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Realistic Encouragement vs Trolling Tear-down


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#41 Serapth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5262

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:39 PM

Ok, either I am exceptionally blind, part of the problem or otherwise ignorant, but I really don't see the point of the OP, at least so far as it goes with this particular forum. Simply put, I rarely if ever see threads I would consider overly critical, nor do I consider this community hostile. When people do step out of bounds, the moderators here do an exceptionally good job keeping the community inline, while not treading over into Nazi'ism. The general level of encouragement and support on these forums is LEAGUES beyond those you will find elsewhere.


Now to invert the conversation slightly, there are a few posts that will draw my ire or a rather terse response from me, if I bother responding at all.

First is extremely laziness. The number of questions I see that could be answered with six seconds of Googling is astounding, but generally even those are treated far more civilly than they probably deserve. There are also the "I got C++, how make game?" questions, which take lazy to a whole new level. Again I am still shocked at the treatment such a lazy question ellicits in these parts... I have seen pages of answer to a question someone took 2 seconds to write and often didn't bother with spelling or grammar checking in the least. On a near daily basis, I see two or three near identical threads on the same page! Yet, people still take the time and effort to respond to each of them.

Next is, a lot of people really DO need a reality check. People, most people it actually seems, want to skip the learning curve and "get to the fun bits". Game development doesn't work like that and pretending it does really is doing nobody any favors.



So I suppose I want to do the exact inverse of the OP. I want to congratulate the community at being so understanding of new developers, of having patience and giving your time and effort, even in the face of what is very often extreme laziness. And I want to applaud the moderation on this forum, for basically being mostly invisible, which is perhaps the high praise you can actually give them! The moderators on this forum seem exactly like all other (active) posters, while still maintaining civility in the face of absolute anarchy.

Edited by Serapth, 22 August 2012 - 01:41 PM.


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#42 Serapth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5262

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:49 PM

One other thought came to mind, and this is an area where I will answer *bluntly* and *honestly*, which of course can come across as harsh, but frankly this is an area where blowing unicorns and rainbows up someone's ass does them no favors...


That is on the posts about education and or career development. This is a topic that has several thousand dollars and years of ones life attached to it, and needs to be addressed in a somber and mature manner. Simply put, encouraging someone to do something stupid, is not helping them. There are a few simple realities that you need to realize if you do in fact want a job at an AAA game company...

- if you don't live in an area with AAA game companies, you either relocate, or you are screwed
- there are a thousand other people that want the same job as you, prepare accordingly
- a great many of those people are exceedingly smart and are willing to put the hours in, keep that in mind
- once you get the job, you may be astounded to discover, well... it's a job. In fact, it's a job with horrible job security. ( Look at the headlines for today... 3 major studios just bit the dust this week! ).


Hiding these truths from someone looking for career advice is doing them no favors, period.



Now, on the other hand, if someone is looking at getting started and you take a "don't bother, you are screwed" approach from day one, obviously that is not the right approach either.

But if the above type of advice is what you are condemning, I have to go on record saying I thoroughly and completely disagree with you.

#43 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3098

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:01 PM

Peer pressure to become expert is not good to me. I feel strongly that success in this field is not defined by becoming an expert at game making, though expert level helps. There are other considerations which could make a person a success. For example, whether a person is amateur or paid for game making is also not relevant to making a person successful game maker. To extend it to the maximum, it is possible (though unlikely, I admit) for a person to be an "expert" game maker and do it as a hobby.

Take two people, hypothetically, okay? One person learns about the bare minimum to make a simple game and it becomes very popular, but self esteem is still low because the game maker wants to create a much more complex game. On the other hand, another person has been at this for 20 years with "expert" abilities and a finished game but nobody wants it. Now what?


How can I impose my standards for myself upon another game maker.? I believe the "bully" who attacks a poster is indeed imposing personal standards on a very different other game maker ( or beginner ).

To be more on discussion, I feel that having great natural talent only speeds the learning and work for most people, but don't knock the majority of us who are not natural born geniuses. Few people are not capable of publishing a simple yet popular game, given learning, practice, hard work, and opportunity. Some of life is unknown matters, such as not being sure of what will be popular, so how can anyone really define "successfull game maker" by talent alone? There are popular works which did not take much talent. Success is very personal, I feel, and there is no cookie cutter standard for success.

For the above reason, I have to agree with Goran Milovanovic in his last post here:


You aren’t going to draw photorealistically no matter how hard you practice, and practice also can’t make you an expert game designer or programmer.

Meh. There's no evidence for that. Actually, if there is one persistent characteristic between "experts" in general, it is their years of experience.
I agree that blind encouragement is idiotic nonsense, and that people generally benefit when given an honest evaluation, along with some suggestions relating to more realistic projects.
However, I think you pushed this "natural talent" argument a little too far.



I am not pointing the finger here, but it seems to me that bullies tend to look down on others who they believe have less talent than them. Maybe the bullies all lack talent for compassion.

One thing is for certain, groups tend to gang up on bullies, so I am glad we have Moderators! Posted Image LOL

3Ddreamer

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#44 Lance42   Members   -  Reputation: 339

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:27 PM

Wow! Great discussion! Thanks everyone for the great comments. =D I feel I should clarify my position on one point. When I said "there are realities and requirements that you must satisfy", I meant it. I'm advocating the happy middle ground. If you are telling them they can't do it, you're doing it wrong. Tell them what they must do to accomplish their goal, and let them decide for themselves if they can or can't do it. If they actually starting trying to accomplish their goal, then they'll find out soon enough what you were talking about, and they'll be all the better prepared for it. If they don't actually try, well, they eliminated themselves. Either way, negative "you can't do it" comments were not required. Alright.. back to the IDE for me. =D

Lance...

#45 Bluefirehawk   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1232

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:42 AM

If you are telling them they can't do it, you're doing it wrong... If they don't actually try, well, they eliminated themselves.

Again with the boxing example:
Everybody CAN be an amateur boxer, but not everybody will be, because even being an amateur boxer is very hard. The same is with game dev. Part of it is the attitude of how you handle things. If you don't like to learn, then you CANNOT DO anything game related, maybe you shouldn't be in IT.

By the way, I have never seen anyone say "you can't do it", like you described. I have seen people say how hard it is, but never just "you can't do it trollololol".


If they actually starting trying to accomplish their goal, then they'll find out soon enough what you were talking about, and they'll be all the better prepared for it.

How better prepared? If you tell somebody "it is hard", he/she finds out that, "it is hard", what did that person learn? Well: "it is hard". If you are lucky, the person now knows why it is hard and what he/she has to learn. Sometimes you are not lucky. But I don't see anything for better prepared.

Either way, negative "you can't do it" comments were not required.

Sometimes they are.

I don't know why people think just trying it makes you magically better.

I tried myself on OpenGL about 5 years ago. Before I had any idea about discrete mathematics, OS structure, lineary algebra or algorithms.
Well, I failed. What did I learn? It is hard. Why? Because I have no idea what I am doing...

It was so over the top for me at that time, I did n't learn a thing. Had I invested the time learning about algorithms, I would have become a better programmer. In other words: I would have learned something with an easier project. If somebody had told me "you can't do it (yet), start with x", my time would have been better spent.
Project: Project
Setting fire to these damn cows one entry at a time!

#46 Malabyte   Members   -  Reputation: 588

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:07 AM

Well, I failed. What did I learn? It is hard. Why? Because I have no idea what I am doing...


Not only that, but since we humans are pattern-seeking animals, we "learn" a lot of things on our own that we later need to unlearn, because it's BS.

That said though, one could also ask how Ada Byron, the world's first programmer, ever learned how to program.

- Awl you're base are belong me! -

- I don't know, I'm just a noob -


#47 Cornstalks   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6974

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:44 AM

Personally, I'm a little tired of these "GD is full of non constructive trolls!" threads/points of view. Honestly, this community is not filled with these kinds of punks. Remember, we're on the Internet:
  • Cultures are very different. In some cultures, being blunt is the norm, and in others, being blunt is taken as being offensive. Just take in what someone is saying and assume they aren't trying to be offensive, and if they come across that way, first assume it's a cultural difference and accept it rather than get offended.
  • Don't read too much into things. Just because you start out saying "I wanna make teh next WoW!!1" and someone responds with "An MMO is totally unrealistic at this point for you, you'll fail, try something else" does NOT mean they really said "You're a terrible person and will never amount to anything and you'll never make a game."
  • Don't take things personally. If you say "I have a totally revolutionary game idea that's NEVER been done before... how do I sell my idea?" and someone responds "I doubt that it's truly never been done before, ideas are a dime a dozen, no one wants to buy your idea" don't interpret it as "Your idea sucks." It simply means that ideas don't really sell.
  • It's ok to be wrong. Gosh I hate it when people refuse to admit that a) they're wrong; or b) someone else knows more; or c) maybe that other idea is actually better.
  • We're not psychics. If you suck at explaining your problem/question, it's your fault people can't give you meaningful responses or if people tell you "X is better" and you say "But X is specifically not available to me" when you never mentioned that before. Clarify misunderstandings and responses.
  • Be grateful. I hate it when I see someone who gets upset if a) they aren't getting responses fast enough; or b) someone misunderstands something and responds to something you didn't actually ask; or c) feel entitled. Just be nice and polite. Clarify and thank.
  • Learn to take criticism constructively. It's entirely up to you whether or not criticism is constructive. Honestly. Even if someone doesn't express it in a very constructive way (see cultures above), you can still take it constructively.
  • Thicken your skin. If you have a soft skin, you will bleed. Horribly. Probably to death. Even if someone calls you a block headed nincompoop, don't freak out. Just accept the fact that there are ~7 billion people in this world, and yes, some of them are douche bags. Let it go. Be better than that.
  • You can still act like a grown up, you know. I hate it when people say "That hurt my feelings and it doesn't help me" to everyone but the person who offended them. If someone is rubbing you the wrong way, feel free to tell them! If you feel like someone is doing more damage than good, send a PM to them! Be an adult about it though. Don't just whine. Most people are reasonable. Some are idiots, and you'll learn quickly who the idiots are, and then you can just tune them out and completely ignore them.
  • Anything else I forgot to add to this list.


It's good to encourage people, and it's good to give them reality checks. But it's not good to forget we're on the Internet here...

Edited by Cornstalks, 23 August 2012 - 11:04 AM.

[ I was ninja'd 71 times before I stopped counting a long time ago ] [ f.k.a. MikeTacular ] [ My Blog ] [ SWFer: Gaplessly looped MP3s in your Flash games ]

#48 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3098

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:04 AM

Bluefirehawk,

I feel that it is important to keep the general principles clear without being distracted with exceptions too much. Let me show you what I am saying. My responses are in dark orange here.


If you are telling them they can't do it, you're doing it wrong... If they don't actually try, well, they eliminated themselves.

Again with the boxing example:
Everybody CAN be an amateur boxer, but not everybody will be, because even being an amateur boxer is very hard. The same is with game dev. Part of it is the attitude of how you handle things. If you don't like to learn, then you CANNOT DO anything game related, maybe you shouldn't be in IT.

Some beginners seem to not realize that becoming a game developer is much harder than they thought, as most of us know here (Game developer being much more than simply a game maker). We should agree here. However, I feel that it is rare for someone to enter the forums and not like to learn.

By the way, I have never seen anyone say "you can't do it", like you described. I have seen people say how hard it is, but never just "you can't do it trollololol".

Some people almost every day here say it with implications and innuendo, though experienced people are not deceived into believing that the motives of negative people are 100 % pure. There are plenty of examples expressing "you can't do it" without actually using those words.

If they actually starting trying to accomplish their goal, then they'll find out soon enough what you were talking about, and they'll be all the better prepared for it.

How better prepared? If you tell somebody "it is hard", he/she finds out that, "it is hard", what did that person learn? Well: "it is hard". If you are lucky, the person now knows why it is hard and what he/she has to learn. Sometimes you are not lucky. But I don't see anything for better prepared.

Realizing how hard will allow the learner to make plans for the tough times and be mentally prepared. No plan would greatly increase risks and cause much more work on things which will never be used again. Too many surprises and unnecessary work are a condition for possible failure or quitting. Instictively, people make plans and preparations when they are informed that tough times are coming with their chosen path.

Letting them know that becoming a game developer is hard would be like saying that they are embarking on a huge ocean or hiking across a gigantic mountain forrest, which increases the need in their mind for a course of action (plan), preparations, and supplies for the journey. It is a "heads up" that triggers greater alertness and instinct to adapt.

Either way, negative "you can't do it" comments were not required.

Sometimes they are.

I don't know why people think just trying it makes you magically better.

I tried myself on OpenGL about 5 years ago. Before I had any idea about discrete mathematics, OS structure, lineary algebra or algorithms.
Well, I failed. What did I learn? It is hard. Why? Because I have no idea what I am doing...

It was so over the top for me at that time, I did n't learn a thing. Had I invested the time learning about algorithms, I would have become a better programmer. In other words: I would have learned something with an easier project. If somebody had told me "you can't do it (yet), start with x", my time would have been better spent.

Focused on the phrase,

Either way, negative "you can't do it" comments were not required.

, I have to agree with Lance.



The key word which he used is "negative". Negative attitude in aviation terms means that the nose of the craft is heading down. Lance is talking about a shove downward on the beginner, I feel. Is this correct, Lance?

Relatively rare is it that something can't be done in technical ways, but some things are much better than others. If a way doesn't not exist, almost always a way could be invented to do it but might take a long time.

So I have to agree with Lance, that negative "You can't do it" way of communicating is not needed because far better options exist for expression.



3Ddreamer

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#49 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3098

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:12 AM

Personally, I'm a little tired of these "GD is full of non constructive trolls!" threads/points of view. Honestly, this community is not filled with these kinds of punks. Remember, we're on the Internet:

  • Cultures are very different. In some cultures, being blunt is the norm, and in others, being blunt is taken as being offensive. Just take in what someone is saying and assume they aren't trying to be offensive, and if they come across that way, first assume it's a cultural difference and accept it rather than get offended.
  • Don't read too much into things. Just because you start out saying "I wanna make teh next WoW!!1" and someone responds with "An MMO is totally unrealistic at this point for you, you'll fail, try something else" does NOT mean they really said "You're a terrible person and will never amount to anything and you'll never make a game."
  • Don't take things personally. If you say "I have a totally revolutionary game idea that's NEVER been done before... how do I sell my idea?" and someone responds "I doubt that it's truly never been done before, ideas are a dime a dozen, no one wants to buy your idea" don't interpret it as "Your idea sucks." It simply means that ideas don't really sell.
  • It's ok to be wrong. Gosh I hate it when people refuse to admit that a) they're wrong; or b) someone else knows more; or c) maybe that other idea is actually better.
  • We're not psychics. If you suck at explaining your problem/question, it's your fault people can't give you meaningful responses or if people tell you "X is better" and you say "But X is specifically not available to me" when you never mentioned that before. Clarify misunderstandings and responses.
  • Be grateful. I hate it when I see someone who gets upset if a) they aren't getting responses fast enough; or b) someone misunderstands something and responds to something you didn't actually ask; or c) feel entitled. Just be nice and polite. Clarify and thank.
  • Learn to take criticism constructively. It's entirely up to you whether or not criticism is constructive. Honestly. Even if someone doesn't express it in a very constructive way (see cultures above), you can still take it constructively.
  • Thicken your skin. If you have a soft skin, you will bleed. Horribly. Probably to death. Even if someone calls you a block headed nincompoop, don't freak out. Just accept the fact that there are ~7 billion people in this world, and yes, some of them are douche bags. Let it go. Be better than that.
  • You can still act like a grown up, you know. I hate it when people say "That hurt my feelings and it doesn't help me" to everyone but the person who offended them. If someone is rubbing you the wrong way, feel free to tell them! If you feel like someone is doing more damage than good, send a PM to them! Be an adult about it though. Don't just whine. Most people are reasonable. Some are idiots, and you'll learn quickly who the idiots are, and then you can just tune them out and completely ignore them.
  • Anything else I forgot to add to this list.

It's good to encourage people, and it's good to give them reality checks. But it's not good to forget we're on the Internet here...




Cornstalks, I agree with everything you wrote here on lone standing basis, but I feel strongly that we should not oppose positive peer pressure and calls for civility.

Everybody here is making a contribution in this thread and we are making progress! Thanks so much for this, Lance, and everyone else! Good stuff! Posted Image


3Ddreamer

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#50 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2102

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:50 AM

First is extremely laziness. The number of questions I see that could be answered with six seconds of Googling is astounding, but generally even those are treated far more civilly than they probably deserve. There are also the "I got C++, how make game?" questions, which take lazy to a whole new level. Again I am still shocked at the treatment such a lazy question ellicits in these parts... I have seen pages of answer to a question someone took 2 seconds to write and often didn't bother with spelling or grammar checking in the least. On a near daily basis, I see two or three near identical threads on the same page! Yet, people still take the time and effort to respond to each of them.


That was my first thought. It is quite hard to be polite, when the exactly same question is asked, and there are 5-8 threads on the SAME FREAKIN PAGE on the For Beginners topic list. They seem not only lazy for some googling, but lazy to open their eyes. More, they are not lazy to put the total rampage-bait-for-me-words "YET ANOTHER" in front sometimes. The poster even knows that he is farking lazy.

And I don't know, maybe I was always a thinker, but seeing the sentence "I have no idea where to start" just gets me down. Maybe we are just too spoiled by the internet and this "information society".

Sorry, maybe it's a sensitive spot for me.

Edited by szecs, 23 August 2012 - 11:53 AM.


#51 Serapth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5262

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:58 AM

"I have no idea where to start" just gets me down.


Actually the expression "I have no idea where to start" is pretty much a clear indicator that programming is seriously the wrong volition to be embarking on. Frankly, this is perhaps the defining trait of a good programmer!

That is what somewhat salts the wound, when the persons post is a clear indicator they are more or less bound for failure.

Not to say that if you get stumped, you are a failure as a programmer. But if you lack initiative and research skills, well... seriously, wrong profession.

Edited by Serapth, 23 August 2012 - 12:00 PM.


#52 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3098

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:22 PM


"I have no idea where to start" just gets me down.


Actually the expression "I have no idea where to start" is pretty much a clear indicator that programming is seriously the wrong volition to be embarking on. Frankly, this is perhaps the defining trait of a good programmer!

That is what somewhat salts the wound, when the persons post is a clear indicator they are more or less bound for failure.


Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?

Personally, I dig in there and search, but often in my posts there are added questions which I did not find in another similar thread and sometimes other people's threads are far too wordy with debates about this thing and that. Did you ever consider that? Maybe you are one of those skilled game makers who clogs the threads with unwanted debates about this or that.

So all these things considered, lighten up! You aren't going to stop new people from coming in the forum and posting their annoying and often admittedly lazy topics. The thing which all of us should keep in mind is to be kind and patient. Patient doesn't mean loiter and sulk over the lazy beginner post and then attack them.

Some of the first time posters might have a legitimate reason for their post which you have not considered and it is not attributed to laziness, so try if you can to stop being hyper-judgemental, okay? Posted Image

Patience, compassion, and other emotional areas are more important to you than exacting some kind of social justice which you may imagine in your minds. Posted Image


3Ddreamer

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#53 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2102

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:40 PM

1. Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?

2. So all these things considered, lighten up! You aren't going to stop new people from coming in the forum and posting their annoying and often admittedly lazy topics. The thing which all of us should keep in mind is to be kind and patient. Patient doesn't mean loiter and sulk over the lazy beginner post and then attack them.

3Ddreamer


1. Don't have time to think? Disabled to think? No. Sloth for thinking.
Did the 80's 90's guys use google or troll forums?

2. I don't reply to those post, or I reply in a helpful fashion. I gained my last 300 rep points in exactly those threads.

Edited by szecs, 23 August 2012 - 12:41 PM.


#54 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3098

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:51 PM


1. Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?

2. So all these things considered, lighten up! You aren't going to stop new people from coming in the forum and posting their annoying and often admittedly lazy topics. The thing which all of us should keep in mind is to be kind and patient. Patient doesn't mean loiter and sulk over the lazy beginner post and then attack them.

3Ddreamer


1. Don't have time to think? Disabled to think? No. Sloth for thinking.
Did the 80's 90's guys use google or troll forums?

2. I don't reply to those post, or I reply in a helpful fashion. I gained my last 300 rep points in exactly those threads.


szecs,

Personally I spend time googling and reading forums, as I indicated in my previous post, so I agree that everybody should do it, too. As a matter of fact, I spend hours each day doing so. Being at the earliest stage as a beginner, I really need it at this time.

What I am saying is that there is no excuse for bashing people in any case, even if they are admittedly lazy. It is that simple. No excuse for uncivil, hurtful posts and I will be quick to report them to Moderators when I see them. Call me a snitch, call me a tattle tail, but offenders will have a reckoning no matter how much they whine when caught. Mature people don't worry about snitches, anyway - only trouble makers worry about snitches. Posted Image

Posted Image

3Ddreamer

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#55 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2102

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:09 PM



1. Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?

2. So all these things considered, lighten up! You aren't going to stop new people from coming in the forum and posting their annoying and often admittedly lazy topics. The thing which all of us should keep in mind is to be kind and patient. Patient doesn't mean loiter and sulk over the lazy beginner post and then attack them.

3Ddreamer


1. Don't have time to think? Disabled to think? No. Sloth for thinking.
Did the 80's 90's guys use google or troll forums?

2. I don't reply to those post, or I reply in a helpful fashion. I gained my last 300 rep points in exactly those threads.


szecs,

Personally I spend time googling and reading forums, as I indicated in my previous post, so I agree that everybody should do it, too. As a matter of fact, I spend hours each day doing so. Being at the earliest stage as a beginner, I really need it at this time.

What I am saying is that there is no excuse for bashing people in any case, even if they are admittedly lazy. It is that simple. No excuse for uncivil, hurtful posts and I will be quick to report them to Moderators when I see them. Call me a snitch, call me a tattle tail, but offenders will have a reckoning no matter how much they whine when caught. Mature people don't worry about snitches, anyway - only trouble makers worry about snitches. Posted Image

Posted Image

3Ddreamer

We are misunderstanding each other I guess. At first, you commented on our attitude (which was about thinking that a particular attitude is not for being a programmer), then you are talking about a totally different thing: about bashing. I completely agree with you about the bashing. As I said, I don't bash, and I actually gained a lot of rep points in those threads. I only said it's hard not to bash.

Edited by szecs, 23 August 2012 - 01:12 PM.


#56 Serapth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5262

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:54 PM

Nor do I bash, and frankly if you viewed that comment as a bash and it was the kind of thing you report for moderation, I would kindly suggest you stop wasting the moderators time on such banal complaints.

In many/most forums rtfm is the typical response to such posts. That it isn't that way here is a testament to the community.

As an aside, if a person doesn't have time to do a modicum of research, they don't have time to succeed at programming.

#57 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3098

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:56 PM

Well, yeah, szecs....

I don't intend to go on the attack on anyone in particular, but many of the people who are hostile to the lazy people and saying that they will never amount to anything are themselves not being professional about it by wasting time in judging the lazy people. Posted Image


Remember that if you point the finger you got your other ones pointing at yourself? Posted Image

Come now, people, you can do better than that, but it will take compassion. In the long run, emotional intelligence is far more important than programming knowledge.

I am done here. Posted Image


3Ddreamer

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#58 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3098

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:00 PM

Nor do I bash, and frankly if you viewed that comment as a bash and it was the kind of thing you report for moderation, I would kindly suggest you stop wasting the moderators time on such banal complaints.

In many/most forums rtfm is the typical response to such posts. That it isn't that way here is a testament to the community.

As an aside, if a person doesn't have time to do a modicum of research, they don't have time to succeed at programming.


That is not correct about me. I warn people who are hyper-judgemental and on the edge of acceptable that if they cross that line at their toes and go bashing then I will be on it if I see it.

Hyper-judgemental people seem to always be on the edge of bashing people, obviously.


3Ddreamer

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#59 Serapth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5262

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:06 PM

Well, yeah, szecs....

I don't intend to go on the attack on anyone in particular, but many of the people who are hostile to the lazy people and saying that they will never amount to anything are themselves not being professional about it by wasting time in judging the lazy people. Posted Image


Remember that if you point the finger you got your other ones pointing at yourself? Posted Image

Come now, people, you can do better than that, but it will take compassion. In the long run, emotional intelligence is far more important than programming knowledge.

I am done here. Posted Image


3Ddreamer


See, here's the thing...

I don't see these threads you are talking about, I don't see these posters you are talking about, and when such threads do occur, I see the moderators doing their job.

Put frankly, intended or not, you and the OP are effectively insulting the community and moderation of this website, something I personally don't take kindly too.

#60 Telastyn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3726

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:17 PM

Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted.


That's right. We are all very busy, and filling the forums with duplicate questions and FAQ questions are a waste of our time. How many people look at a question? A few hundred? Even if that only takes a second (it doesn't) then not spending the 30 seconds to do a simple google search has wasted multiples of time for the community to save yourself a few seconds.

It is selfish.
It shows a complete lack of consideration for others.

Maybe it's not proper to troll these people or bash them overly much, but these forums don't really suffer from that. But those posters do need to be educated in no uncertain terms to not do that in the future.

Edited by Telastyn, 23 August 2012 - 02:20 PM.





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