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Is the design enough?


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#1 paylot   Members   -  Reputation: 91

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 02:57 PM

Hello. I dont have any skills at game coding, not at all. Its just my head is full of ideas and I understand the game mechanics. My question is, if I make a very detailed game design, including math, geometry etc. is there a chance that someone will be actually interested in my design/concept - paying me for it?

Thanks

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#2 Casey Hardman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2208

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:33 PM

This is a question that's asked quite a lot. In the Game Design forum, there's a box to the right-top of the list of threads. I suggest reading the first article there:

"I have a game idea! ... What now?"

In short, the answer is no. People usually don't buy GDDs, even if they are very detailed. The problem is that making a game is hard work. The GDD isn't very valuable to developers, because there's so much more to making a game than the design: programming, art, music, sound effects, etc.

The article pretty much sums it up. I suggest you take a gander at some of the other articles on that site as well. It answers a lot of frequently asked questions.

#3 paylot   Members   -  Reputation: 91

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 07:06 PM

You think that even if the idea is unique (and I mean really unique) - nobody will want it only because "It is just an idea?"

I mean, isn't it all (games, novels, movies, etc.) just and only about the prime idea and the rest (the actual work - programming, art, music, sound effects, etc.) can only "boost" or "kill" the quality?

Additionally, Isn't a good GDD also the part of the overall work on the game? I spent hundreds of hours writing my GDD and its now more then 4000 pages.
Also, it contains the story script, art concept and notes for the music.
And of course, I can go with much less then 50% of the profits. Why it cant have at least a minimum chance to succeed?


(Excuse my editing, it is 3 AM here)

Edited by paylot, 01 September 2012 - 07:19 PM.


#4 Tom Sloper   Moderators   -  Reputation: 9870

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:14 PM

Okay, then. Now read this and this and this.
-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com

Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.

#5 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 19556

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 11:24 PM

You think that even if the idea is unique (and I mean really unique) - nobody will want it only because "It is just an idea?"

I mean, isn't it all (games, novels, movies, etc.) just and only about the prime idea and the rest (the actual work - programming, art, music, sound effects, etc.) can only "boost" or "kill" the quality?

Nope. An idea is just a piece of the whole picture. Take the wildly successful Halflife game series: You're a scientist with a crowbar in a underground labratory overrun with aliens and soldiers trying to kill you. Many other games already had that "idea", but Halflife's gold was how it was executed.
Take World of Warcraft: You are in a fantasy world. With orcs and Elves. And you have swords and magic. And it's online. Sound like every other MMO out there? Yep, but they executed it way better then their competitors at the time of their launch.
Modern Warfare: Have guns, shoot other players. Billion dollar franchise. Because of quality, not idea.
Halo: Have guns, shoot other players. In SPACE! With aliens! Billion dollar franchise. Because of quality, not idea.

Mario: Consistently high level of quality = long term success. Billion dollar franchise.
Spyro the Dragon*: High level quality degraded over time = No longer much of a success.
Banjo Kazooie: High level quality, degraded over time = No longer much of a success.
Sonic the Hedgehog: High level quality, degraded over time = No longer much of a success.

What is the difference between Mario, Spyro, Banjo Kazooie, and Sonic? The level of polish put into each title.

*Spyro recently was rebooted as a new franchise by a new company using new mechanics, and is currently really successful. The reason why it had to be rebooted and revived is because the old franchise (which is what I was referring to above) was a dead beaten horse from lack of quality games in the series after the original two or three games were followed by several low quality sequels.

An idea on it's own can be great (Tetris! Rubik's cube!). But an idea on it's own doesn't mean it will be great. Angry Birds is nothing new; but its execution made Rovio millions. In indie games Braid is nothing new (not even the time mechanic), but its high level of polish made it very successful (also made millions). Sure, sometimes there are flukes like Minecraft that became wildly successful despite not being new OR highly polished, but that's not the norm.

The elbow grease put into something is actually more important than the idea itself. Sure, you can't polish junk... but there are loads and loads of non-junk ideas that you can polish. If I'm going to provide the polish, and I need an idea, while will I pay you for your "awesome unique idea" (in your biased opinion), when I have my own "awesome unique ideas" (in my biased opinion), or I can find thousands of great ideas just laying about?
The polish makes the game, the idea is what starts the game. Seeds are cheap. Farming the seeds for 9 months before harvest, the nutrients in the ground, and the rain, is what makes the seeds into wheat. Then the work of grinding the wheat into flour, and then baking the flour into bread, is what makes actual food. So no, most people won't pay you for your seeds. We'd be happy to teach you how to farm, however, so you can grow your seeds into your own wheat.

I'm not saying your idea isn't great - but I am saying your idea as long as it is just 'an idea' is worth nothing. What it produces could be worth alot, but it's the process of producing it that costs the money - there are many ideas that could be worth alot.

Further, many people think having an idea is game design. Or writing a plot is game design. Or creating levels is game design. Game design is designing gameplay mechanics and iterating over them and tweaking them and balancing them. Writing plot is writing plot, creating characters is creating characters, designing worlds is designing worlds, designing gameplay is game design. It's all part of game development.

I don't want to be a game-play mechanic designer. I want to be a world crafter. What part of making games (game development) is the part that actually interests you? Hone your skills in that area (and mess about in other areas to round yourself out), and pursue a career there.

If an idea pops into your head, and you enjoy expanding on it and playing with and developing that idea for a few weeks, do you really expect to be able to turn around and sell the idea?

We all think the part of the game we work on is the most important part - because we're passionate about it. But no, an idea is not the majority of, nor the most important part, of a game. Not commercially successful billion dollar games, and not high quality in-it-for-the-art indie games. High quality games come from the "high quality" part - the effort and refinement and repeated applications of polish over an already stable foundation. An idea is part of the foundation, yes, but not the only part and not the largest part. And a good game without polish is almost (but not quite) as bad as a bad game with polish.

Additionally, Isn't a good GDD also the part of the overall work on the game? I spent hundreds of hours writing my GDD and its now more then 4000 pages.
Also, it contains the story script, art concept and notes for the music.
And of course, I can go with much less then 50% of the profits. Why it cant have at least a minimum chance to succeed?

100 million dollars to make an AAA game is on the low side of things. (And marketing is probably triple that)
100+ people working on it full time for 18 or more months is normal for a triple-A game.

The profits (a gamble or investment) go to the people putting in the money to bankroll the whole thing. The salary (regardless of the success of the game) goes to the people putting in the work. Even 1% of the profits would be too ridiculous. If a game made 200 million, you want 2 million for your hundreds of hours? Let's say you spent over 200 hours on the design document, and want 1% of the 200 million profit. Your time is really worth $10,000 an hour salary?

Your 200 hours deserves more recognition or payment than (50 hours a week for 50 weeks in a year for a year and a half) 3750 hours of every single other person working on the game? I know you aren't saying that, but I'm trying to show (through extreme comparisons) why it just doesn't make sense.

Game studios have full time game-play mechanic designers working on their games, and full time art designers, level designers, character designers, sound designers, music composers, writers, artists, 3d modelling, etc... working on their games.

My advice: Find what actually interests you, and pursue it, and either go independent with it, or pursue a career in it.
When I say 'what interests you', I don't mean "game development", I mean find what part(s) of game development interests you the most.

You made something in your spare time, that you enjoyed working on: Awesome! You don't have the funding or the skills (programming, 2D art, 3D modelling, music composing, etc...) to actually make it into a game: That really sucks, and I know how that feels.

So: Why not learn the neccesary skills to actually make it, by investing your time (which you have plenty of) and converting your 'time' resources into 'skill' resources? You can then use your 'skills' to operate on your 'ideas' to produce 'moneys'. But first, you have to get those skills.

It takes an average of 10,000 hours to master a subject supposedly. If you start learning to program now, or make art now, or write now, in 6 or 7 years you'll be really really good at it - if you actually enjoy doing it. Many people will say, "6 or 7 years? Forget that!", and six or seven years later, they'll be just as inexperienced as they are now, and working a lame job they don't like. The effort of those 6 or 7 years in pursuing what you enjoy doing is what will get you a salary or a share of profits. Not the 200 (or 2000) hours you put in for fun doing something that you wanted to do.

I'll let you in on a secret: If you find what part of game development you really actually love, and you really set out to hone your craft, you'll find out that you'd enjoy the craft more than your ideas. For me, I love world design (creativity) and I love programming (more scientific). I only got into programming as a means to get to craft worlds, but after the first two years, I suddenly realized that I actually enjoy programming in and of itself, just as much or maybe even more than crafting worlds. As I pursued several other skills to allow me to craft worlds, some I find out I enjoy, others I find out I'm indifferent to or not particularly fond of.

Go make some (small) games! And try your hands at a hundred different things (scripting, programming, character design, writing, animation, 3D modelling, concept art, composing, ambient sound design, level layout, testing, etc...), and see which ones fit your taste buds. Then gone hone your craft in two or three of them, really focusing on them, over the next decade. The "next decade" may sound depressing, but not when you realize how fun these things can be if they are the ones you enjoy. But until you start enjoying them, anything that denies you instant gratification will make you want to throw up you hands, say "forget it", and walk away.

Here ends a rambling post written too late at night.

Edited by Servant of the Lord, 01 September 2012 - 11:25 PM.

It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
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#6 paylot   Members   -  Reputation: 91

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:26 AM

I completely understand your point, maybe I did not explained it adequately.

Nope. An idea is just a piece of the whole picture. Take the wildly successful Halflife game series: You're a scientist with a crowbar in a underground labratory overrun with aliens and soldiers trying to kill you. Many other games already had that "idea", but Halflife's gold was how it was executed.
Take World of Warcraft: You are in a fantasy world. With orcs and Elves. And you have swords and magic. And it's online. Sound like every other MMO out there? Yep, but they executed it way better then their competitors at the time of their launch.
Modern Warfare: Have guns, shoot other players. Billion dollar franchise. Because of quality, not idea.
Halo: Have guns, shoot other players. In SPACE! With aliens! Billion dollar franchise. Because of quality, not idea.

Mario: Consistently high level of quality = long term success. Billion dollar franchise.
Spyro the Dragon*: High level quality degraded over time = No longer much of a success.
Banjo Kazooie: High level quality, degraded over time = No longer much of a success.
Sonic the Hedgehog: High level quality, degraded over time = No longer much of a success.


I'am NOT placing only the basics of the game. Like I explain what the game is about and that more or less about it. In my GDD I do everything.
Lets take the World of Warcraft as an example: I write the story line, I make the races, the classes, the zones, the quests/tasks, the talent points, the skills - I make a name for the skill, I explain how it looks, what kind of sound the usage of the skill makes/what sound it does on impact, and I do complete maths.

Basically, if you take my GDD, you don't have to ask What kind of enemy is supposed to be here? What is his name? His attributes? How he will react? etc. etc. You just write the code.

I don't know... I just think this is the most important, the most valuable part in the game development. Yes, there is the hard work of coding, recording the music, creating meshes, textures etc. but someone have to bring the in "the game" in the first place, or not? You also cant make a good movie without a good script. You cant write a good book without a set of ideas.

If I come to a prestige novel writer and tell him: "Look, I have an idea which will yell another Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter success." (And I'am actually not lying and it really does have the potential). Even if its only an idea and HE is the one who have to write it, can and will he just send me to hell? I don't think so.

#7 kunos   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2207

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:53 AM

Even if its only an idea and HE is the one who have to write it, can and will he just send me to hell? I don't think so.


why don't you try? You'll find their answer very similar to the ones you are getting here.

Look, there are some smart and experienced people trying to give you advices, did you even bother to read the links they have posted to you? They should clarify in your head that you are just one more "idea guy" in the sea of "idea guys" that appear weekly on this website and every other game development website in the world... nothing less, nothing more. You're so common that some guys that got fed up answering the same questions over and over wrote down a full coverage of the matter so they can link it... the problem is, idea guys don't seem to be able to read or research, I wonder how you can expect people to read your stuff in return?

You can either understand the situation that that your idea and GDD won't interest anybody unless you bring it one step forward (ie. prototype state)... or, you can live in denial and in the delusion that you can change the facts with your rants... it's up to you.

If you are serious about game programming, invest time to learn the tools that will allow you to get into this world and build the minimal credibility that might allow you get people's trust. Videogames are software.. you can't ignore this fact.

You don't design WoW as your first game just as you don't go play Federer at Wimbledon on your first tennis game. It's a step by step process that requires dedication, talent and patience...

Start with a small game that you can tackle yourself with Flash or some GameToyWhatever tool, get it done, go through the process of adapting your wonderful "idea" to something playable.. you'll find that so many things that looked So right on paper just don't translate well when you actually play it. Game design is an iterative process because software development is an iterative process.

if you understand that, you might get a chance at making games, if you don't understand that, you'll probably disappear just like the other weekly "idea guy" ... up to you.
Stefano Casillo
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#8 Olof Hedman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2826

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:47 AM

Just something to think about..

Having no knowledge of game development, its very likely that your GDD contains huge holes that you aren't even aware of, even with 4000 pages.
Even if you did have experience, its still very likely that it contains holes, and things that when actually implemented will turn out to suck.

My point is a GDD is typically nothing static, but a living document.
Its not a recipe that someone writes, gives to the studio, and they then implement.
Sure, there are studios that work kind of like that, (though YOU have to pay THEM) but the games they create tend to suck.

The whole notion of "I have a GDD and I want to sell it so someone can implement it" is a big misunderstanding of how game development actually works...
(and of how you create great products in general imo...)

Edited by Olof Hedman, 03 September 2012 - 12:20 AM.


#9 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3702

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:59 AM

If I come to a prestige novel writer and tell him: "Look, I have an idea which will yell another Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter success." (And I'am actually not lying and it really does have the potential). Even if its only an idea and HE is the one who have to write it, can and will he just send me to hell? I don't think so.

Yes, he will send you to hell. Check websites of those writes, I find this frequently in their FAQs :) And it applies not only to famous writers, it applies to *ALL* writers, without ANY exceptions.

That's how it works. Ideas alone are worth less than zero. And you can ask as many people (except those who "have ideas and look for others to make it reality" of course :D) as you want, you will always get this answer.

It's your dream. You pay for it with your own sweat and your own blood.

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#10 alison.brooks   Members   -  Reputation: 73

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 04:50 AM

The first mistake you have made: You came to these forums.

Opinions of all these people are irrelevant. You know why? Because its all about your nationality... Some nations values more the work-power, some the ideas. Evidently, the nation you live in is preferring the ideas over work-power. Where are you from? I guess its some communistic or post-communistic nation.

The question is: Are there some good game developing companies in your country?
If yes: Keep trying. Your GDD have THE value.
If not: Its a waste of time. The America/Eastern Europe will not buy it. These nations lacks the work-power, but they are full of ideas ...

Edited by alison.brooks, 02 September 2012 - 04:51 AM.


#11 Madhed   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2974

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 05:13 AM

The first mistake you have made: You came to these forums.

Opinions of all these people are irrelevant. You know why? Because its all about your nationality... Some nations values more the work-power, some the ideas. Evidently, the nation you live in is preferring the ideas over work-power. Where are you from? I guess its some communistic or post-communistic nation.

The question is: Are there some good game developing companies in your country?
If yes: Keep trying. Your GDD have THE value.
If not: Its a waste of time. The America/Eastern Europe will not buy it. These nations lacks the work-power, but they are full of ideas ...


Complete utter B.S.

No one is going to buy a GDD from a nobody who hasn't shown the skills to successfuly lead a team of developers. Sorry, but that's just the way it works.
And 4000(!) pages of game design? Come on, that's just ridiculous. Usually the first design document iteration should be as concise and high level as possible. Game design is (should be) an iterative process, where you implement > test > identitfy problems > redesign > implement... until you have a polished product.

That might sound discouraging but please notice that every once in a while that kind of thread pops up here.
Why don't you reduce your gdd to its essence and try to build a team with which you implement that design. If you have a fun, working game you will have a muuuuch bigger chance to make any money from it.

cheers

#12 paylot   Members   -  Reputation: 91

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 06:04 AM

Where are you from?


Czech Republic

#13 Shaquil   Members   -  Reputation: 819

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 09:09 AM

The problem is, there are already amazing, talented designers pitching their ideas to big companies like EA, but they've actually proven themselves as designers. They have games to backup their claim that they know what fun is. If you don't wanna make music, aren't an artist, can't write, can't do voice overs, and refuse to code, then there's one final option: Find a programmer, an artist, a musician, and a writer. Convince them to work on your project, and get started. If you can somehow pull this miracle off, and get the game(probably a very small game; definitely not your opus--yet) completed and up on the web for others to see, you'll be able to move on to more incrementally larger projects. You never have to know what the hell inheritance or polymorphism is, and you get to do what you want: Design. With those games under your belt, you'll have more clout and actually maybe might somehow get a chance to work with a huge publisher.

That's your absolute best bet.

But remember, there are a ton of people just like you who are also multitalented. I'm a writer, musician and programmer. If I've got a game idea, implementation for me only requires some placeholder art; I can do the rest on my own. I can show that to a true artist and get them onboard if they like my game. On the other hand, you have your design and your design only. It's a harder sell, right? You've got a tough, tough road ahead, but if this is what you want to do then you're going to have to start small.

Edit:: Some of the replies here were probably very harsh and cynical. If so, I hope you don't take those comments as representative of the gamedev community as a whole, or even the general disposition of those who made the comments. It's just that topics like yours are brought up all the time, and people get frustrated having to repeat themselves and still get the same defiant "No, I'm different! I know I can be different!" Maybe you are different. Regardless, I just wanted to say something about the reaction you've been getting.

Edited by Shaquil, 02 September 2012 - 09:16 AM.


#14 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 19556

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:54 AM

I'am NOT placing only the basics of the game. Like I explain what the game is about and that more or less about it. In my GDD I do everything.
Lets take the World of Warcraft as an example: I write the story line, I make the races, the classes, the zones, the quests/tasks, the talent points, the skills - I make a name for the skill, I explain how it looks, what kind of sound the usage of the skill makes/what sound it does on impact, and I do complete maths.

Yes, I understood that already.
Are you actually skilled at all that? Are you actually a good writer? Many people think they are, but what do other people think of your writing. Do you have the necessary skill (from 10,000 hours of practical experience) to really balance the skills?

Basically, if you take my GDD, you don't have to ask What kind of enemy is supposed to be here? What is his name? His attributes? How he will react? etc. etc. You just write the code.

I "just" write the code, draw the art, model the 3D models, rig the 3D models, animate the 3D models, translate the text into a dozen languages, compose the music, make the sound effects, write the graphic shaders, layout the GUI in culturally-aware ways, draw the 2D textures, balance the server loads of a 5 million players across multiple machines located in geographically distributed areas, handle local government tax laws, legal protection from other companies wanting to sue us, implement credit card transactions (legal-wise and software-wise), and handle two hundred other odds and ends.

But thanks for doing (what you think is) all the hard stuff, and letting us "just" do the rest.
You took one thing (enemy design) and started breaking it down bit by bit. I can take any one of the things I mentioned above, and break it down into a dozen more things, or even hundreds or thousands. If writing the code is really that easy, then every game would look like the best game and would be without flaws or bugs. That's not to say programming is harder than writing... but it's certainly not less than it.

I don't know... I just think this is the most important, the most valuable part in the game development.

Yes, because you did it. And you are passionate about your work. That's a good thing. Every musician needs to think, "My music is the most valuable part of the game, so I need to make it the best it can be". And every artist needs to think the same, and every writer, and every programmer. But at the same time, in humility, they need to acknowledge and understand that they are also a single part of a whole, to allow them to get along with, and work alongside, all 20, 50, or 100 other people on the team.

Yes, there is the hard work of coding, recording the music, creating meshes, textures etc. but someone have to bring the in "the game" in the first place, or not?

Yeah, a group of people (paid regular salaries) working full time on it from creation of the idea, to continually enhancing and improving and refining the idea all through development until the very end. One person leads it, and the leader is the one who (hopefully) has the most practical experience from working on previous titles and so was promoted to that position by management.

You also cant make a good movie without a good script.

Sure you can. You can make very successful and popular movies without a good script if every other part of the movie can compensate. But you can make better movies with a good script AND good everything else.

The script writer doesn't get a percentage of the movie profits, he sells his script for a flat fee, as far as I known. His part is important, but other parts are equally or more important. Other parts including: Stage setting, costume design, acting, directing, camera work, lighting, special effects, etc...

A bad script can be made up for by other parts (as can bad lighting or bad costume design or bad special effects). Bad directing or bad acting cannot be made up for - ruins the entire movie. So you can't say that the script is more important than the directing. I'm not saying that the directing is more important than the script either - but it does have a greater impact (in my opinion).

Idea: Kid finds a alien and befriends it. Excellent execution: E.T.
Idea: War between an empire and a rebellion set in space. Excellent execution: Star Wars.

You cant write a good book without a set of ideas.

Here's a good book idea: A lawyer set in the south (every John Grisham novel - made him millions, and I've enjoyed reading them). A CIA operative racing against the clock to stop a war (every Tom Clancy novel - made him millions, and I've enjoyed reading them).

Execution is everything. Ideas are a part of the execution, but don't break or make the execution on their own.

If I come to a prestige novel writer and tell him: "Look, I have an idea which will yell another Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter success." ... Even if its only an idea and HE is the one who have to write it, can and will he just send me to hell?

Lord of the Rings wasn't successful until much later. It's success was polish and detail of the world created, not the idea itself. The idea was a rehashing of previous European fairy-tales re-imagined for England. The polish and detail was the time invested in characters, fictional languages, and world. In sort, it was the execution of the writing behind the idea, not the idea itself.

Harry Potter wasn't superbly written, and the idea was nothing new. It wasn't polished too well (but it wasn't butchered either), at least not the first few books that kicked off it's popularity. Harry Potter falls under the same "Fluke" category as Minecraft. Unbeknownst to everybody (including the author), it just happened to be the right idea at the right time and became wildly successful. This from someone who's read all 7 books, and from someone who owns three copies of Minecraft.

(And I'am actually not lying and it really does have the potential).

I believe you! But you don't believe me, when I say that many many many ideas have that potential. Many ideas are good ideas - really great ideas. New ideas. But potential does not equal money. Execution on the potential is what makes that potential a success or not. Poor execution ruins it. Great execution makes it. Execution is the deciding factor that makes a good idea into a successful idea. That execution has the choice of a few hundred good ideas to be directed at (and a few thousand bad ideas)... but the execution is the deciding factor of success or not, not the idea itself.

Don't get me wrong: The idea is very important. But there are many great ideas. There are no lack of them available. There is a lack of people who can execute upon ideas to a high level of quality. There is a lack of funding to support those people while they work. The skills get paid, and the funding gets returned to the investor hopefully multiplied. But if I choose great idea A over great idea B, a great game still gets made and still becomes a success.

You want money. Awesome. You want to be paid for something you did in your free time. Full understandable. But very unlikely.
However, if you try to execute the idea, you might make something of it.

I have a great idea for a song, but I don't have the voice to sing it, the skills to play the instruments, the equipment to record it, or the money to market it. So what am I left with? A great idea for a song. Nothing more.
However, if I spend a few years learning to play guitar, and if I invest my own money to pay a recording studio to record it, and if I sing it anyway with my shaky voice, and then I upload it online, my poor prototype might catch the attention of someone who can actually execute on it what the idea deserves - many a well known musician will cover it. Maybe. But if I just leave it as an idea, then it's just an idea - even if it's a great idea.

The idea part isn't the hard part. I can prove it with one simple equation: 1 person + lots of free time + sweat and blood / zero experience = A great idea. Right? Is this not the formula you used?
So how can I calculate the value of that? Let's try two different ways:

First, let's calculate the value if we assume the effort is worth the money:
((sweat and blood * lots of free time) * hourly wage) / number of people = ???
((200 hours) * $20.00) / 1 = $4,000

Second, let's try to calculate the value by scarcity of this resource:
Number of people ... with lots of free time ... who aren't lazy (sweat and blood) ... but have zero experience ...
6 billion (population of the earth) ... 350 million (population of the USA) ... 200 million ... 150 million ...

Right? I know this is rather harsh, but I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm trying to inform you of the reality, and then point you in the right direction.

What is the right direction?
Number of people ... with the skill to make games ... who aren't lazy (sweat and blood) ... but have years of experience ...
6 billion (population of the earth) ... 50 million ... 40 million ... 20 million ...
(Randomly guessing at the numbers)

If ideas on their own were worth money, 6 billion people would be rich. If only good ideas were worth money, 5 billion people would be rich. If only great ideas were worth money, 3 billion people would be rich. If only the super best most fantasticly uniquely incredible ideas were worth money, 500 million people would still be rich.

But an idea, without the effort to back it, is not worth much. Sorry, but that's the actual real truth. I'm not just saying this because I'm jealous of your idea (I also have great ideas!). I'm not saying this because I'm jealous of your passion (I also have passion!). I'm saying this because if you want to actually have your game made (A), or if you want to actually get paid to make games (B), there is an actual path you can take. It won't fall into your lap (but you have passion), and it will take time and effort (but you have years of life remaining and determination and a willingness to learn).

A) To have your game made (and maybe profit off it), learn to make games so you can execute on your own idea. (Indie game development)
B) To get paid for making games (and earn a stable living), learn to make games so you can be hired by a studio. (Studio game development)

Really! Truly! Find out what part of game development you really enjoy, learn the skills behind that part of development, hone your skills through practice and experience, and pursue what you enjoy doing!

Or put your fingers in your ears, and tell us that we're wrong, and your case is super different and people should give you money for your idea on it's own.
Sure you didn't hear what you wanted to hear, and that's unfortunate, but it's the truth. But there is hope, as I explained above, if you are willing to put in more effort and more time (it takes years).

We're not just being mean or grumpy - we're being as polite and helpful as we know how, even if the truth that you don't want to hear is harsher than you expected.
It's hard trying to give hope and point into the right direction someone who doesn't want to hear what we have to say, because he came with a preset answer that he was wanting us to give, and absolutely doesn't want to hear anything but the answer he wants. Please don't be that type of person.

We didn't misunderstand you the first time - really. Posted Image

Edited by Servant of the Lord, 02 September 2012 - 11:06 AM.

It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God.
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#15 aattss   Members   -  Reputation: 387

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 06:03 PM

I hope I'm not beating the dead horse, but

1. You can't tell if something is professional unless it's peer reviewed by other professionals.
2. As one person (Extra Credits) once said, every budding game designer has at least 5 ideas. In other words, having an idea doesn't make you special.

#16 Caldenfor   Members   -  Reputation: 323

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:32 PM

What a depressing thread... cynicism rains supreme, but it is not all the fault of some, but a corruption of the majority.

It is a shame our world shuns any attempt at creativity, whether or not it is not equitable. Hopefully you have put forth the effort required to create one heck of a GDD and that you can find a team to help create a proof of concept. Start small, the basics, and go from there.

I won't tell you what you can and cannot do, but do not expect words of kindness, unfortunately as already pointed out, everyone feels their ideas are greater than great. I pity those with the technical skill that cannot abide by taking in information and advice from others while I applaud those that do. Ideas alone can be worthless or even great, but the ideas must be presented in a way that lets them shine. Continue developing your GDD and do with it what you can. Try and present it to as many open minds/ears as possible and accept criticism and advice with humility. If you have the fortune to succeed you can look back at those that shunned you, but I hope you are more capable of tolerance and show the patience required to be hospitable in return.

Hrm, now where did I leave that beer?

Edited by Caldenfor, 02 September 2012 - 11:36 PM.


#17 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3702

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:04 AM

I pity those with the technical skill that cannot abide by taking in information and advice from others [...]

I wonder, where the myth that tech people are too inimaginative to design a game comes from. In my entire life I have not met even one coder that would be uncapable of designing a simple game. I mean, what kind of talent it takes to design a "fly the space ship to the top of the screen and shot at incoming enemy ships while watching your lives/energy go down and your score go up"? A lot of games are really, really trivial to design (not all, designing a strategy game require a true designer, also RPGs with their quests might benefit greatly from a pro designer).

The division for tech talented people and design talented people is artificial and untrue. Basicly ALL tech people (with so few exceptions it is not worth mentioning) are also quite decent designers. I mean, if they were not why would they learn how to code in the first place? :) All those tech people are tech people because they were designers first (wanted to make games) and they become tech people because it was helping in their design part.

So, a designer that never switched to a tech/art person and stayed "just a designer" forever is simply someone who was not excited enough about making games.

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#18 Olof Hedman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2826

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 03:11 AM

The division for tech talented people and design talented people is artificial and untrue. Basicly ALL tech people (with so few exceptions it is not worth mentioning) are also quite decent designers. I mean, if they were not why would they learn how to code in the first place? Posted Image All those tech people are tech people because they were designers first (wanted to make games) and they become tech people because it was helping in their design part.


I'm not so sure of "ALL", there's a lot of "code monkeys" out there, that seem perfectly happy to never personally develop or make any innovation at all for them selfs.
They just want to write code someone else tells them to from 8-5 and then cash out their check and forget about it.
It's of course partly the organisations fault, but not everyone are creative Posted Image

I do though agree that there really is nothing mutually exclusive between the two, and most if not all that are involved in game development, specially in small teams, have a lot of creativity, and must have to do their job properly.
To create a great product, you need a lot of passion, and you need it from _all_ members of the team, and make all feel like they "own" it, and get their input considered.
Creating and maintaining such a team is not easy, and ability to do so is a big part of what makes "wannabes" become "successful".
Most that do have strong technical or art skill or both too, because that makes it a lot easier to lead-by-example, and competent people tend to respect competence.

Edited by Olof Hedman, 03 September 2012 - 03:13 AM.


#19 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3702

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 03:30 AM

I'm not so sure of "ALL", there's a lot of "code monkeys" out there, that seem perfectly happy to never personally develop or make any innovation at all for them selfs. They just want to write code someone else tells them to from 8-5 and then cash out their check and forget about it.

Yes and no :) Yes, if we talk about the world's population as a whole there are many programmers that have aboslutely no design skills/talent, they make business software. But when it comes to the subset of programmers that work in the gaming industry they ALL have design skills of some sort, that's why they find making games more fun than making business software.

Note that being a programmer in the gaming industry basicly always means less income than if you were a programmer in business software industry. So, by evolution, only those programmers who have design skills (desire to make games) are in the gaming industry. This almost guarantee that any programmer making a game will have at least some basic design talent (if you don't care if you are making a game or a biz software you will go for the better paid task, which is not games for sure :D).

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#20 Olof Hedman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2826

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 05:18 AM

What a depressing thread... cynicism rains supreme, but it is not all the fault of some, but a corruption of the majority.


I don't think people are all that negative really. Possibly just a bit fed up with the constant stream of "idea guys".

All that people in this thread are really saying is you need _more_ then "just a gdd" to get your game made.
And some excellent feedback on what is needed

It's just reality based on simple principles like supply and demand...

Edited by Olof Hedman, 03 September 2012 - 05:20 AM.





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