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What programmers want from a designer


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#21 lithos   Members   -  Reputation: 413

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:39 PM

From what I've seen after you have something that works lots of people of mid-low skill level are super excited about joining your project. After a community invests in your game you start to get people of higher skill level. Anything before that you're going to have to rely on people you already know.

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#22 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:39 AM

I'll be more serious for this post.

I have a very specific group of games I would be willing to spend time on. I don't care about shooters, platformers, and various other kinds of games. So I guess first I would have to really like the genre. If I had a choice between an RTS and an FPS I would never pick the FPS. Following on this idea it would have to have a novel spin. No making Warcraft 3 clones for instance. I doubt that other programmers share my specific preferences but I would suspect that the general idea applies all around.

Passion and perseverance are also important. I want to know that if we hit a snag 3 months in my last 3 months weren't wasted and that the project will continue on. How much effort you put into things before I get on board tells me how much I can expect from you afterwards.


I still stand by what I said before. I would prefer the project lead to have some sort of programming skill be it GUI or graphics or physics or something. Alternatively he needs to be a really good artist.

Again though, if I'm not leading the project I absolutely have to be on the same page as far as the mechanics of the game with the project lead.

#23 Sandman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2136

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:34 AM

To catch my attention a project would have to:

1. Be of a size and scope that seems appropriate given the apparent ability of the project starter. Simple things, like spelling errors, naive comments/questions that demonstrate poor understanding of the industry can have a major negative impact on your apparent ability. Having a good, professional looking proposal and generally coming across as a well researched, intelligent person is important, and a portfolio of past games or mods you've been involved with - even if they are very basic - is also a great positive.

2. Pique my interest as a gamer. It has to be something which sounds interesting and fun. It should have some kind of unique hook that makes it stand out from a sea of clones. This hook should not just be some silly gimmick - it should be integral to the core gameplay. Genre can make a difference here too - some genres simply interest me more than others.

3. Align with my interests as a developer. As a programmer, I need to be constantly learning new technologies and techniques, partly for my own career development, and partly pure personal interest - and I tend to use my hobby project time to do so. If your game involves technologies that are interesting and/or useful for me to develop and gain experience with, then that could be of great value. Of course, there has to be a certain amount of room in the project to accommodate any learning curve in order for this to work as a draw.

4. Have enough room in the design for some of my own creative input. This is another area where the way the 'designer' conducts himself can make a big impact. Coming across as a mature person with a welcoming attitude to ideas and an ability to handle criticism (and give criticism reasonably tactfully) is important.

#24 Drethon   Members   -  Reputation: 212

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:24 AM

I don't have a lot of time to read this over in detail so I apologize if I'm saying something that is already stated. To me the biggest thing for a designer beyond the basic of a game that can be reasonably developed is sufficient detail. Programmers can determine how to implement the game rules but while we can design the details of game logic, that is a design detail, not an implementation detail.
- My $0.02

#25 bwight   Members   -  Reputation: 165

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:35 AM

If you want a programmer to work on a game for you its most important that you sell the project as being something he would be interested in. Most programmers do little projects themselves in their free time so working on a project for free doesn't seem like a horrible idea to us. If the project you want us to work on is to create a tick tac toe game then we probably wont be interested. There are programmers who like different genre and you need to find one who is passionate about the genre of game you want to create.

Programmers work in their free time because they like to improve their skills and learn new technologies. It's unlikely that you'll get one to work for free if he already knows everything so be patient and understand that there will be some trial an error with the programmers if you don't pay them.

Aside from that you need to give a programmer a reason to work on your project and not his own. What do you bring to the table? If you're not an artist or can't make music or any of those other skills that have been mentioned in this post then you MUST be able to gather people to do all of those jobs. A programmer will be much more willing to work for you if you have a team assembled that can do music, art, animation etc... There are some programmers that also enjoy doing the art, i'm not one of them, if you can provide all the artistic side of the game and give me a genre that I enjoy I'd probably work on the project.

Edited by bwight, 25 September 2012 - 09:36 AM.


#26 Mratthew   Members   -  Reputation: 1582

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:22 AM

This was all rad feedback, its always good to hear personal accounts. There are always common streams of thought but its great to hear the more personal draw to building games. If you've got more, keep em coming!

#27 Mratthew   Members   -  Reputation: 1582

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:50 AM

[...]only does character animation... well, in my experience, the character modeling and animation is much easier to find talent for than things like environment art, and maybe we could ditch that guy and find someone whose skills are more well-rounded. Everyone wants to be a character artist it seems (just get on DeviantArt and see for yourself) [...]


A character artist I might agree but few are willing to put in the effort to rig and very few can or will decently animate (hence the terrible animation in countless games). A large minority of DeviantArtists animate. I find Indie games tend to run and hide from animation all together for the most part, but even major AAA projects with beautiful character models don't get a decent animation polish like it should. Many are motion captured and then cleaned up with a dry eraser, leaving lots of odd poses or jitter that they often cover up with terribly sped up timing. Its a shame really. I couldn't agree more that great 3D environment artists are hard to come by but I think that that's more to do with the fact that it often turns into an architects job instead of just a modeling gig. However environment artists, like character artists are easy(er) to come by (many that can paint a unique character can paint a lovely environment since perspective skills are used for both). Could be that you have different experience then me but I would say there is a pretty good distinction between those that have graced the world with there Deviant collection and those that rig and bash out a couple thousand frames per day.

#28 Mratthew   Members   -  Reputation: 1582

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:15 AM

The more important questions are:

1) Are there programmers who would spend a few hundred hours writing unpaid code for someone else's game (and not for himself)?
2) Would you be willing to spend a few hundred hours coding someone else's game for free?

Question 1 is to make sure that this is actually feasible: that it is not a waste of time trying to get someone to code your game for free. And the responses to Question 2 will allow you to zero in on what exactly is needed to get someone to code your game for free.

IMHO I don't think this will work. Are there really programmers who would code for hundreds of hours for free on other people's game project? (specific to games, open source software is very different)


This is why I kept the time frame wide in that statement, a few dozen hours on a project seems feasible for a hobby project to me as an animator. I could spill out a rig or two and/or enough animation over the span of a month and feel happy with my contribution to a project. I can only assume a programmer wouldn't be all that different. I can only imagine I'd be willing to do more cumulatively over a longer period of time if the project was to my interest maybe even landing my hours in the hundreds but its hard to say (ive never explored that project yet). But I'm mostly curious about what draws people to the project in the first place. We all know we're going to have to sink hours of work into a project if we like it and agree to join in the fun but its the hook or bait that I want to know about. I want to hear about the projects that you as programmers couldn't ignore and why. Why you looked at a classified add and couldn't resist sinking X amount hours into the project. Especially with free projects.

As I don't program I can't answer question 2, which is why I jumped in and asked the question. I know the reasons why I would animate for a project, and I know why I would want to help design a project, but until I understand programming to be anything other then mathematical poetry in a language I don't understand, I will not be able to explore question 2 properly let alone answer it. So we are here. Sharing. Posted Image

#29 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6323

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:43 AM


The more important questions are:

1) Are there programmers who would spend a few hundred hours writing unpaid code for someone else's game (and not for himself)?
2) Would you be willing to spend a few hundred hours coding someone else's game for free?

Question 1 is to make sure that this is actually feasible: that it is not a waste of time trying to get someone to code your game for free. And the responses to Question 2 will allow you to zero in on what exactly is needed to get someone to code your game for free.

IMHO I don't think this will work. Are there really programmers who would code for hundreds of hours for free on other people's game project? (specific to games, open source software is very different)


This is why I kept the time frame wide in that statement, a few dozen hours on a project seems feasible for a hobby project to me as an animator. I could spill out a rig or two and/or enough animation over the span of a month and feel happy with my contribution to a project. I can only assume a programmer wouldn't be all that different.


The problem with programming is that you really want one person to hold things together for the duration of the project, an artist can make one good animated model and have made a good contribution, if you swap out the lead programmer you will lose a lot of time getting a new one up and running. (I've inherited a few mid sized projects at work and it took a bit over 50 hours just to get a decent grasp of the codebase. (Good documentation and clean code can make this less painful, but in a semi amateur project it is very unlikely to happen and could get far worse). Thus the first programmer you get will most likely have to dedicate several hundred hours to the project. (This is why programmers are reluctant to join projects that hasn't been started) (If a project has a good lead programmer i could join, get a bunch of reasonably sized tasks and complete as many as i feel like and then leave without feeling guilty about it)
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#30 Goran Milovanovic   Members   -  Reputation: 1104

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:05 AM

I've inherited a few mid sized projects at work and it took a bit over 50 hours just to get a decent grasp of the codebase.


In some cases, it's easier to just use your own codebase, and port the existing features.

Actually, even if that process took significant time, it's probably saving time in the long run.

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#31 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6323

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:29 AM


I've inherited a few mid sized projects at work and it took a bit over 50 hours just to get a decent grasp of the codebase.


In some cases, it's easier to just use your own codebase, and port the existing features.

Actually, even if that process took significant time, it's probably saving time in the long run.


The problem really is that we get paid by the hour by our client, they want bugs fixed and features added today (or yesterday in many cases)
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#32 Wilhelm van Huyssteen   Members   -  Reputation: 1012

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:46 AM

Let me rage a little.

A couple of months ago I found an add for a game called Dragon Wars here on gamedev. It was a multiplayer turn based game that was claimed to be "85%" complete. But what hooked me was an impressive array of completed art assets so I decided to follow it up with the author. After chatting with him a while on skype I was convinced that this project would be a good investment of my free time. The author presented himself well and his project well and overall it seemed good.

After we disscussed terms (not much realy, just potentional profit sharing etc) and I agreed he sent me a rar archive and asked me if I could "get it online again quickly". "Huh?" was my first thought but I siffed though the archive wich turned out to be a messy mix of outdated design docs, random notes, assets and java source code that wasnt even in the correct package structure... I then asked him the login details of the server thats supposed to host the game but he said he didnt have the "websites password onhand". I asked him If the games website was self hosted on the same server thats supposed to host the game server. He could not answer me but after I asked a couple more questions I eventualy decucted that the websites hosted on a cheap shared hosting solution... At this point i wasnt impressed anymore but I thought I decided to pursue it just a little longer to see how it turns out. So i took the time to sort out the source code. The first thing I noticed is that it relies on a mysql database but I could not find any sql scripts in the archive to set up the database. So I asked him but he once again had no idea what I was talking about. So i went and i manualy created the neccesary tables by reading the source. Not difficult just tedious and annoying... I decided that I use my own dedicated server to host the game in the meantime. Its pretty much idling most of the time anyway. It took me almoust a day to sort everytihg out, set up the databsase, compile, upload and run the server, compile upload and run the client etc (btw I had to upload the client to my own website in the meantime becuase he was incappable of uploading it to his). Anyway moments before I got everything working he skypes me and tells me that "Its taking long, All you needed to do was run the game". At this point I should have just left. I obviously over estimated this person a bit but since I allready spent the whole day setting this up Il at least want to see it run.

Anyway... It turned out to be a horribly incomplete and bug infested... It would crash for different reason each time and the game mechanics were all glitchy "85%" my ass. I asked him what happened to the previous programmer but I also could not get a straight answer. This game was a clone of an old popular game called cyberwars. This guys "design document" was 95% cyberwars with a couple of tweaks. I knew I could not work with this person but I also didnt need to. He somehow managed to trick an artist or 2 into creating a complete art set. And he even got a sound engineer to make sounds... So I thought "Hey, Il just fix this game up and host it on my website with ads on the sides". Its not like the author is capable of hosting it anyway and other than somehow ripping of good artists he didnt actualy contribute anything, Hell il even give him credit as the "desighner" and give him a portion of add revenue (and of course give credit to the old artists who abandoned the project 2 years ago with the old programmer)". I ended up working more or less 90 hours on it over a period of 2 and a half months. I completely stabilzed the game, completed incomplete feutures and created its new gui from scratch (you can see the screenshots on my website, before that the gui consisted of standard java swing componants) Unfortenetley... He thought his "contribution" was worth a bit more. I heard things like "Ive been planning this game my whole life" and "I am a good team leader". Now i realy didnt care much for potentional ad revenue Origanely i just wanted to work on an interesting project... But when he said the he wanted 90% of the cut for his "contributions" I was more that a little vexed. Then he insisted that I hand the source code over to him and give him full ownership "so I cant steal his "work"" """""" """"" """". You can say "but you should have agreed on this from the start" however the origanell agreement was moot anyway since in the origanel agreement I just had to "do a little bit of programming on a 85% complete game".

Ive stopped working on the project and it feels like a massive waiste. The game is still running on my site and to be honest I would love to continue working on it more but this person makes it pretty hard... If I can get ahold of the origanell artists and programmer I could probely just ask them for permission to use their work and cut him out completely but thats not realy in my nature.

Lesson? Hell i realy dont know... make youre own deduction :D

#33 Legendre   Members   -  Reputation: 966

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 10:28 AM

After developing a few small (3 weeks, 2-3 months) games, and now doing a big (1 year) one, I find that the two biggest roles ( there are others :/ ) in a one man indie project are: Lead programmer and Art Director. Thankfully, I am able to play both roles because I am a programmer (scientific computing), and used to be a hobbyist comic artist (so I know a little art). IMHO,

1. It is much easier to direct art than lead the programming.

Anyone can tell good art from bad. And if you are the lead programmer, you know how to work with sprites (for example). If an artist supplies you with the sprites of the appropriate dimensions, you know how to code it into your game. On the other hand, if you know art but no programming, it is impossible for you to tell good code from bad. It is impossible for you to use code snippets that other programmers produced in your game.

*I am saying this with regards to 2D games. I have no experience with 3D.

2. You can cut back on art but not programming.

You can always make a heavy text game, use stick figures, stock art, palette swap, use free art etc. It might even be possible to cut back on the art so much that a non-artist (or someone who can't draw at all) can produce a game. E.g. Make a text based game or use free/stock/cheap art. But you can't do the same with programming. And if no one in your team can program, you're finished.

3. It is much easier for artists to come and go, but not programmers.

Like others have mentioned, an artists can spend much less time producing something that contributes to the project. E.g. A friend of mine spent 2-3 hours producing a nice sketch and now it is being used as concept art for a character in my game. Programmers, on the other hand, have to spend considerable amount of time just reading and understanding the existing pile of code. There is no way for a friend of mine to spend 2-3 hours "producing" useful code.

#34 DaveTroyer   Members   -  Reputation: 1052

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:16 AM

@Legendre - Huh?

I'm coming at this as an artist with very limited experience coding, so please bear with me.

Creating a sketch concept shouldn't take "2-3 hours".

To me, an artist should be willing to pound out a dozen "sketch" concepts in like 20 minutes to get ideas on paper for the team to look over before going on to make more refined ideas. Taking those refined concepts and make model sheets; then from those to creating the models. And after, obviously skin, rig, animate, bake, etc.

The entire process to create a game ready asset should really take maybe 2-3 days in my opinion and I'm admittedly a very, very fast artist.

And this is comparable to programmers in my opinion. The team I work with had the engine working and playable in the game play style we wanted on the first day of a "game jam marathon". Ever since then, they've been refining and implementing, just as the artists and I have been creating and refining our contributions.

And programming is cut all the time. That's exactly what happens when a feature is dropped or cut since the scope is too large. Whenever I have worked on a game, (which is still a limited experience at this time, I admit) even what many people consider a simple game, there is always room to refine and distill that game. To take out needless bloat.

But don't get me wrong, I know programmers are important. They're like the engine in a sports car. Without it, the car might look fast and cool, but it's just going to sit and do nothing else.

All I'm trying to say is that the art assets need time to be refined and tweaked just the same as the code.

Check out my game blog - Dave's Game Blog


#35 Tobl   Members   -  Reputation: 364

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:39 PM

2. You can cut back on art but not programming.


?
Of course it is possible to make a game without knowing how to program. That's what all the gamemakers are for, after all. (The most well-known being the RPG-Maker, but there are others for other genres as well).
Sure, it's quite likely that a game which was made this way is going to suck, but so is a game which uses no or only free/stock/cheap art.

Yes, programmers are important and definitely the least swappable members of a gamedev-team, but, at least when it's been planned from the beginning, even they are not indispensable. Nobody is.

bw,
Tobl

Edited by Tobl, 26 September 2012 - 03:52 PM.

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#36 bwight   Members   -  Reputation: 165

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:15 PM

3. It is much easier for artists to come and go, but not programmers.


While I don't agree with any one point completely, I think this is closer to reality than the other points. I'm a programmer and I know that it can be difficult to jump into code that you didn't write and start fixing bugs or adding new features right away. More so with code that is not well structured. There are times, depending on who developed the code that modifications are actually quite easy and take very little work. As far as the art is concerned I think that yes you can add and remove artists easier, but I think that each artist has their own style. The game will seem more polished if you can keep the same group of artists on board for the whole game.

#37 Legendre   Members   -  Reputation: 966

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:12 AM

The entire process to create a game ready asset should really take maybe 2-3 days in my opinion and I'm admittedly a very, very fast artist.

All I'm trying to say is that the art assets need time to be refined and tweaked just the same as the code.


Agreed. It can take a great deal of time and effort to create good game ready assets, which is why "art director" is the 2nd biggest role a lone indie has to play. I was just trying to illustrate how an artist can join the project for just 2-3 hours and contribute positively to it by producing a few pieces of concept art. On the other hand, a programmer will need quite a bit of time just to get acquainted with the existing code.

Of course it is possible to make a game without knowing how to program. That's what all the gamemakers are for, after all. (The most well-known being the RPG-Maker, but there are others for other genres as well).

Sure, it's quite likely that a game which was made this way is going to suck, but so is a game which uses no or only free/stock/cheap art.


You are right. We can in fact cut out both programming AND art entirely and make, for example, pen & paper tic-tac-toe.

Perhaps I should rephrase it to: "It is far more restrictive to cut out programming. e.g. use a game maker. Than it is to cut out art. Any 2D game (not sure about 3D) can still be made using simple, cheap or free art. But if you switch to a game maker, you will be forced to modify your game."

Also, a game which uses no or only free/stock/cheap art can still be very good! I love text-based games (browser-based, MUDs etc) and there are quite a few very good ones. E.g. "N", "Geometry Wars", "I made a game with Zombies in it!" or various Flash games on Newgrounds with amateur or stick figure art.

In addition, one can always make a free parody or tribute using existing game graphics. The sprites in Starcraft: Brood Wars for example are easily obtainable and several very good Flash game tributes have been made. (I made a flying shooter this way once)

#38 Trevor10   Members   -  Reputation: 111

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 09:33 AM

This thread has gotten quite long and I haven't read everything so I apologize if this is a repeat. What bothers me the most is people stating they are a studio when it's quite obvious they are working from their parents' basement or in a single bedroom apartment. Unless you've registered your business, are remitting taxes, and have dedicated office space - you are not a studio. The biggest dead giveaway that you are not a studio is the fact that you can't pay me. Studios have access to funding and/or an income from their previous game(s). Lastly, if you are not of legal age to enter into a contract (usually 18) don't even bother. I will never work (even free work) if I'm not protected by a contract. In short, don't lie about being a studio when you are just one person with an idea.

Edited by Trevor10, 30 September 2012 - 10:21 AM.


#39 slayemin   Members   -  Reputation: 2912

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:58 AM

Bottom line: Really, all I care about is whether or not I'd be wasting my time.

What do I get out of the partnership?

If you're paying me fairly to work for you, then it's not a waste of my time since I'm getting something out of it (money!). But, how much you pay me had better be proportionate to the work I'll be doing. If you just wrote a five page word doc and called it the game design and I have to do all the rest, I'll be putting in 99.9% of the effort and will expect to get appropriately compensated. If we expect to make $100k, I'd better get $99,900!

If you're not paying me, then I'm already incredibly disinclined to do anything for you because I don't work for free. What will I get? What is the likelihood of project success? My commitment to the project will be as wishy washy as I perceive the legitimacy of your promises to be. If your promises are contingent upon project success and the project looks like it's going to fail, then I'm out. (Note: It can fail in its construction phase or in its business phase)

I'd be happy to work together with Servant of the Lord. He sounds like he's got his shit together and the project will most likely succeed whether or not I'm a part of his team. That's motivating because instead of worrying about whether or not the project will succeed, I'm worrying about whether or not I'm pulling my weight and being an asset instead of a liability to the team. He's got what it takes to see a project through to the end and will deliver results. If you're a designer trying to put together a team, you need to implicitly include evidence that suggests a high probability for project success. What experience do you have? Have you shipped a game in the past? Have you been a part of a team which shipped a game? What will you contribute to the team which a programmer can't do? If I can do everything you do, but you can't do everything I do, then why do I need you?

If you're recruiting, you're also the implied project manager. The project manager for a project is like a train engineer trying to convince people to climb aboard, stay aboard, and get them to the final destination (project success). If at any point your passengers don't think they're going to get to the final destination, they'll jump off and hop onto another train. What kind of train are you operating? Does it exist? Is it a hype train or is it based on something of substance? Is the track already laid to take us to the final destination or do we have to build the track along the way (which means we don't know where we're going)? Once the train gets moving, you are going to be the one shoveling coal into the engine furnace to keep it going with full steam ahead! If your train loses momentum (lack of progress), or steam (lack of money), or derails (lack of direction/side tracked), your passengers are going to jump off and you'll never get them to the end destination. Then, you don't collect the fare and don't get paid. So, when you're recruiting, you're really trying to convince the candidates that you're the best train engineer to take them to their destination. Note that your passengers will have different destionations they want to visit along the way! Some people may just want to make money, some people will want to learn and get experience, others will want to test out an idea/concept, others want recognition, comraderie, status, fame, stability and benefits to provide for their family, etc. The best train engineers can run a train which visits everyones wants/needs while getting everyone to project success. Those are the projects everyone wants to join and be a part of (its not exclusive to just programmers!).

Eric Nevala

Indie Developer | Dev blog


#40 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 21164

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:12 AM

We've discussed the 'studio' issue in another thread earlier this year - the thing about the word 'studio' is it means different things to different people.

Offtopic: Studio


Your post carries a very relevant point though:
How are you presenting yourselves when recruiting? If someone is small and posting an ad, acknowledge it. They should be open and truthful of their current state, and not pretend to be something they aren't - because it's very easy to tell, and they just come off looking bad, and then I won't want to work with them, and won't want them to work with me.

Edited by Servant of the Lord, 30 September 2012 - 11:12 AM.

It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God.
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