know that many govs are bad, but back then in the old viking nation their was a saying which still counts, "good persons do not a good king make".

We all knew that something would happen as soon as they leaked all these documents. The reactions wikileak met was expected by all. In China or Russia he would have been shot now. At least the man is still alive(ya I know he will end up in jail for a long time). And yes I have read some here and there as many documents was shown in original on many of our news websites. Still he knew this was coming and he did it so a far as I know he took his choice and must live with it.

Also I am not found of our western nations secrets getting leaked so we stand worse doing negotiations. I do also think about our children's future after all...

So should I say he is a hero or a traitor? I shall call him none of the names and instead deem him a naive man without the skills to analyze the results of his own actions.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education"

Albert Einstein

"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education"

Albert Einstein

 


#16 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 30889

Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:36 AM

Also I am not found of our western nations secrets getting leaked so we stand worse doing negotiations. I do also think about our children's future after all...

Isn't that like a husband being caught cheating on his wife, but then getting angry at the person who caught him, instead of apologising for his actions and changing his evil behaviour for good?
Assange is not American; he has no reason to care about your patriotism. If as a hypothetical example, China v USA negotiations are now slightly more fair for China, then logically that is a good thing, as more "children's futures" have been benefited.

So a bunch of people decides to make most of the governments angry on them and expect to get away with it. I mean this is not common sense.

Does the name Elsberg mean anything to you? He was the 70's version of Bradley Manning. Again, the New York Times published his leak (as journalists are constitutionally protected in doing), which began the end of the Vietnam War, and also led to the downfall of Nixon.
Democracy can't function without truth.

#17 Dwarf King   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1882

Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:01 AM

Look we are talking international relations here. No nation play by the rule. Just get over it. All that matters here is know how, resources, money and military power and then democracy. I dream about the last would be the most important but it ain't and we all know why.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education"

Albert Einstein

"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education"

Albert Einstein

 


#18 MrDaaark   Members   -  Reputation: 3555

Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:18 AM

How is this being reported in your country? Who is the bad guy, according to your TV?

Both my local papers have just reported it as a list of facts, with no slant.

Nation Paper did the same: http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/08/16/britain-says-julian-assanges-ecuador-asylum-wouldnt-change-a-thing-may-revoke-diplomatic-status/ (Canada)

#19 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:20 AM

So, an Australian journalist, subject to a smear campaign, has just been granted asylum to protect him from a conspiracy by the United States to persecute/imprison/kill him for his publications.


Is there any evidence that the US has the intention to extradite him from Sweden? It seems like it's something that's possible, but I've only heard people being alarmist saying that the US would do that without any confirmation that it's the US's intention. The only thing we know for certain is that he is avoiding being tried on charges of rape regardless of how guilty he might be.

That's why Bradley Manning is being tortured while awaiting trial, right - he's the one that allegedly stole the documents? This is also why Wikileaks asked for the US government's help in redacting the files before publishing them, but had to do it themselves after the US refused to help redact sensitive life-and-death information. The New York times also published Manning's stolen files -- are they being painted as a bad guy by your media? Also, the US government was forced to admit that they haven't yet found a case where these documents have resulted in anyone coming to harm...

He hasn't been tortured. He's been put in solitary confinement for a very long time, but he's also caused one of the largest intelligence leaks in US history. I don't see how you could expect anything different. The espionage act is serious business, and if he didn't know what he was getting himself into he shouldn't have leaked it.

#20 slicer4ever   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3943

Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:26 AM



... though I never bother paying attention to political drama any more.


This is actually kind of a big part of the problem, right here. I don't know the truth regarding Assange one way or the other, but the thing is, from where I sit it seems as if we are letting certain people act with impunity and do whatever the hell they want, simply because we as a nation can't be arsed to pay attention, give issues the proper impartial coverage they require, or hold those certain people accountable for their actions. We, simply, don't give a shit, and giving a shit is the only way that the rules of due process and the preservation of civil rights and liberties will be fairly observed by those in power.

Please, people, start giving a shit.


Name something that can be done, that actually WORKS .

Voting? - Nope, both parties don't care about anything but power
Protest? - Waste of time
Blogging? - No one cares about blogs any more
Talking About It ? - Waste of air
Communicating To Politicians? - ha Ha Ha Ha Ha


So I reaffirm my stance of not caring about political drama any more.


This is why we need to re-invent our system, we have the technology now for every person to vote on every issue, for mass information to be distributed near instantly, yet we still rely on a 300 year old system where we give away our capability to just a very small minority.
Check out https://www.facebook.com/LiquidGames for some great games made by me on the Playstation Mobile market.




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