Hi I'm Kripis and in the future I want to work as an indie game developer (I'm 13) but I'm stuck, C# or C++? I know Java a bit (watched over 70 tutorials from "thenewboston" and over 20 of C++) I like C++, HATE Java so that one is off the table but there's C# and while they are similar I've heard it's better, I've also heard that C# is faster at getting your games finished, well my big question is keep going with C++ or stop and go for C# while it's still early (only 20 C++ videos).
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Help! I'm trying to make a game.
Started by Kripis, Aug 19 2012 02:27 AM
45 replies to this topic
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#2 Members - Reputation: 522
Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:51 AM
Go with whatever you feel the most comfortable.
With C# and XNA you already have a pretty nice framework and plenty of tutorials that will help you in making your game. Next to XNA there are probably some more other viable options that will help you make your game. Perhaps Unity3D is something you want to look into.
With C++ you have a bit more choice I think (I'm not that deep into what is out there for C#, so I might be wrong) there are plenty of engines/frameworks out there that will let you focus on the gameplay part instead of the rendering part.
So basically, see what fits you best in your goal. If you are still new to either of those 2 languages, compare differences, see what is out there that might help you in your development. All of that has already been answered more than once on this forum alone, so do some digging here and see what has been said over the past time.
Good luck!
With C# and XNA you already have a pretty nice framework and plenty of tutorials that will help you in making your game. Next to XNA there are probably some more other viable options that will help you make your game. Perhaps Unity3D is something you want to look into.
With C++ you have a bit more choice I think (I'm not that deep into what is out there for C#, so I might be wrong) there are plenty of engines/frameworks out there that will let you focus on the gameplay part instead of the rendering part.
So basically, see what fits you best in your goal. If you are still new to either of those 2 languages, compare differences, see what is out there that might help you in your development. All of that has already been answered more than once on this forum alone, so do some digging here and see what has been said over the past time.
Good luck!
#3 Members - Reputation: 132
Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:58 AM
Thanks for the answer but the type of answer I want is not "go with the one the you like" I want an "Go this because of this and NOT this because of this" type of answer I want many opinions like that, please!
Edited by Kripis, 19 August 2012 - 02:59 AM.
#4 Members - Reputation: 302
Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:16 AM
There are no such answers, this is life.Thanks for the answer but the type of answer I want is not "go with the one the you like" I want an "Go this because of this and NOT this because of this" type of answer I want many opinions like that, please!
Besides that, you are still 13 don't worry about this, go to school and get good grades first.
#5 Members - Reputation: 380
Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:20 AM
The problem with the answer you are looking for is that all languages are good in their own way, even for making games. Sometimes people totally miss that the concepts of programming are more important than the language choice for learning.
I think this answer is pretty good IMO.
But I'll try and be a little constructive.
If you are really serious about getting into games development and see it as something you would definitely want to get a job in when you are older.
Think about C++, its today's industry standard, however, it is a very intensive language. so learn the concepts and basic ideas before trying make games straight away, you will just stress out and fail.
The other thing is about your age, you are quite young, so the industry standard might change by the time you are 20 or something. That said, knowing the principles of programming is better than focusing on a language, it means you can pick up any language that happens to come along.
If you want to just dive right into games programming however, without having to worry to much about other stuff. Yes c# and XNA is a good place to go.
Go with whatever you feel the most comfortable.
With C# and XNA you already have a pretty nice framework and plenty of tutorials that will help you in making your game. Next to XNA there are probably some more other viable options that will help you make your game. Perhaps Unity3D is something you want to look into.
With C++ you have a bit more choice I think (I'm not that deep into what is out there for C#, so I might be wrong) there are plenty of engines/frameworks out there that will let you focus on the gameplay part instead of the rendering part.
So basically, see what fits you best in your goal. If you are still new to either of those 2 languages, compare differences, see what is out there that might help you in your development. All of that has already been answered more than once on this forum alone, so do some digging here and see what has been said over the past time.
Good luck!
I think this answer is pretty good IMO.
But I'll try and be a little constructive.
If you are really serious about getting into games development and see it as something you would definitely want to get a job in when you are older.
Think about C++, its today's industry standard, however, it is a very intensive language. so learn the concepts and basic ideas before trying make games straight away, you will just stress out and fail.
The other thing is about your age, you are quite young, so the industry standard might change by the time you are 20 or something. That said, knowing the principles of programming is better than focusing on a language, it means you can pick up any language that happens to come along.
If you want to just dive right into games programming however, without having to worry to much about other stuff. Yes c# and XNA is a good place to go.
Edited by !Null, 19 August 2012 - 04:23 AM.
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#6 Members - Reputation: 336
Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:23 AM
Okay i'll take a shot in the dark then, I can't tell you which one to go with, because that depends on your dedication and project aim, but I definitely lay the cards on the table.
Do you want full control of your game? Do you need to manage memory yourself, rather than letting the system manage it? Do you want it to run on multi-platforms? Then I'd choose C++, if we compare it to C#, C++ is a lot steeper learning curve, however, if you use the right libraries your application can be cross-platform, run faster (in saying that though, the speed difference probably isn't that noticable, it'll probably be more noticeable the larger the application is), industry standard for the most part, so learning C++ you can be safe in knowing its used throughout the industry.
C# is a Microsoft product, and while the language is very nice, it holds similar routes to Java, so if you hate Java, its likely you'll hate C#. However, its faster to get games out on the table, since you dont need to worry about memory management, and if you use XNA, boilerplate Windows and DirectX code (Also allows you to release for the Xbox). So there is always that route. As far as I know, so don't quote me on this, C# will only run on Windows, due to the CLR, so cross-platformability is dead in the water if you want to release for other platforms.
But, there just the cards, I can't tell you what to do, because thats your choice, and I don't understand your goals/aims/dedication enough to reccomend one over the other, and if I did, it would't always be clear cut, go with what you decide is best.
"The problem with the answer you are looking for is that all languages are good in their own way, even for making games. Sometimes people totally miss that the concepts of programming are more important than the language choice for learning."
This is a good reply, because its true. Dont look at the language features, but instead, look at what you can do with it. And good luck.
"The other thing is about your age, you are quite young, so the industry standard might change by the time you are 20 or something, that's knowing the principles of programming is better than focusing on a language, it means you can pick up any language that happens to come along."
And another, C++ is industry standard now, but whose to say this wont change. Learn one language, it becomes easier to traverse that skill and knowledge to be easier, I learnt PHP and then moved to C++ with relative ease having learnt PHP and its object orientated route. So it really doesn't matter that much.
Do you want full control of your game? Do you need to manage memory yourself, rather than letting the system manage it? Do you want it to run on multi-platforms? Then I'd choose C++, if we compare it to C#, C++ is a lot steeper learning curve, however, if you use the right libraries your application can be cross-platform, run faster (in saying that though, the speed difference probably isn't that noticable, it'll probably be more noticeable the larger the application is), industry standard for the most part, so learning C++ you can be safe in knowing its used throughout the industry.
C# is a Microsoft product, and while the language is very nice, it holds similar routes to Java, so if you hate Java, its likely you'll hate C#. However, its faster to get games out on the table, since you dont need to worry about memory management, and if you use XNA, boilerplate Windows and DirectX code (Also allows you to release for the Xbox). So there is always that route. As far as I know, so don't quote me on this, C# will only run on Windows, due to the CLR, so cross-platformability is dead in the water if you want to release for other platforms.
But, there just the cards, I can't tell you what to do, because thats your choice, and I don't understand your goals/aims/dedication enough to reccomend one over the other, and if I did, it would't always be clear cut, go with what you decide is best.
"The problem with the answer you are looking for is that all languages are good in their own way, even for making games. Sometimes people totally miss that the concepts of programming are more important than the language choice for learning."
This is a good reply, because its true. Dont look at the language features, but instead, look at what you can do with it. And good luck.
"The other thing is about your age, you are quite young, so the industry standard might change by the time you are 20 or something, that's knowing the principles of programming is better than focusing on a language, it means you can pick up any language that happens to come along."
And another, C++ is industry standard now, but whose to say this wont change. Learn one language, it becomes easier to traverse that skill and knowledge to be easier, I learnt PHP and then moved to C++ with relative ease having learnt PHP and its object orientated route. So it really doesn't matter that much.
Edited by theark, 19 August 2012 - 04:24 AM.
'Knowledge isn't key, but understanding...'
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Level 3 Diploma in Games Design and Development Extended
BSc Hons in Computer Games Programming (Current - 1st Year)
#7 Members - Reputation: 3714
Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:25 AM
Thanks for the answer but the type of answer I want is not "go with the one the you like" I want an "Go this because of this and NOT this because of this" type of answer I want many opinions like that, please!
In my opinion those opinions are worthless, stop worrying about what language you start with, you'll probably end up learning the 3 you mentioned + 10 more before you're 25 anyway.
So my advice is: Just pick a language and start making games, C# is probably the option that will give you results the fastest and cause you the least amount of problems, C++ will take a bit longer to get up and running with and it will cause you the most problems, there is also a risk with C++ that you pick up some very bad practices that can be timeconsuming to unlearn later on (a good book will help alot here), i strongly advice against using tutorials (video or traditional) for C++ since far too many of them are pure complete and extremely smelly crap and as a beginner you won't be able to pick out the good ones from the bad ones. (over 90%(rough estimate) of the C++ tutorials on the internet are bad and a disturbingly large portion of the bad ones are so bad that they actually do more harm than good).
Thenewboston for example is crap, (its not crap of the extremely dangerous kind but it is still crap) i'd highly avoid staying as far away from those c++ tutorials as you possibly can. (Their tutorials for other languages might be better, but even if they're not the damage caused by bad tutorials is far lower with managed languages such as C# than they are with C++)
Edited by SimonForsman, 19 August 2012 - 04:36 AM.
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The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
#8 Members - Reputation: 271
Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:31 AM
You are currently 13. So I will tell you why I think you should master C++ in the next 5 to 7 years. It might not stay the industry standard that long, but learn it still because it is a language which teaches memory management and pointers which some other languages hide.
After you have learned the c++ language you should learn application programming interfaces like OpenGL, OpenAL TCP/UDP sockets and some higher level like Ogre3D, SDL, glfw, etc. Once you are comfortable programming with c++ you can quite easily pick up other languages.
You have lots of time on your hands you can use to become great programmer and before you need to support yourself. Use this time well and you can build your indie game business already at 16 to 18, but still remember to hang out with your friends so you wont become unsocial like me, because you really most likely will not need to start your business until you are over twenty.
I remind you that knowing a programming language is not enough to create the next best seller.
After you have learned the c++ language you should learn application programming interfaces like OpenGL, OpenAL TCP/UDP sockets and some higher level like Ogre3D, SDL, glfw, etc. Once you are comfortable programming with c++ you can quite easily pick up other languages.
You have lots of time on your hands you can use to become great programmer and before you need to support yourself. Use this time well and you can build your indie game business already at 16 to 18, but still remember to hang out with your friends so you wont become unsocial like me, because you really most likely will not need to start your business until you are over twenty.
I remind you that knowing a programming language is not enough to create the next best seller.
#9 Members - Reputation: 209
Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:07 AM
Go with C# and get a few games under your belt. Try XNA with C#. Youll be able to learn the concepts of game design faster and not struggle with the complexities that are the C++ language.
Then once you have some titles COMPLETE, attempt learning something more complex with C++.
EDIT: Not sure why I got - 1, the OP obviously wants hard opinion on a direction, so I gave it.
Then once you have some titles COMPLETE, attempt learning something more complex with C++.
EDIT: Not sure why I got - 1, the OP obviously wants hard opinion on a direction, so I gave it.
Edited by tharealjohn, 19 August 2012 - 06:33 AM.
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#10 Crossbones+ - Reputation: 743
Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:00 AM
You probably won't understand most, if not all, of the things you need to know to program a computer game. I would say you need to wait at least a couple of years, as you definitely NEED Algebra I and II and Linear, but Calculus does come in handy (not COMPLETELY necessary, but almost). And that is only for the graphics part (which is surprisingly only a small part of programming a game, about 10%). You definitely aren't the first kid out of your age group running over here for advice to implement their "great new idea."
"The only thing stopping you from what you want in the future is what you want right now." - Zig Ziglar
#11 Members - Reputation: 336
Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:18 AM
You probably won't understand most, if not all, of the things you need to know to program a computer game. I would say you need to wait at least a couple of years, as you definitely NEED Algebra I and II and Linear, but Calculus does come in handy (not COMPLETELY necessary, but almost). And that is only for the graphics part (which is surprisingly only a small part of programming a game, about 10%). You definitely aren't the first kid out of your age group running over here for advice to implement their "great new idea."
And won't be the last ;)
'Knowledge isn't key, but understanding...'
My qualifcations are not here to showcase, but for those I answer and ask, to get a better idea on my knowledge.
BCS Level 2 Certificate for IT Users (ECDL Part 2)
OCR Level 2 National Award in Business
Level 2 First Diploma in Media
Level 3 Diploma in Games Design and Development Extended
BSc Hons in Computer Games Programming (Current - 1st Year)
My qualifcations are not here to showcase, but for those I answer and ask, to get a better idea on my knowledge.
BCS Level 2 Certificate for IT Users (ECDL Part 2)
OCR Level 2 National Award in Business
Level 2 First Diploma in Media
Level 3 Diploma in Games Design and Development Extended
BSc Hons in Computer Games Programming (Current - 1st Year)
#12 Members - Reputation: 132
Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:20 AM
I'm sorry I'm trying to establish my future now, based on what I love NOW and another thing, I'm not running around asking how I should be making my great game I'm simply asking what tools I should use for the near future. Dick.You probably won't understand most, if not all, of the things you need to know to program a computer game. I would say you need to wait at least a couple of years, as you definitely NEED Algebra I and II and Linear, but Calculus does come in handy (not COMPLETELY necessary, but almost). And that is only for the graphics part (which is surprisingly only a small part of programming a game, about 10%). You definitely aren't the first kid out of your age group running over here for advice to implement their "great new idea."
EDIT: Oh and btw I know Algebra, I don't know how much but a fair bit
Edited by Kripis, 19 August 2012 - 10:22 AM.
#13 Members - Reputation: 134
Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:45 PM
I'm sorry I'm trying to establish my future now, based on what I love NOW and another thing, I'm not running around asking how I should be making my great game I'm simply asking what tools I should use for the near future. Dick.
You probably won't understand most, if not all, of the things you need to know to program a computer game. I would say you need to wait at least a couple of years, as you definitely NEED Algebra I and II and Linear, but Calculus does come in handy (not COMPLETELY necessary, but almost). And that is only for the graphics part (which is surprisingly only a small part of programming a game, about 10%). You definitely aren't the first kid out of your age group running over here for advice to implement their "great new idea."
EDIT: Oh and btw I know Algebra, I don't know how much but a fair bit
1. Real math is nowhere near 13 years old ( you will get to learn it as you study so don't worry ) you can also look on http://www.khanacademy.org/ they have great tutorials on mathematics .
2. I started out with "Beginning C++ Through Game Programming" by Michael Dawson which covers the basics really good and also adds a little taste of game programming .
3. C++ vs C# : I use C# for desktop applications since they need to be done fast and they usually don't require so much optimization and I keep C++ for games ( though I'm a beginner in game development ) since I can take my time at games (because it's just a hobby at the moment ) and also they need to run smoothly .
#14 Crossbones+ - Reputation: 743
Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:39 PM
@Kripis One thing you will learn is that when people are giving you advice, you may not like it, but you don't just go call them a dick. I wasn't insulting you, I was just telling you that you aren't the first kid to think like you do and talk about it on this site. And no, you DO NOT know real math, or real computer science for that matter, both of which you need for game dev. I'm not saying give up and wait ten years and get some game development "degree" (which IMHO aren't a good choice. at all), but you do have quite a lot to learn, and by the time you learn it (I'd say a year of dedicated studying with minimal distractions, if you are really smart) you might even decide you don't "love" developing games, because the funnest part of developing isn't working on it, its seeing your finished work. And no, there are not a lot of people who can work on something as trivial as a computer game for a long amount of time. Just enjoy being a kid, and all that entails. Even if you did learn all the things, the time it takes for you to make something would almost ensure that you don't have friends, good grades, or happy guardians. I'm not saying be one of those idiotic mongrels that passes for a "good kid" these days, but still, quaternions, matrix transforms, frustum culling, entropy, data encoding, BSD sockets, function handles, random number generators, Mersenne primes, and a bazillion other topics might be a bit out of your reach now until you learn more. And no, you don't have to learn at the same pace as your educational institution. You can learn on your own, in probably a year. But like I said earlier, you have to be very SMART (not like Derpy Hooves), and dedicated to more than just making some game, you have to be dedicated to PROGRAMMING.
Edited by MrJoshL, 19 August 2012 - 01:40 PM.
"The only thing stopping you from what you want in the future is what you want right now." - Zig Ziglar
#15 Members - Reputation: 336
Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:53 PM
One thing you will learn is that when people are giving you advice, you may not like it, but you don't just go call them a dick
Good point, I don't pretend i'm an expert.. if I was, i'd be too arrogant to come here for help. You see, his point is, your young, and your aspirations will change. I can admire that you have a little fight in you for wanting to develop games, but it takes a lot of work (That isn't saying you arn't ever or ever gonna be good enough to make games, its just the fact of life. Even experienced developers find making games tough). This is going a little off topic from what you asked, so i'll keep it brief. Take advice, good or bad, you may not like the forthright ones, but I find sometimes they can be the ones to give you that advice that sets you off.
Good luck.
'Knowledge isn't key, but understanding...'
My qualifcations are not here to showcase, but for those I answer and ask, to get a better idea on my knowledge.
BCS Level 2 Certificate for IT Users (ECDL Part 2)
OCR Level 2 National Award in Business
Level 2 First Diploma in Media
Level 3 Diploma in Games Design and Development Extended
BSc Hons in Computer Games Programming (Current - 1st Year)
My qualifcations are not here to showcase, but for those I answer and ask, to get a better idea on my knowledge.
BCS Level 2 Certificate for IT Users (ECDL Part 2)
OCR Level 2 National Award in Business
Level 2 First Diploma in Media
Level 3 Diploma in Games Design and Development Extended
BSc Hons in Computer Games Programming (Current - 1st Year)
#16 Members - Reputation: 3714
Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:32 PM
You probably won't understand most, if not all, of the things you need to know to program a computer game. I would say you need to wait at least a couple of years, as you definitely NEED Algebra I and II and Linear, but Calculus does come in handy (not COMPLETELY necessary, but almost). And that is only for the graphics part (which is surprisingly only a small part of programming a game, about 10%). You definitely aren't the first kid out of your age group running over here for advice to implement their "great new idea."
Thats a bit harsh, you don't need more than extremely basic algebra and a bit of trigonometry(allthough for some games trig isn't needed either) to make a 2D game, and that has normally been covered in school by most 13 year olds, (i made my first 2D game when i was 12 using pascal/BGI and my first properly polished 2D game when i was 13 with pascal/x86 asm, it wasn't easy but it was doable, Yes, for 3D games it helps a lot to know linear algebra (it is not necessary though, with solid trig knowledge you can get things working anyway and today there are tons of helpful libraries that abstract away alot of the really nasty math for you, There is also absolutely nothing that prevents the OP from picking up any additional math he needs/wants as he goes along, If he has a decent math teacher he/she will be more than happy to help him out if he has math related questions. (and if his math teacher is crap or far too busy to help students learn(allthough, atleast where i'm from it is a teachers job to help students learn) there are tons of helpful people here on gdnet who can help)
There is no reason to wait, just jump in and get started, he has far more time now when he is young than he'll have later in life.
Edited by SimonForsman, 19 August 2012 - 02:33 PM.
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
#17 Crossbones+ - Reputation: 743
Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:04 PM
@SimonForsman I never said there was a huge barrier. I just said that it would take about a year probably, and he needs to find out if he is even interested enough. That is my point in a nutshell.
"The only thing stopping you from what you want in the future is what you want right now." - Zig Ziglar
#18 Members - Reputation: 131
Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:41 PM
I think you can make it with Unreal3. Because no one can solve all the problems. I'm only 15, so I never wanted to develop a game by myself.Good games require good teams. But if you really want to learn a programming language.C# is better.
#20 Crossbones+ - Reputation: 3558
Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:27 PM
Depends on what game you want to make, if you are aiming for a 3D shooter or such you'll need a solid knowledge of linear algebra and geometry, but if you're just making a tetris or a simple 2D game, some basic coordinate geometry and logic will do.Is it true that you need to know REAL MATH cause I always wanted to build a game, but now I know I have to wait.
