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Realistic Encouragement vs Trolling Tear-down


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#61 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2176

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:44 PM

Why are you saying those things to me? Do I bash?
What you are doing here now IS trolling.

Close this thread please.

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#62 Oberon_Command   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1938

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:59 PM

Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?


I agree with Serapth on this point. Game programming takes lots of time and effort, and a lot of patience. If one doesn't have the time and patience to do even a few tens of minutes of research on a given topic, how is one ever going to find the time and patience to actually work on a game? Now, I often see that posters here are often willing to ignore that in order to help people, but I'd argue that there are times when this needs to be emphasized if not merely pointed out at least.

don't intend to go on the attack on anyone in particular, but many of the people who are hostile to the lazy people and saying that they will never amount to anything are themselves not being professional about it by wasting time in judging the lazy people.


You're right, they ARE wasting time. They are wasting time that could be spent working on their own projects. They're wasting time that could be spent with their families, or spent entertaining themselves, or working on hobbies completely unrelated to programming. Some people even waste time at work - all in order to try to help people with what they're doing. That the advice isn't immediately perceived as helpful does not change the fact that the vast majority of posters here post because they want to - not because they have to.

Saying that someone will "never amount to anything" is a bit uncalled for, I must say, but pointing out genuine laziness (and pointing out the lack of merit thereof) I think should be perfectly fair game, especially if it helps the lazy person get over their laziness. I must also say that I've never seen anything like you're describing. Methinks that there is a good deal of hyperbole in this thread.

Come now, people, you can do better than that, but it will take compassion. In the long run, emotional intelligence is far more important than programming knowledge.


More important for what, specifically? Speaking from experience, there exist cases where programming ability/knowledge is definitely more important than "emotional intelligence".

Edited by Oberon_Command, 23 August 2012 - 03:07 PM.


#63 Saint Squireen   Members   -  Reputation: 181

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 03:04 PM

I just read the first post of this and I cant beleive how awe-inspiring that was... seriously. That just blew me away. Thats the encouragement i needed, but didnt know I needed... I cant describe my feelings on this enough without screwing up my what my initial reaction was. The programs and games I have made so far are only texts so no colors, sounds, shapes, or any of that awesome stuff but now that I heard that "speech"..... its just awesome. Thanks for that.

~Saint Squireen

#64 Black-Rook   Members   -  Reputation: 1563

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:09 PM

I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer, or game designer, however as with any topic you can address the new comer in a more constructive and civil manner. If they're talking about making the next AAA title in two weeks with no prior experience simply not responding to their post is better then tossing an insult. Everyone should be allowed to dream because if we couldn't set goals higher than what we could normally achieve, technogly would not be at it's current state today! I remember stories from people in their 70's still laughing about the idea of using a "card" to pay for things, yet it's here...

New programers can save themselves a lot of grief by sharing ideas and only sharing a game they're planing to make once they have some form of a visual or playable demo.

The key to any conversation online or offline is that no matter what you say, someone out there will always have an opinion, good or bad. Work on your ideas, and weed out the good from the bad when it comes to comments.
GameDev Journal: http://www.gamedev.n...-rooks-journal/

OpenChess - 1.0 done!

Classic RPG #1 - Task 9 -> January 1st 2013

#65 Cornstalks   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6991

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:54 PM

I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer, or game designer, however as with any topic you can address the new comer in a more constructive and civil manner. If they're talking about making the next AAA title in two weeks with no prior experience simply not responding to their post is better then tossing an insult.

Can you please give a specific example of this happening? Anyone? Either no one has been able to link to a specific thread and say "Here is an example of this trolling tear-down" or I've overlooked it. I certainly don't think we should be insulting or belittling people (except for maybe trolls themselves, but even then you're just feeding them, and they usually get banned/suspended/warned pretty quickly by the great mods), but honestly, I can't remember a time when a sincere beginner was insulted or deliberately belittled by an older, more experienced member. The last time I saw one member insulting another member, it was a younger, less experienced member insulting an older, more experienced member.

Honestly, I feel like we're on a witch hunt here.
[ I was ninja'd 71 times before I stopped counting a long time ago ] [ f.k.a. MikeTacular ] [ My Blog ] [ SWFer: Gaplessly looped MP3s in your Flash games ]

#66 Ectara   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3019

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:08 PM

It seems I need to post in For Beginners from now on, to be afforded the same generosities.

#67 ApochPiQ   Moderators   -  Reputation: 16079

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:49 PM

It seems I need to post in For Beginners from now on, to be afforded the same generosities.


You already have a thread for voicing your complaints about this. Please keep it out of other discussions.

#68 Black-Rook   Members   -  Reputation: 1563

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 12:40 AM


I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer, or game designer, however as with any topic you can address the new comer in a more constructive and civil manner. If they're talking about making the next AAA title in two weeks with no prior experience simply not responding to their post is better then tossing an insult.

Can you please give a specific example of this happening? Anyone? Either no one has been able to link to a specific thread and say "Here is an example of this trolling tear-down" or I've overlooked it. I certainly don't think we should be insulting or belittling people (except for maybe trolls themselves, but even then you're just feeding them, and they usually get banned/suspended/warned pretty quickly by the great mods), but honestly, I can't remember a time when a sincere beginner was insulted or deliberately belittled by an older, more experienced member. The last time I saw one member insulting another member, it was a younger, less experienced member insulting an older, more experienced member.

Honestly, I feel like we're on a witch hunt here.


My post is voicing an opinion. "I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer", I never said anyone did this on the GameDev forums. Yes, I've seen this in the past many years ago, however since then, stricter rules and enforcement have been put into place.

Edited by Black-Rook, 24 August 2012 - 12:41 AM.

GameDev Journal: http://www.gamedev.n...-rooks-journal/

OpenChess - 1.0 done!

Classic RPG #1 - Task 9 -> January 1st 2013

#69 Legendre   Members   -  Reputation: 966

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:54 AM

I hung out in the Game Design section a lot over the last 4 months, and I noticed most of the time good suggestions or advice are given, but newcomers see it as "trolling tear-down". A lot of newcomers come to these forums with very strong beliefs, and are actually looking for people to agree with their beliefs.

E.g. zero programming skills, never made a game before but want to make the next Grand Theft Auto or Starcraft after writing a 200 page game design document and selling it to tripe A companies.

E.g. have some programming skills, but want to spend years "studying" game design or learning to write technical software from scratch, which would allow them to make their very first game a blockbuster.

If anyone suggests that their plan might not be feasible, the newcomer gets awfully defensive and start claiming that they're being trolled or that their "dream" is being attacked. Usually, the thread degenerates into a big argument as more outrageous claims and beliefs are stated by the newcomer.

#70 birko19   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:38 AM

Great post OP, I would not call myself inexperienced since I worked on a lot of game projects (School and personal), but I always consider myself a beginner no matter what because I'm constantly learning new things.

Here's a funny story. When I was in high school I was not exactly the greatest student (Mostly lazy). I remember taking an optional computer course in grade 10 which exposed us to a bit of VB programming. The teacher unfortunately was not that interested in teaching the course and he never really was a people's person, regardless, I barely passed the course. 2 years later I tried to take the second part of this course which apparently was a bit more advanced, but this time around I had the motivation and seeing how I had the pre-req, I was eligible. The first day of classes I walked in, the same teacher came up to me and asked me to leave his class because I was "not good enough" and I will "never do anything in the computer industry", he went on to say that he refuses to teach me even though it was his job and I had the eligibility. Whatever the case was I had to take a different course and that was that, but all I remember was that his words were heart breaking at the time that I actually wanted to stay away from programming in general.

Fast forward a few years after high school, working to save money, and what not, I eventually ended up going to college for Computer Science, how did that happen? Don't ask, but it was almost by luck (Initially what I had wanted was Computer Engineering). Today I'm happy to say that I work as a Software Developer for a living and have 5 years of experience under my belt in the industry, I have so much passion for what I do that I'm so thankful every day on how it worked out the way it did.

The morale of the story is, if you want it bad and you work your butt off, you will get there. It's not easy, but don't let anyone get in your way if you want it. Even if you think you're a slow learner or not good enough in subjects like math and what not, keep working hard and you'll get there.

#71 GeneralQuery   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1263

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 08:03 AM

I've lurked here for a long time, and have been a Senior Programmer/Systems analyst for 15 years. Occasionally I see a beginning game programmer, full of dreams and desires end up having those dreams crushed by those who would have them believe they are naive, too inexperienced, and stupid for not being able to see it. While I appreciate those who are trying to educate about the realities of the gaming industry, and encourage as they do it, I think it is taken too far by a select few. These few use their knowledge to appear superior to their peers, and really have little motive for "helping" beyond that. My message is not for them. (It wouldn't do any good if it was.)


I genuinely haven't seen any of this behaviour that you speak of. I've seen people being dealt a healthy dose of reality, sure, but it's always been in a patient and respectful way and I agree with levelling with beginners like that. It's best for the recipient in the long run to be made aware of when they are over reaching unrealistically as their time would be better spent mastering the precursor steps to such lofty goals. Patting people on the back and cheering hem on their way to a near-certain failure is irresponsible. Of course, the balance has to be met, but I certainly haven't seen any.many ego trips or bullying behaviour, and certainly not in such volumes as to be problematic.

#72 DZee   Members   -  Reputation: 194

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:13 AM

I suppose some of us have perhaps taken the role of advising newbies too harshly a little, but pretty much every scenario a newbie might have has already been covered in previous threads. I mean every week there's at least three youngsters who ask for help on making "an RPG". At some point you have to realize that no matter how much feedback you will get, unless you do something no one will code the game for you. I can't remember the last time I saw a newbie say, "I've read two-three books and experimented with this library, I feel comfortable, but this detail X I still don't quite get it.".

When I have questions they are detailed and they are very often things that spent I a considerable amount of time trying to solve myself before coming on here. Here's a picture of the books in my local library, everything really is up to you when you want it :

Posted Image

Before giving realistic feedback you need to be realistic about your goals. A lot of people are tired of seeing someone with zero programming knowledge ask on input on how to make Skyrim.

Not every aspect of game development is full-filling. Especially not starting out with console applications trying to figure out how to read a binary file or how to write a binary tree.

Edited by DZee, 24 August 2012 - 09:15 AM.

I "surf" the web, literally.


#73 Serapth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5593

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 12:16 PM

I believe baby murder is bad!

Um, ok. Is anyone here a baby murderer or prospective baby murder?

[Silence]

At this point in time that is my take on this thread. Lots of wishy washy comments about how being mean to newbies is, um, mean. But not a spec of evidence there is actually a problem here.

#74 Cornstalks   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6991

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 02:15 PM

My post is voicing an opinion. "I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer", I never said anyone did this on the GameDev forums. Yes, I've seen this in the past many years ago, however since then, stricter rules and enforcement have been put into place.

Your opinion is fine. I guess I'm just trying to say what Serapth said... I don't get why this is a 4 page discussion on this site if it's not a problem. Hence, I feel like it's a "witch hunt" to kill a beast that doesn't exist here.
[ I was ninja'd 71 times before I stopped counting a long time ago ] [ f.k.a. MikeTacular ] [ My Blog ] [ SWFer: Gaplessly looped MP3s in your Flash games ]

#75 Serapth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5593

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 03:20 PM


My post is voicing an opinion. "I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer", I never said anyone did this on the GameDev forums. Yes, I've seen this in the past many years ago, however since then, stricter rules and enforcement have been put into place.

Your opinion is fine. I guess I'm just trying to say what Serapth said... I don't get why this is a 4 page discussion on this site if it's not a problem. Hence, I feel like it's a "witch hunt" to kill a beast that doesn't exist here.


Unless of course, she weighs the same as a duck.

#76 birko19   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 03:21 PM


My post is voicing an opinion. "I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer", I never said anyone did this on the GameDev forums. Yes, I've seen this in the past many years ago, however since then, stricter rules and enforcement have been put into place.

Your opinion is fine. I guess I'm just trying to say what Serapth said... I don't get why this is a 4 page discussion on this site if it's not a problem. Hence, I feel like it's a "witch hunt" to kill a beast that doesn't exist here.


This problem does exist, maybe not on this forum but in life. I suppose it's a message for those who are trying and may run into such beasts. The message is not to give up if you really want to do it.

#77 Lance42   Members   -  Reputation: 339

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

I guess I should give my motivations for posting this. I have not personally been the victim of this, but I know a 12 year old boy who received two private messages on this forum in response to his posting that drove him to tears, and it took me several weeks to get him to give GameDev another try. I do believe the messages were reported, and proper action taken, but the damage had already been done. In addition to that, I've seen it happen elsewhere as well. I think the message is needed here, which is why I posted it. And remember, my message wasn't to the people who are DOING this, it's to the people that are the victims. I'm not saying "stop being mean!". I'm saying "if it happens to you, don't let them discourage you. Do your study, learn your craft, and win.".

Hopefully that adds some clarification to both my motives and my audience. Again, thank you to all who are commenting. And to those who the post inspired, I'm glad. Once you get where you're going, be sure to come back and inspire someone else. =]

Lance...

#78 Oberon_Command   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1938

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:10 PM

I guess I should give my motivations for posting this. I have not personally been the victim of this, but I know a 12 year old boy who received two private messages on this forum in response to his posting that drove him to tears, and it took me several weeks to get him to give GameDev another try.


Don't you have to be at least 13 to join the forums? I seem to remember waiting until I was 13 before I signed up because I was under the impression that this was the case. Did that rule change?

Edited by Oberon_Command, 24 August 2012 - 05:13 PM.


#79 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 9089

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 06:36 PM

The first day of classes I walked in, the same teacher came up to me and asked me to leave his class because I was "not good enough" and I will "never do anything in the computer industry", he went on to say that he refuses to teach me even though it was his job and I had the eligibility.

[OT] This is different from an internet forum though, it is actually illegal for a teacher to refuse to teach a particular student. I hope you brought this up to the school board or wherever it should have been taken, even if it wouldn't have gotten you into the course anyhow. These kinds of teachers should not be teaching.

Edited by Bacterius, 24 August 2012 - 06:38 PM.

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#80 birko19   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:15 AM


The first day of classes I walked in, the same teacher came up to me and asked me to leave his class because I was "not good enough" and I will "never do anything in the computer industry", he went on to say that he refuses to teach me even though it was his job and I had the eligibility.

[OT] This is different from an internet forum though, it is actually illegal for a teacher to refuse to teach a particular student. I hope you brought this up to the school board or wherever it should have been taken, even if it wouldn't have gotten you into the course anyhow. These kinds of teachers should not be teaching.


This was like 12 years ago, and when I did bring it up to the guidance adviser, he calmly took his side and just advised me to register in another course, considering that all I wanted to do was graduate at the time, I did not make a big fuss out of it and moved on.

Edited by birko19, 25 August 2012 - 09:16 AM.





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