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9/11 Never Forget.


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#1 Alan Greenspan   Banned   -  Reputation: -6

Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:39 AM

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#2 slayemin   Members   -  Reputation: 2912

Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:38 AM

The reality is, we WILL eventually forget. As far as catastrophes go, 9/11 is small potatoes (when you count lives lost, levels of destruction, mayhem, etc).
What happened? Two airplanes flew into the world trade center buildings, one crashed into the pentagon, and one crashed into a field. Overall, ~3,500 lives were lost. It's a tragedy, without a doubt, due to the preventable loss of human life. Yet, the firebombings of Dresden, Tokyo, and a swath of other cities killing hundreds of thousands and leveling ALL infrastructure barely registers a reaction. Equally disasterous to the firebombings is the more salient nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which pretty much had the same effects as the fire bombings but was instantaneous and more psychologically shocking. Or perhaps, we should also never forget the millions of people purged at the hands of Stalin, or the hundreds of thousands of Kurds gassed at the hands of Saddam Hussein and his chemical weapons. Right NOW, thousands of people are dying in Syria, neighborhoods are being shelled every day, and homes are being destroyed. It's already more catastrophic than 9/11/2001, yet the depressing response is "meh... it's in the middle east with a bunch of crazy hotheads.". Why choose 9/11/2001 as a day to remember due to the catastrophe when there are so many catastrophes more worthy of remembering? Perhaps, it's the recent proximity in history? Or maybe it's not as psychologically routine like regular bombings or an ongoing war? Whatever the case, I hope to GOD that it isn't due to some sense of American exceptionalism, where we think American life and property is orders of magnitude more valuable than other life and property. Human life is human life, regardless of nationality or citizenship status (an invading fleet of extraterrestrials wouldn't make any distinction between one person or another).

Anyways, as far as the disaster is concerned, we will eventually forget it based off of historical trends.
The japanese surprise attack on pearl harbor is the closest historically similar event to 9/11/2001. How fresh is that wound? Do we take a moment of solemn silence and reflect on that every December 7th, or do we say "meh..."? Or how about the sinking of the USS Maine in Havana harbor, which cued the headline "Remember the Maine!"? Do we remember the Maine like we're asked to? We eventually shrug our shoulders and carry on. We have to, because otherwise we'd be inundated with disasters to remember and little would get done. The world is a cold, hard place where it is completely unconcerned about the affairs of people. It'll keep spinning on its axis passing its days whether we're here or not, whether we're butchering each other or not, or holding hands and singing kumbayah or not.

The bottom line is that we will forget 9/11/2001 as it too eventually sinks into the oblivion of distant history in the back pages of a book, eventually dwarfed by fresher and more shocking disasters to come.

Eric Nevala

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#3 slicer4ever   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3986

Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:00 AM

+1 to slayemin, it's a tragedy, but pales in comparison to some of the horror's throughout history, that barely get a page in a history book.

edit: also, don't understand why the picture has a "Imagine no religion" text over it.
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#4 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 31920

Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:03 AM

It's quite likely that the OP is just trolling to try and start a religion vs atheism flame war. I trust no one is going to bite...
If you look through his posting history, it's a borderline troll account.

The bottom line is that we will forget 9/11/2001 as it too eventually sinks into the oblivion of distant history in the back pages of a book, eventually dwarfed by fresher and more shocking disasters to come.

Yes it will become insignificant compared to other disasters (and already is insignificant compared to the million Iraqi dead from '90-today), but will go down in history as the same kind of political event as the Reichstag fire -- there's been plenty of fires since, and it wasn't even that big of a fire at the time, but still it remains in the history books because it resulted in the loss of civil liberties, the granting of never-ending emergency powers, and eventually propelled a country into war.

edit: also, don't understand why the picture has a "Imagine no religion" text over it.

Depending on who you ask, the reason it occurred was simply because of religion. Nevermind that in the interview that's commonly cited as OBL's admission of being behind the 9/11 attacks (despite no direct admission appearing in the interview), he cites witnessing US bombing of Lebanese civilian apartment towers as the catalyst for his desire to destroy an American tower in retaliation, to shock their populace into denouncing their terroristic leadership. Didn't really work out for him.
Also, the radical islamist movement was non-violent, until a dictatorship tortured the soul out of their leader, convincing him that their enemies were too corrupted to be defeated with non-violence, and that they would have to fight fire with fire. Violence leads to violence. Image a world without violence...

Edited by Hodgman, 11 September 2012 - 06:47 AM.


#5 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:25 AM

The reality is, we WILL eventually forget. As far as catastrophes go, 9/11 is small potatoes (when you count lives lost, levels of destruction, mayhem, etc).

It's relatively small, but it had a significant impact.

Think about it like someone hacking your bank account and stealing all your money vs. someone breaking into your house and stealing your TV. The latter is a much smaller measurable impact, but is probably also more traumatic because of the impact it has on the perception of the safety of yourself and the people you care about.

#6 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 10396

Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:52 AM

The latter is a much smaller measurable impact, but is probably also more traumatic because of the impact it has on the perception of the safety of yourself and the people you care about.

I think pre-2001 Americans might have been unique in believing that they were somehow invulnerable.

Across the pond, we always lived with the knowledge that we might be bombed by the IRA, taken hostage by Basque separatists, or doused in gasoline and set on fire by PETA...

Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#7 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 31920

Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:21 AM

I just found a great troll post on another forum -- read carefully, and apologies to anyone offended by reposting the troll's work (having spoiled it already by pointing out it's trick):

Today is the anniversary of 9/11. I think we should all take a moment out of our time and remember the dead. That tuesday, without any provocations, the attacks happend. That day which has been engraved in our collective memory has changed the world completely. It's a day on which freedom and democracy itself was attacked. A cowardish attack, resulting in the deaths of 3000 innocent humans. Their lives lost, for no reason other than mindless, baseless hate. We should all work together to make sure such disgusting attacks never happen again.
In our thoughts today are the 3000 innocent deads, and the 130.000 innocents that were imprisoned and tortured.

We should never forget, and never forgive.

September 11, 1973.


Edited by Hodgman, 11 September 2012 - 08:27 AM.


#8 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6318

Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:10 AM

I just found a great troll post on another forum -- read carefully, and apologies to anyone offended by reposting the troll's work (having spoiled it already by pointing out it's trick):

Today is the anniversary of 9/11. I think we should all take a moment out of our time and remember the dead. That tuesday, without any provocations, the attacks happend. That day which has been engraved in our collective memory has changed the world completely. It's a day on which freedom and democracy itself was attacked. A cowardish attack, resulting in the deaths of 3000 innocent humans. Their lives lost, for no reason other than mindless, baseless hate. We should all work together to make sure such disgusting attacks never happen again.
In our thoughts today are the 3000 innocent deads, and the 130.000 innocents that were imprisoned and tortured.

We should never forget, and never forgive.

September 11, 1973.


Allthough it is worth remembering Sep 11 1973 aswell, it is a significant part of chile's history and there are lessons to be learned from it.
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#9 Orymus3   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 10674

Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:17 AM

I will risk being flamed but...
WWII, never forget.
9/11? This is really just a slap in your ego's face. You remember it not because of those that died, but because of the insult. This is symbolic, but isn't as much a catastrophy as events that have been forgotten. WWII was so dire, it almost made us forget WWI.
What about Bloody Sunday?
etc...

#10 Memories are Better   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 769

Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:39 AM

Living in the past is such a terrible way to live, I have forgotten the event of 9/11 mainly because remembering them makes no difference and it would be very hypocritical of me remembering 9/11 especially when things like TB despite being a popular killer never seems to get mentioned and it killed more than both world wars and continues to do so.

With obesity rates increasing, cancer being a number one killer and the environment getting screwed, I think its time we focused on the present issues.

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Edited by Dynamo_Maestro, 11 September 2012 - 09:39 AM.


#11 Cornstalks   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6991

Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:40 AM

WTF OP? Go die, stupid troll.

[edit]

It's quite likely that the OP is just trolling to try and start a religion vs atheism flame war. I trust no one is going to bite...
If you look through his posting history, it's a borderline troll account.

I don't see why he's allowed to continue posting on this site, then...

Edited by Cornstalks, 11 September 2012 - 09:43 AM.

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#12 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 31920

Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:50 AM

Allthough it is worth remembering Sep 11 1973 aswell, it is a significant part of chile's history and there are lessons to be learned from it.

Indeed - the troll's joke is that 9/11/73 is a day where democracy and freedom were actually directly attacked, which is the rhetoric that Bush often used about 9/11/01 ("the terrorists just hate our freedom", etc), and is also trolling with the irony that the US funded the '73 attack on democracy...

I don't see why he's allowed to continue posting on this site, then...

Warnings will come before a ban. The community already doesn't seem impressed with him, what with -60 rep in a few days.

Edited by Hodgman, 11 September 2012 - 09:51 AM.


#13 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7590

Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:38 PM


The latter is a much smaller measurable impact, but is probably also more traumatic because of the impact it has on the perception of the safety of yourself and the people you care about.

I think pre-2001 Americans might have been unique in believing that they were somehow invulnerable.

Across the pond, we always lived with the knowledge that we might be bombed by the IRA, taken hostage by Basque separatists, or doused in gasoline and set on fire by PETA...


I more or less remember the day it happened and the overall impression I got from the people I knew in the 'states at the time was that it was unprovoked (upon which point I got into an arguement re: US foreign policy) and that some how terrorism didn't really exist until then (at which point I got into an arguement about the IRA and the links to US funding of the same who carried out a terror campaign in a friendly country).

#14 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4692

Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:55 PM

This thread gets +1 because I learned something actually interesting about 9/11 (ie. Chile). Outside of that, this day is about the victims not the US.
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#15 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 10396

Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:01 PM

I more or less remember the day it happened and the overall impression I got from the people I knew in the 'states at the time was that it was unprovoked (upon which point I got into an arguement re: US foreign policy) and that some how terrorism didn't really exist until then (at which point I got into an arguement about the IRA and the links to US funding of the same who carried out a terror campaign in a friendly country).

I hope that 11 years is not too soon for people to see the irony that US-funded 'freedom fighters' should eventually turn their backs on Soviet imperialism, and focus on our brand of Capitalist imperialism instead...

Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#16 Serapth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5791

Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:10 PM

9/11 will be remembered in history, but for perhaps the wrong reasons.

As the fall of the Roman Empire took hundreds of years, it can easily be traced back to certain key dates.

9/11 is one of those such dates. It was one of the key points in the fall of US preemenance. When the United States embarked on a fiscally irresponsible nation building exercise, that nearly bankrupted the nation, shrank the middle class and strengthened China.

Of course, it will take several hundred years to prove me right. The US government could right the ship, stop deficit spending and focus on regrowing the middle class... but I don't see that happening. Especially when you have two equally inept parties running pretty much on the exact same platform distinguished only by the particular brand of meddling in social matters they care to trumpet.

One other thing I always find tragically laughable about the never forget crowd... quick, when were the attacks in the UK or Spain? When was the Cole attacked? What about the terrorist attacks on Japan's subway system?

I will admit though, key points in history are remembered way out of significance to their body count. The Munich attacks are a very significant example. 9/11 will live on through the annals of history, just not for the reasons most people think.

#17 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:41 PM

One other thing I always find tragically laughable about the never forget crowd... quick, when were the attacks in the UK or Spain? When was the Cole attacked? What about the terrorist attacks on Japan's subway system?

I think it would be interesting if they had named 9/11 something other than "9/11". Iirc the UK bombings were in 2005, but I don't remember the month. I've never been good at remembering dates and would probably forget the date if it weren't named after the date. We'll probably still hear about it for a while; we still remember Pearl Harbour, and it had fewer deaths I think.

I think pre-2001 Americans might have been unique in believing that they were somehow invulnerable.
Across the pond, we always lived with the knowledge that we might be bombed by the IRA, taken hostage by Basque separatists, or doused in gasoline and set on fire by PETA...

Fair points made. It was probably the first time where the goal was civilian American death rather than leveraging those Americans for some sort of political gain. Understandably not everybody sympathizes with that, but it is a sobering thing to have happen on such a scale.

#18 Telastyn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3730

Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:02 PM

I find it sadly hypocritical that Americans hold onto 9/11 far more than OKC, or the Sikh shootings, or Columbine, or Gabrielle Giffords, or VaTech, or the abortion doctor assassinations, or...

There have been so many examples of domestic terrorism in modern times, but we largely forget them, ignore them, and shake our heads sadly when they happen again. We focus on muslims because it's easy, and do tremendous damage to the American ideal with such intollerance. 9/11 was bad, but our single-minded reaction has compounded the damage.

Edited by Telastyn, 11 September 2012 - 03:04 PM.


#19 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7590

Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:14 PM

I think it would be interesting if they had named 9/11 something other than "9/11". Iirc the UK bombings were in 2005, but I don't remember the month. I've never been good at remembering dates and would probably forget the date if it weren't named after the date.


The UK bombings where 7/7 although I don't blame you for not knowing - I couldn't name the others either. The only reason the UK one sticks at all in my head is because a friend of mine at the time had someone they knew killed in it but even then it just makes me remember the date, not be all morning about it.

In a way I see making a big deal of these dates as a sign the terrorist 'won' - well not 'won' but you know; the event has been etched into memory and as such will be remembered and thus so will they. In a way letting it go after a few years and saying "no, we won't be tied to this..." is probably better. (But I have much the same feeling about the various WW2 events; the sooner they pass into history the better as we keep dwelling on the past which keeps grudges alive and stops us moving forward.)

#20 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2502

Posted 11 September 2012 - 04:11 PM

Across the pond, we always lived with the knowledge that we might be bombed by the IRA, taken hostage by Basque separatists, or doused in gasoline and set on fire by PETA...


Interestingly, 9/11 was a disaster for the IRA, as suddenly terrorism didn't seem quite as much like freedom fighting to the Irish American community and support promptly dried up.

I still think it was a miracle 9/11 wasn't a lot worse in terms of bloodshed. At the time, I'd recently been to NY, and did the tourist thing of going up the twin towers, and I distinctly remember my first reaction being "oh crap, there are 50,000 people in those buildings".
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