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It's official: western citizen granted asylum from western tyrants


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72 replies to this topic

#21 MrDaaark   Members   -  Reputation: 3555

Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:54 AM

No nation play by the rule. Just get over it.


Polio kills. Just get over it.
Bank robbers rob banks. Just get over it.
Street gangs make neighborhoods unsafe. Just get over it.

Governments need to play by the rules. Especially democratic ones, who are working for the people who voted them in. They are public servants. If they aren't serving the public interest, or are breaking the laws, that needs to be exposed, and the guilty parties need to suffer the consequences.

All the leaked Cables have been censored by Wikileaks to not put anyone in danger.

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#22 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8562

Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:10 AM

The only thing we know for certain is that he is avoiding being tried on charges of rape regardless of how guilty he might be.


Then the only thing you know is wrong;

Mr Assange took refuge at the embassy in June to avoid extradition to Sweden, where he faces questioning over assault and rape claims, which he denies.


Not being tried, questioning.
No charges have been brought against him at this time.

The reason for the 'alarmist' attitude is that these charges suddenly appeared after it became clear he wasn't going to be leaving the UK for the USA. Hodgman's post higher up covers the details about the lack of statements and the deals which countries have in place.

It's pretty damned naive not to be able to do the maths here...

#23 Cornstalks   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6999

Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:17 AM

Aw, come on guys, since when has our country ever done anything illegal?

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[ I was ninja'd 71 times before I stopped counting a long time ago ] [ f.k.a. MikeTacular ] [ My Blog ] [ SWFer: Gaplessly looped MP3s in your Flash games ]

#24 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6692

Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:18 AM

Here in Sweden we're pretty convinced he should be put on trial for rape. He's got nothing to hide... right?


Define We ? (I'm Swedish btw) The amount of political pressure in this case is insane, Seeing that Sweden have sent people off to be tortured by the US before he has every reason to be careful.
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#25 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:28 AM


The only thing we know for certain is that he is avoiding being tried on charges of rape regardless of how guilty he might be.

Not being tried, questioning.
No charges have been brought against him at this time.


Ok. The only thing we know for certain is that he is avoiding being questioned in an investigation of his rape of two women regardless of how guilty he may be.

#26 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8562

Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:27 PM

Ok. The only thing we know for certain is that he is avoiding being questioned in an investigation of his rape of two women regardless of how guilty he may be.


Or is he really?
It would seem that he was granted leave to exit the country and has offered to allow himself to be questioned either at the Swedish embassy in London or Scotland Yard or via video link back in Nov 18th 2010 - this was BEFORE the international arrest warrant was issued.

Which raises the question of why did they let him leave in the first place if this was an on going investigation and why are they so insistant on him coming back when they could have conducted interviews at other locations, including Swedish soil in London?

Note to mention that it is almost unheard of for rape trials in Sweden to be held in public - so why the massive public viewing on this one?

The whole thing, frankly, stinks of a stich up and I don't blame him for not wanting to go back...

#27 WavyVirus   Members   -  Reputation: 735

Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:30 PM



The only thing we know for certain is that he is avoiding being tried on charges of rape regardless of how guilty he might be.

Not being tried, questioning.
No charges have been brought against him at this time.


Ok. The only thing we know for certain is that he is avoiding being questioned in an investigation of his rape of two women regardless of how guilty he may be.


Although I believe he has agreed to:
  • Be interviewed in Sweden previously
  • Be interviewed inside the Ecuadorian embassy now
  • Voluntarily go to Sweden if they will guarantee not to ship him on to the US to face unrelated charges there
  • Voluntarily go to Sweden if the US will guarantee not to prosecute him
And these offers were all rejected, which could be even more telling than his apparent reluctance to be questioned.

#28 kuramayoko10   Members   -  Reputation: 386

Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:55 PM

Although I believe he has agreed to:

  • Be interviewed in Sweden previously
  • Be interviewed inside the Ecuadorian embassy now
  • Voluntarily go to Sweden if they will guarantee not to ship him on to the US to face unrelated charges there
  • Voluntarily go to Sweden if the US will guarantee not to prosecute him
And these offers were all rejected, which could be even more telling than his apparent reluctance to be questioned.


Sweden neither the US warranted him that they would not prosecute him.

The topic went way off-topic and turned out to be a fight about which country is most soberan and powerful and etc.
The real deal behind all this is that he represents something everyone wishes for but is too afraid to admit. He represents an act of exposing the truth behind governments that anyone should have the right to know.

The governments (like the US) pledge that this info is too sensitive and would cause great harm. But as Hodgman cited great revolutions were based on exposures like this one.
People that say "Politics is not for me" or "I read some stuff on the web but I don't give a shit" are just too selfish and have never had to worry about been pursued and prosecuted unfairly by a government. Since you are too comfort in the position your grandparents and ancestors gave to you, you don't give a shit for those things ... which is very sad.

I think everyone here need to go back to the videostore and rent the movie "V for Vendetta". It brings a great analogy to this situation and shows how an idea can grow up to something huge and valuable.
Programming is an art. Game programming is a masterpiece!

#29 Dwarf King   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1968

Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:01 PM

Guys too many nations out there don't play by the rules. All nations have a secret service ad they certainly do not play by the rules. When I did a research on the Chinese foreign policy they often did not play by the the rules(long story short I took a degree in China studies back then). Name one nation that play the international game by the rule and where human rights and democracy are top priority over everything else. Name one nation where freedom of speech even within secret service is allowed.

You see what I do not get here is that people are so surprised about this issue. What happens if a worker in one game company reveals all the secrets to the other competing game company? I mean why be angry about this guy is getting sued and perhaps even put in jail?

Now what is happening now is not something I like but also please keep in mind that no government will sit quiet by while some organization without any armed division or political power or even a seat in UN, just reveals all its embarrassing details.

Also to cure illness is not the same as cure mans lust for power and domination of resources and territory. One of the things I have learned by studying Organization theory and sociology(minor in the degree mention above) is that the people who work for the governments all over the world think differently and act differently. I do not get how people can be so shocked about this. Surely most of you would have seen this coming.

None of us can change that system unless we change the way other nations play all over the world. The internet is simply not powerful enough for that. The secret service also utilize the internet. How did it go with Egypt? Yaa people talk about Syria and say that the internet had something to do with it. Did anyone consider that each time a new elite steps into the position of power they also become the one they fought(remember the words about fighting monsters and becoming one?? )?

The truth is that most of you do not see what it takes to be in the position of power. Running a nation or dealing with nations who are not playing by the rules is not done by being naive and stick to the rules all the time. That is why we have departments of intelligence and that is why some stuff should not come up to the surface.

So do I find this good? No, but that is not the issue here. The issue here is that many seem to be upset or shock about this wikileak incident where he might end up being handed over to US. Come on guys we all know that US gov would like to prosecute him.

Also just complaining on the net is no good if no actions are taken. So you think this is bad, well then help him or else encourage to help or accept what is happening. Just whining about how bad this is, really does not help much. This is the real life game and not about making games, in this game you can lose your save life if you step wrong and not just some money.

Also I point to the very fact that wikileak should have been analyzing the outcome of their actions a little more before they did what they did as revealing the secrets of a gov is never for free. Is that so hard to understand?

Also democracy is a great thing but that is often is put in the background when the sentence "for the safety of the nation" bumps up. Angry? Well go out and pick your fight as we have a whole world of govs who do not value the people's voice unless a selection is up or they revolt. Remember all you see is the smiles on TV and not all the bad stuff under the hood and that is why most govs dislike wikileaks.

Now before you jump up from your sofa and scream "viva la revolution!" then remember this:
You have no army
You do not have a national bank to fund your plans
You do not have a huge army of propaganda writers
You did notice that wikileaks got all it's accounts closed did you not?

Guys give up or spend all your time doing this and not hanging around here doing nothing. International politics is a full time business and many lose... Else the talk here is really not productive --- back to work -----

Over and out Posted Image

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education"

Albert Einstein

"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education"

Albert Einstein

 


#30 WavyVirus   Members   -  Reputation: 735

Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:34 PM

Dwarf King, I don't think that everybody is as naive as you suggest, or particularly surprised that governments are willing to do this sort of thing. But that doesn't mean that people cannot express their outrage or call people out - even when they know that it is probably futile to do so.

What is perhaps surprising is the brazen and public way in which the UK government is threatening to take the largely unprecedented step of revoking an embassy's diplomatic status. We all know about illegal renditions/abductions, detention without trial, torture etc which have taken place in the past, but this sort of thing is usually conducted with a bit more secrecy.

#31 kseh   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2470

Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:37 PM

The reason I think gov'ts should be expected to play by the rules is that they need to set an example. When the power that a gov't or any leader possesses is from the trust placed upon them by the people that they are supposed to represent, anything that erodes that trust subsequently erodes their right to wield that power.

That being said, it seems to me that so far all the rules are indeed being followed. Painfully so. That's why this whole thing is taking so long and people are exploring every tactic and loophole that they can think of to accomplish their interests. All sides are doing this. And you can bet that every player in some way has something that they feel they can gain from the stance that they're taking. An unprecedented can of worms has been opened here. In any case, I'm sure, that this Australian gentleman will inevitably be a prisoner in one way or another the remainder of his life and he knows it.

Edited by kseh, 16 August 2012 - 01:38 PM.


#32 WavyVirus   Members   -  Reputation: 735

Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:04 PM

According to the (non-american-owned) reporting here, he's only wanted for questioning (not trial) over "rape". And that it's not even "rape" as in "forced sex acts", but a weird Swedish law that allows adult consensual-sex to be deemed inappropriate after the fact (such as having sex with a minor - it's not ok even when consensual) -- where the prosecutor has decided that the women's consent at the time was obtained through "inappropriate seduction" and that because it was a short-term relationship, they should have used a condom, therefore it is "rape".


Do you have a source for details of the specific allegations against Assange? There seems to be a lot of conflicting information floating about.

#33 The_Neverending_Loop   Members   -  Reputation: 635

Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:23 PM



... though I never bother paying attention to political drama any more.


This is actually kind of a big part of the problem, right here. I don't know the truth regarding Assange one way or the other, but the thing is, from where I sit it seems as if we are letting certain people act with impunity and do whatever the hell they want, simply because we as a nation can't be arsed to pay attention, give issues the proper impartial coverage they require, or hold those certain people accountable for their actions. We, simply, don't give a shit, and giving a shit is the only way that the rules of due process and the preservation of civil rights and liberties will be fairly observed by those in power.

Please, people, start giving a shit.


Name something that can be done, that actually WORKS .

Voting? - Nope, both parties don't care about anything but power
Protest? - Waste of time
Blogging? - No one cares about blogs any more
Talking About It ? - Waste of air
Communicating To Politicians? - ha Ha Ha Ha Ha


So I reaffirm my stance of not caring about political drama any more.


3 of those items seemed to work really well with Egypt, luckily they didn't carry the same attitude you harbor.

And in regards to the situation with Julian Assange, of course some of the documents he leaked could of led to unwanted tensions between countries, but if they weren't doing anything wrong in the first place it wouldn't of been an issue. I dont think this is something I or any other civilians of the said nations should be okay with allowing! this is just the start of things to come, once someone starts pushing the envelope they are going to keep doing so to see how far they can push it, and people having a defeatist attitude of "I cant do anything about it" is exactly what is going to give them the power to abuse our rights and the laws.

Edited by The_Neverending_Loop, 16 August 2012 - 02:29 PM.


#34 Mizu   Members   -  Reputation: 1184

Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:43 PM

sooo... let me get this straight. Sweden issues an international arrest warrant because of a crime that the police here in sweden usually wouldn't even bother to even start an investigation on.. and this causes Britain to threaten to violate the Vienna convention, to catch this this guy so he can be brought to Sweden for questioning. All for this investigation that already has been closed down once and lacks evidence, and has a high chance of being closed down again...

Nope, nothing fishy going on here....
</Irony>

...and people having a defeatist attitude of "I cant do anything about it" is exactly what is going to give them the power to abuse our rights and the laws.

^ This ...is almost exactly what I was going to write Posted Image

#35 FLeBlanc   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3129

Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:47 PM

It is true that every human institution since, well... forever, has been afflicted by some form of corruption. Organizations will war, they will send secret forces to do the deeds they don't want anyone to know about, they will lie and cheat and steal.. Corporations do the same. Corruption runs all the way down, even to the intimate, interpersonal relationships in our day to day lives. This is a fact of human nature. But, that does not mean we have to just roll over and accept it. Yes, it is difficult to bring the kind of reform that is needed, and yes every effort of ours is, ultimately, doomed to failure. But the moment we stop trying to be better, the moment we just roll over and let our governments and our institutions do what they do unchallenged and unchecked, is the moment that we lose. Idealism might not be realistic, but it is the only driving force we have to stand counter to the things we perceive to be wrong, the injustices that occur every day. Yeah, maybe you'll be a single voice drowned out in a chorus, but that doesn't mean you should just shut up and not say anything.

If there is solid evidence of wrongdoing against Assange, then of course there needs to be justice. But if, as seems to be apparent, the whole noise and tumult is merely about trumped up charges meant to bring Assange into the grasp of people bent not on justice, but on revenge for airing their dirty laundry, then this is wrong, and Ecuador is to be applauded for standing up for the guy. But it really is not surprising that, in the climate of fear and intimidation that darken today's world, he would be unwilling to deliver himself into the hands of people who wish him ill and have the political clout to bring him to harm.

Now, I do have friends and family currently serving in the US military, and I do understand that leaks on the scale of what occurred do have repercussions that can affect even the lives of those friends and family. That bothers me, a lot. But what also bothers me is that deception and intimidation are relied upon so heavily in this matter, rather than reasonable due process. It's the misinformation that bothers me the most; how difficult it is to get the straight facts, not just about this story, but about so many others. So many lies, so much hatred, so many people following their particular personal interests, rather than remembering things such as simple human compassion. But the only way real change will ever be effected, is if those changes occur first at the lowest levels, at the level of people dealing with people. It certainly won't be effected if you just say, "gosh, politics is just so darn political. Everyone is a liar, nobody is honest, so I'll just ignore it and let them be what they are." The only thing that lies down that road is more and more of the same kind of madness that we already have.

#36 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3013

Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:01 PM

@ Hodgman

"My Media" .... The US doesn't have 1 or 2 media outlets, so I can literally get any side of the story I wish from thousands of sources


Almost all of them owned by 1 or 2 big media conglomerates.

... though I never bother paying attention to political drama any more.

and yet you felt qualified to comment on this?
if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#37 jefferytitan   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2441

Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:19 PM

The whole situation reeks to me. My thoughts:
  • I have no idea about the rape case, although the things I've heard don't sound rock solid.
  • It seems like too much governmental effort is being expended following one case.
  • It would seem logical for the governments concerned to take one of the many possible compromises (e.g. an agreement not to extradite further or to video interview) rather than stretch international relations and internation law.
  • Given that Assange is not a US citizen, other countries should not be hastening him to the US for treason charges.
  • I strongly doubt the US would treat Assange humanely and fairly if they got him.
  • Corruption seems sadly unavoidable, which is why resisting it is essential. An unopposed force will overwhelm.
  • We should watch governments like a hawk... in the same sense that you would watch an ex-burglar if they are working in your house.


#38 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:09 PM

sooo... let me get this straight. Sweden issues an international arrest warrant because of a crime that the police here in sweden usually wouldn't even bother to even start an investigation on.. and this causes Britain to threaten to violate the Vienna convention, to catch this this guy so he can be brought to Sweden for questioning. All for this investigation that already has been closed down once and lacks evidence, and has a high chance of being closed down again...

That's not what happened. Sweden issued an arrest warrant. They withdrew the arrest warrant pending further investigation and allowed him to leave. After leaving to the UK another investigator issued a request for further questioning and it was granted. As he had fled, they issued an international warrant for his arrest. He didn't want to leave the UK to be questioned, so they filed to have him extradited, which he appealed multiple times leading to where we are now.

Honestly, there is no reason for him to be seeking asylum from being extradited from Sweden. If he were afraid of being extradited to the US, he should have fled to a country that doesn't extradite to the US, but he's in the UK, which could extradite him just as easily as Sweden could, and since he's not a citizen they probably would if asked.

#39 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8562

Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:39 PM

He did not 'flee' he was given permission to leave the country after a request for being able to live there was turned down - they could have prevented him leaving the country at that time too if he was a suspect yet they did not. They allowed him to leave the country.

UK->US extradion isn't as easy as it might seem; a case like it, a UK citizen who was charged with hacking the US defense system, has been stalled in the courts here for 8 years. While he is not a UK citizen the fact he is a commonwealth one might complicate matters. (IANAL and all that)

Sweden, on the other hand, has a setup which allows them to effectively give the US tempory custody of a prision without the courts getting involved as it is an excutive decision. (The UK would still have to OK it apprently but chances are if he is over there then it wouldn't do anything to stop it).
As to how likely this would be, well apprently Sweden has in the recent past violated international treaties in relation to surrendering foreign nationals into US custody and has been critised by Amnesty International and the UN Committee against Torture for giving up two refugees to the CIA who were then tortured under the Egyptian regime of Hosni Mubarak.

#40 Mizu   Members   -  Reputation: 1184

Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:02 PM

That's not what happened. Sweden issued an arrest warrant. They withdrew the arrest warrant pending further investigation and allowed him to leave. After leaving to the UK another investigator issued a request for further questioning and it was granted. As he had fled, they issued an international warrant for his arrest. He didn't want to leave the UK to be questioned, so they filed to have him extradited, which he appealed multiple times leading to where we are now.

Yeah, Okay. But as Phantom said: He didn't flee. He was given permission to leave. My point is still that there's many things that's weird about this. Julian Assange obviously does not trust the swedish legal system, then why not question him in the UK instead? For some reason it is very important that he's brought here (to Sweden) for questioning, eventhough criminals has been questioned in other countries before...

Right now so called 'experts' are writing in swedish media saying that 'He should come to Sweden for questioning. The whole investigation will be thrown in the trashcan anyway because there is not enough evidence'. If that is the case, then I wonder why there is so much effort being put into this? The extent of the crime simply doesn't warrant this amount of attention...




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