Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account


Real time enemy/team AI and turn based enemy/team AI complexity difference


Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.

  • You cannot reply to this topic
11 replies to this topic

#1 dre38w   Members   -  Reputation: 91

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:13 PM

Which do you guys think has more complexity to it when coding it into a game? Real time battling, like action games, shooters and what have you, or turn based RPG battling?
Developers, developers, developers, developers.

Sponsor:

#2 slicer4ever   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2602

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:37 PM

Which do you guys think has more complexity to it when coding it into a game? Real time battling, like action games, shooters and what have you, or turn based RPG battling?


I think turn based is potentially far more complicated, with real time systems, you can skate by on some simple ai, because things are happening constantly that the player isn't always going to notice that the ai is using simple mechanism's. but with turn based systems, if an ai makes a stupid move, the player is going to scratch their head wondering why they did that.
Check out https://www.facebook.com/LiquidGames for some great games made by me on the Playstation Mobile market.

#3 dre38w   Members   -  Reputation: 91

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:08 PM

That makes sense. But I've played some shooters with their share of dumb AI and it's quite noticable. Isn't it just some basic checks for turn based? "Enemy timer bar filled. Now allow enemy to attack." Maybe some "Okay an enemies health is low allow it to heal itself OR have another enemy heal." But I suppose a team AI is much more complex. And it would depend upon the actual tasks they're required to do. You would think it's the same concept though right? "Team's timer filled. Allow team member to attack. If a team member's health is low, heal them." Now I very well could be over simplifying it but thoughts?
Developers, developers, developers, developers.

#4 slicer4ever   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2602

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:12 PM

It's not that it isn't possible to do, from a computational standpoint, you can do more work on preparing a turn-based ai's next move, then you can in a real time environment, but it does come with the price of making sure the AI is complex enough not to look stupid.

sure, real time ai can still look dumb, no doubt. but i do believe it's possible to make them look less stupid with mechanics such as "look for enemy", "find cover" "retaliate". some games go more in-depth and add flanking maneuvers for team based attacking. but generally it's pretty basic as an example, playing mass effect 2 was simple when you realized that all you really had to do was sit behind cover until the enemy reloaded, since they rarely really advanced on you, whereas in halo 3, some enemy's would go around, while others attacked at the front.

but at the end of the day, good ai is important regardless of which environment you work in, if the player isn't being challenged by the ai, then it's probably not a very good AI.

Edited by slicer4ever, 19 August 2012 - 08:13 PM.

Check out https://www.facebook.com/LiquidGames for some great games made by me on the Playstation Mobile market.

#5 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2221

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:06 AM

We would have to define "complexity" before answering this question in a meaningful way. Also... complexity of what? The code? The coding process? The resulting behaviors?
Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC

Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Co-founder of the AI Game Programmers Guild
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI

Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play

"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#6 Álvaro   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 10630

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:10 AM

Which do you guys think requires more effort when playing it? Team sports, like soccer, water polo and what have you, or individual sports?

#7 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2221

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:13 AM

Which do you guys think requires more effort when playing it? Team sports, like soccer, water polo and what have you, or individual sports?

Nice... well done, sir.
Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC

Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Co-founder of the AI Game Programmers Guild
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI

Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play

"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#8 dre38w   Members   -  Reputation: 91

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:44 AM

I mean in coding it. I was having a debate with someone about what would be more complex to code. He figures smart turn based AI is more complex to code and get right than smart shooter/action game AI. I wanted to get other coders' opinions though.

But there are quite a lot of shooters that have pretty straight forward AI. I mean, I've coded some basic AI, waypoints, attacking, jumping over things that are in front, losing sight of player, etc. But pathfinding I would have no idea where to start. haha But turn based, like Final Fantasy for example, probably has its own level of complexity when coding it. But at least there I'd have a pretty good idea where to start.

You don't seem to have to take too much what the player is doing into consideration with turn based enemies. Team AI probably more so. But even then, with the team AI attacking enemies, it's almost the same concept as the enemy AI. I'm probably wrong though. haha
Developers, developers, developers, developers.

#9 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2221

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:01 PM

Dude... listen to us a second... your question is impossible to answer. AI is exactly what you make of it -- if you write complex code, it is complex. If you write simple code it is simple. Your entire premise is based on something that is not even defined. Stop worrying about it.
Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC

Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Co-founder of the AI Game Programmers Guild
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI

Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play

"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#10 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5466

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:34 PM

But there are quite a lot of shooters that have pretty straight forward AI. I mean, I've coded some basic AI, waypoints, attacking, jumping over things that are in front, losing sight of player, etc. But pathfinding I would have no idea where to start. haha But turn based, like Final Fantasy for example, probably has its own level of complexity when coding it. But at least there I'd have a pretty good idea where to start.


Final Fantasy isn't exactly a good example of turnbased AI, it barely requires any intelligence from either the player or the computer.

When you talk to a programmer about turn based AI they're far more likely to think of games like Civilization where there are long term strategic choices and thousands of possible actions each turn.
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#11 dre38w   Members   -  Reputation: 91

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:32 PM

Dude... listen to us a second... your question is impossible to answer. AI is exactly what you make of it -- if you write complex code, it is complex. If you write simple code it is simple. Your entire premise is based on something that is not even defined. Stop worrying about it.


Okay, fair enough. I actually just coded some simple thing to see what I'll be looking at. A little test. It feels like this is going to be relatively less complex than what the other guy wants anyway. haha

Thanks guys. Sorry if I sounded like an idiot.
Developers, developers, developers, developers.

#12 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 896

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:04 PM

I can't even imagine an AI that would be able to beat a human at Dominions 3, so I would say that turn based is not at all simple.
Real time usually has more pathfinding issues as well as you can't have a 10 minute long update like Dominions 3 has for the AI in very long games.




Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.



PARTNERS