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What is the guy called with all the money? boss?


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#41 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17993

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:51 AM

If this is aimed at me

I'm pretty sure that was aimed at glhf.

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#42 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:21 AM

well ofcourse im investing to make money

Invest in something other than games. The returns are low and the risks are extremely high.


I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.
That's the general attitidue with most indys.
If you get a serious indy team together then I think you can make a lot of money.

#43 Orymus3   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7668

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:31 AM

If you get a serious indy team together then I think you can make a lot of money.

Zeboyd does. Although Robert Boyd has a lot of ground experience and a much different attitude. Also, he started small, not by dangling his bucks around wanting to make a "hostile takeover" on a development team (read the definition for this before replying).

I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.

Fun games sell. Production value just happens to sell more but does not necessarily lead to fun per se.

That's the general attitidue with most indys.

An interesting statement. I trust you've conducted a survey of a representative sample before speaking?
I'm asking this because I network with a lot of serious indies who rely on their business to pay the bills... so I'm pretty sure they have a general attitude. Now, they may not be a representative sample (I don't know thousands of them) but you seem to have data to back your claims...

#44 JTippetts   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8352

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:34 AM

I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.
That's the general attitidue with most indys.


That's quite a lot of arrogance you've got there. You are aware that every time you make something like this a part of the searchable public record, you burn potential bridges and reinforce in the public's eye the perception that you are arrogant and don't really know what you are talking about? Remember where you are: gamedev.net. This is a community made up of the very people you want to fleece. I doubt a single legitimate member here would hesitate to give you the middle finger if you approached them with an offer of funding, and I doubt they would hesitate to warn their acquaintances should you approach them instead.

I recommend you try for at least a little bit of humility. That's good life advice, as well.

#45 Orymus3   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7668

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:54 PM

I recommend you try for at least a little bit of humility. That's good life advice, as well.

The only way to learn and become better is to recognize the error of your ways. I would follow JT's advice here if I were you rather than systematically downpost everyone (to no avail might I add).

#46 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6060

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 01:37 AM

I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.
That's the general attitidue with most indys.
If you get a serious indy team together then I think you can make a lot of money.


On average returns are low and risks are high, most studios that aim for the AAA segment go bankrupt, the competition is extremely fierce and even successful games don't make a huge profit. the best ROI is pretty much on games like Minecraft (low budget titles that just happened to get insanely lucky), compared to other industries the game industry is very high risk. (There are plenty of examples of great games that didn't do well enough financially to keep their creators in business and even more examples of extremely expensive games that just plain sucked when they were done) (I don't want to think about how much money the people who invested in Duke Nukem Forever lost)

Edited by SimonForsman, 12 September 2012 - 01:54 AM.

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#47 glhf   Banned   -  Reputation: -585

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:04 AM


I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.
That's the general attitidue with most indys.
If you get a serious indy team together then I think you can make a lot of money.


On average returns are low and risks are high, most studios that aim for the AAA segment go bankrupt, the competition is extremely fierce and even successful games don't make a huge profit. the best ROI is pretty much on games like Minecraft (low budget titles that just happened to get insanely lucky), compared to other industries the game industry is very high risk. (There are plenty of examples of great games that didn't do well enough financially to keep their creators in business and even more examples of extremely expensive games that just plain sucked when they were done) (I don't want to think about how much money the people who invested in Duke Nukem Forever lost)


Yep, this is exactly what I'm talking about..
There's a lot of great games out there that don't make as much money as it could do..
They focused too much on making gameplay fun... without designing it so it can make more money.
You can't just think about making the game fun, you have to think about money as well.

Fun+Money has to go hand in hand.
Focusing on money doesn't have to have a negative impact on the fun either.. it's all about how you design it.

Cash Shops for example is something a lot more games should have.
Just really simple things will increase your revenue like a name change.
Or new avatar/character mesh/re-customize.. Things like this that isn't pay2win.

You can implement a cash shop to almost everything in a game.
Like maybe you want to let them send offline messages (mails) to each other.. you can let them unlock more inbox slots in the cash shop.
If there's a chat window in the lobby you can let them buy a unique color for their text.. or name.
And make sure you leave an option so that players can buy stuff for other players.

Pretty much everything in the game can be affected by the cash shop without making it pay2win.

You can even have a cash shop AND have a price tag on your game.

#48 Orymus3   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7668

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:06 AM

An interesting insight, although experience has recently taught us that the social game approach to monetization was infantile and that successful games from the last couple months were those with better gameplay and less emphasis on business model.
Likewise, what we thought was a good idea (casual market) turns out to be not as profitable as hardcore market.
(Edit: be aware that "we" and "us" are inclusive)

On a personal note, I only follow the metrics and facts here, because, personally, I'm really turned off by the Free2Play model in general (I prefer upfront payment and never being bothered again, although I'm ok with DLCs).

Edited by Orymus3, 12 September 2012 - 08:19 AM.


#49 TechnoGoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2681

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 09:47 AM

The typical rule the Venture Capitalists use is 1 in 10. That is they only expect 1 out of 10 projects they invest in to succeed but that projects will give them huge returns more than covering what they lost money on the other 9. But of the reason to go with VC or angel investor from the developers point of view is that the develop can benefit from the VC's experience and contacts. Its not just about handing over money at regular instalments. The amount of control you have will also be a lot smaller then you want. Very few indie studio's will hand over creative control to an investor just to get a cash infusion.

Game development is expensive, risky, takes a long time, and may take ages to get a ROI.
Its a little different in the AAA world were they spend millions on marketing with the knowledge that 85% to 90% of sales occur in the first week.

Even with that it's no guarantee of success. Look at kingdom of amalur they burnt through so much cash that even though the game sold 1.3 million copies they would have needed to sell 2 million just cover the advance from the publisher.

Another reason that it is hard to make money as indie is the costs:

Lets say you want to use UDK which is a world class engine. Now its free to develop on, with a 1 time $100 fee for a studio licence on release. But the cost comes in once you hit the royalty free limit of $50,000 in revenue in a year in anyway(sales, in game transactions, ads) you have to start paying 25% of the gross to Unreal. Now if that game is also an Iphone game apple takes a 30% cut on all transactions. You'll have to pay 10%-20% in sales taxes on top of any transaction as well.

So if we break that down:
$10 in user spend:
$1 in tax
9 x 30% = $2.7 for apple
9 x 25% = $2.25 for unreal

Which leaves you with $4.05 out of every $10 you earn before you even start paying other costs.
That works out to about $53,000 on the first $100,000 in revenue. If you spend $100,000 on making that iphone game you need $200,000 in revenue to just cover the costs.

There are a lot of easier ways to make money if you have cash to spend then funding game projects. A strong investment portfolio will give you much better return. I'm managing 20% growth a year on mine. Or you could invest in buying a few rental properties.

If you go down the CEO route you have a fundamental problem in that as you have said before you have 0 experience in the industry. You've never worked at a game studio, or been a manager of similar company. You are not going to be in a position to make decisions on best practices, technologies, or accurately gauge costs and time scales. So you'll need to either partner with someone who does a or hirer someone which will cost you a lot more the a normal developer. Either way they aren't going to sit there and have you tell them what to do. They will probably ended asking what you actually bring to the day to day running of the project. Also if you go the CEO it means quitting your current job and relying on your savings to fund development and pay your living costs.

All in all from what it sounds like you want. Which is to make money off of gaming through extensive monetization I'd find your self an experienced developer to partner with who knows how to build cloud based apis and start a business around providing monetization services to indie developers. Why go to trouble of building a game full of micro transactions when you could provide that as a secure service that indie studios can use for a nominal service charge.

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#50 Orymus3   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7668

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 10:39 AM

Which leaves you with $4.05 out of every $10 you earn before you even start paying other costs.

Lovely example. And for references, there are fees to being on PSN and the likes as well. Also, if you want to sell digitally, you'll find that an ebay app or plugging into steam will also cut on the profit margin. There simply isn't much output unless you get the user base.

If you go down the CEO route you have a fundamental problem in that as you have said before you have 0 experience in the industry. You've never worked at a game studio, or been a manager of similar company. You are not going to be in a position to make decisions on best practices, technologies, or accurately gauge costs and time scales. So you'll need to either partner with someone who does a or hirer someone which will cost you a lot more the a normal developer.


I was lucky enough to see "both sides of the story" there. And it can really go both ways.
A CEO's more risky decision is to know how to surround himself with capable people. It is probably his most important skill, as, obviously, he can't be expected to rock at everything.
I've been at a place before, where the CEO was actually a very capable guy. You could tell from talking over with him, or seeing him do his job, that he knew what he was doing. The problem is that he couldn't do everything. He's started a lot of businesses, and the one recurring issue is that he kept hiring his "friends" to fill these spots because he felt comfortable around them. Sadly enough, these "friends" are not as capable as him.
I've also seen a CEO hiring a lot of people with experience and the right attitude and make them his VPs. Rather than to try to do everything, he's simply given the reins of these departments to them, and it has proven very successful as they were much more skilled than him in these fields.

In both cases however, these CEOs are not just there to tell them what to do, what they want, and be the "money-men". They both spend a tremendous amount of time at work, and I'm pretty sure they can't just turn off their brain when the day's over.

#51 DaveTroyer   Members   -  Reputation: 1052

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 01:56 PM

...
Cash Shops for example is something a lot more games should have.
Just really simple things will increase your revenue like a name change.
...
You can implement a cash shop to almost everything in a game.
...
You can even have a cash shop AND have a price tag on your game.


Maybe it's just me, but it seems like your'e trying to imagine yourself or your investments to be along the lines of AAA publishers.

If you had realistic expectations for a project, which would take some earnest research into the industry, then you wouldn't need to spark such harsh conversations and push everyone away when they have the experience you so desperately need but willingly ignore.

If you want to start small, think small. You can't bank on a game making millions. Investments are a gamble.

In my opinion, if you really want to invest in a video game project, find one that is trying to get a single game made that has already been designed (including GDD with business plan), has a good team, and a working alpha.

Just don't expect them to change everything/anything or forking over every dime that could be earned from their project.

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#52 lTyl   Members   -  Reputation: 135

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 04:33 AM


well ofcourse im investing to make money

Invest in something other than games. The returns are low and the risks are extremely high.


I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.
That's the general attitidue with most indys.
If you get a serious indy team together then I think you can make a lot of money.


The video game industry is a creative industry that is hugely competitive. Back in 2008 I was ignorant enough to think that I could make a significant amount of money in the game industry. I put a lot of money into my first commercial project to make it shiny, smooth and fluid but skimped out on actually making it fun. I had no previous experience at the time, but had a lot of business experience before then. So I took an approach where I wanted to make games for the money, and because of that mindset the overall quality of the project suffered to the point where it was almost intolerable to play.You have to enter the industry because it is something you WANT to do and not because you heard of some game that sold two million copies and want a piece of the pie.

Entering the industry solely because of the money is a terrible excuse and will, in almost every case, cause you to fall flat on your face bleeding all of your investment capital. If you ask any of the very successful independent developers why they entered the industry, their answers will all be similar; they did it because it is something they love to do.




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