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No knowledge of programming, wish to create an android game without aforementioned programming skill?!


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#1 GravutyPerseus1325   Members   -  Reputation: 86

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:37 AM

i want to create a breeding game such as TeamLava's Dragon Story. How do i do this without coding? And i dont want to spend 350 bucks on a lil game like that....

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#2 BCullis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1813

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:45 AM

Games are software. So you're saying you want to create software without writing any code?
Either find someone who will write the code for free, or write the code yourself.
What does $350 have to do with it? Is that the cost of some tool you were looking at using?
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#3 game of thought   Members   -  Reputation: 212

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:00 AM

dream on, i don't think there is game making software for android apps. Besides, why not learn programming?

#4 Pointer2APointer   Members   -  Reputation: 283

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:15 PM

You can develop independent software programs through a program like GameMaker without coding knowledge:

http://www.yoyogames...ker/studio/free

Though you can integrate coding with the GML, it's not required, and you can make games by just dragging and dropping, if this is what you want.

However, the diversity, components, structure, and detail of your game will not be exactly as you want it with a barrier like the GM IDE/libraries halting you from your own graphics structure, innovations, and routines as you exactly want them.

Developing a complex game with lots of AI, on-screen graphics, and good I/O exactly as you want will not happen without programming/coding.

As for an app for Android ... no. Well, actually, yes. jbadams proved me wrong on some areas. >.<

Edited by Pointer2APointer, 25 September 2012 - 02:58 PM.

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#5 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17779

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

You're going to have to learn to program OR you're going to have to spend money on software -- there simply aren't any free, good quality options that will allow a non code to target Android.

Look at Stencyl, Construct 2, and GameSalad. They aren't free, but they MIGHT be able to do what you want. Otherwise you'll need to learn programming.

Hope that helps! :-)

(Posted from mobile.)

#6 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17779

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:43 PM

...and guys, try not to tell someone something is impossible if you're not sure; unfortunately for the OP they aren't free, but I just linked to 3 separate packages that allow a non-coder to target Android. If you're planning to say something isn't available or can't be done you should probably do a quick search to be sure first. ;-)

(Posted from mobile.)

#7 ATC   Members   -  Reputation: 551

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:59 PM

i want to create a breeding game such as TeamLava's Dragon Story. How do i do this without coding? And i dont want to spend 350 bucks on a lil game like that....


Not going to happen... I will give you a break because you're a newbie to the game development world and won't chastise you, but I want you to understand how silly this question/proposition is. Here are some questions which are as silly as what you're asking:
  • How do I design and create my own fighter jet without doing any actual aeronautical engineering?
  • How can I meet girls without leaving my house?
  • How can I win a basketball game while sitting on the sofa?

As jbadams and others have pointed out there are some bits of software out there that let you cobble together games without programming. However, the games you create with such software are going to be sub-standard junk that no one will want to play, much less buy. This "solution" of using "game-maker" software is as half-assed and silly as the "solutions" to the three silly questions I asked above: 1) Use a pen and paper to draw a sketch of a cool-looking fighter jet. 2) Get on the internet and talk to girls in chat rooms. 3) Play a basketball video game or fantasy basketball. None of them are the real thing and no one is going to be impressed with the result.

The fact is, as someone said above, games are software. Software is made up of code (and data), and software is complex. No human being or company is smart enough to create a universal "tool" that lets you put together an interesting and unique video game by clicking buttons and tweaking parameters. It would take a program so huge and complex that no modern computer could even run it. Games are that different and complicated. Thus any games you create with some little game-designing tool are going to be "cookie-cutter" games; games that, like cookies made with the same cookie cutter, all look and feel essentially the same.

So don't be lazy: learn to program. Believe it or not programming is fun, despite what prejudices you may have and what you may have heard. You're probably afraid to start learning because you've heard people joking about how mind-numbing and painful programming can be. Sometimes it can be, lol, but it's still fun. And the sense of reward and accomplishment you get when you solve those extremely difficult problems is one of the greatest feelings you can get from any activity or challenge (except maybe, erm... you know what I'm talking about lol). I love programming so much that I've been doing it for the last 7 years or so, and every morning I wake up excited about what I'm going to do today and what I can try to accomplish. At night I don't want to quit or go to sleep because I want to get in a few more hundred lines of good code and see the result...I often stay up to 2-4am programming, even though I start around 8am! Developing games is especially fun. There's nothing like spending a bunch of time writing some very complex code and seeing it transformed into a beautiful 3D scene that takes your breath away.

So... Go download Visual C# Express and get on Amazon.com and order yourself a good C# book. You can choose another language, but C# is what I suggest. C and C++ are also good, practical choices but they are much more difficult to learn for beginners (and C#, in general, lets you develop robust and stable applications faster). While you're learning C# you can simulataneously start learning the basics of game development by flirting with the XNA Framework. But when you get good at C#, grab yourself a good DirectX10 or 11 book and download SlimDX. SlimDX is an almost 1:1 wrapper of DirectX for C#, so it's virtually DirectX for C#. It's an extremely powerful API which is fully conducive to developing professional-quality games.

If your heart is really set on Android you might want to learn Java or another language instead. But I think Android can run Mono, can't it guys? If so, that means you could still easily use C# by using OpenGL instead of DirectX (OpenTK and Tao Framework are said to be good C# wrappers for OpenGL). You could also look into a good engine, like Unity. Taking this path will be a wise choice because you can immediately and seamlessly port your skills to Windows, and with Mono that can disperse to virtually any platform (Linux/Unix-based systems, Mac, BSD, etc).

However, I'm speaking here out of my own personal bias because I love C#. Other people may suggest other things.

Edited by ATC, 24 September 2012 - 08:00 PM.

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#8 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17779

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:15 PM

As jbadams and others have pointed out there are some bits of software out there that let you cobble together games without programming. However, the games you create with such software are going to be sub-standard junk that no one will want to play, much less buy.

I don't disagree with what you said about programming, but I have to disagree with this. You're generalising: these software packages are a tool just like your compiler and IDE, and they can be used well or used poorly; there are plenty of utterly HORRIBLE games made with programming languages as well.

Legend of Fae was made with game maker. It's quite good, and can be purchased through Steam. There's also a Serious Sam game made with Game Maker on Steam.

To The Moon is an award-winning indie RPG made with RPG Maker and sold online.

Saira was made with Multimedia Fusion, and is available via Steam.

Don't blame the tools for the bad games SOME people make with them - just like your compiler and programming language, they can be used poorly, or they can be used well to make great games.

//EDIT: That isn't to say it's EASY to make good games with these tools. Making a great game is difficult no matter how you approach it, and these tools are not a shortcut, they're just an alternative approach.

#9 ATC   Members   -  Reputation: 551

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:29 AM

Touché...

Though you're not going to convince me that Game Maker or RPG Maker competes with what can be accomplished with DirectX11 or Unreal, for example... When you walk in a store, say Walmart of Gamestop, just pick up any random game off the shelf and look on the back of the box: "Requires DirectX10" or "Requires OpenGL" or something similar will be there. There's really just no substitute for the power of programming. That is, after all, why all of the professionals and big companies in the industry hire programmers. And it was in fact a programmer who wrote Game Maker and RPG Maker in the first place. :)

While you're absolutely right and have proven your point that you can in theory (and sometimes in practice, as your examples show) create a good game with some "game-maker" software, the chances are slim to none. And if the OP is interested in developing a game I think he/she is starting off on the wrong foot by looking for ways to avoid programming or learning anything about software and development processes.

Also, I looked at the three games you mentioned: LoF, TtM and Saira... While I don't doubt these are pretty good games they're far from being AAA-grade titles. I hadn't even heard of these games until just now. There was definitely no line 200m+ long outside Gamestop at 12am when these games were released. I'm not knocking on the games, I'm just saying they are very technically limited. Most gamers these days would consider the graphics to be below sub-standard and wouldn't buy these games for that reason alone (I know, graphics aren't everything but that's the mentality of gamers). That's the problem with "game-maker" software. The technical reality is that you simply don't have the freedom or raw "power" that simply using a programming language would give you. I would also venture to say I could implement those same games a lot easier and faster by programming them than struggling with click-together game-maker software.

So while I must concede that you're correct, I still think the fact stands that the OP better embrace programming if he/she wants to make a game anyone will want to play. And in the end they will be happy they did; if not, he/she will miss out on what could be one of the coolest things they ever do in their life.
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#10 CRYP7IK   Members   -  Reputation: 866

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:36 AM

...


AAA Titles are not what is being discussed here.

GravutyPerseus1325 is not aiming for a AAA title or even for a title that anyone will play, so I am not sure why you even bring them up.

Your chances of even finishing a game using "game-maker"(as you put it) software is much higher than not. Let alone making a good one!

Hell! The engine you mentioned (Unreal) can create whole FPS games without any coding at all, just using simple visual triggers! Does that mean no-one should use it and that you could code something better in a quicker amount of time?


On Topic: Dragon Story is not a simple game and it would have cost the developers much more than $350 to make. I don't know of anything that allows social media integration without any coding or scripting at all so your chances of finding anything is slim. I would recommend just playing around with Game Maker free and make it for PC or Mac first just to test the waters. Creating a game is much hard than you think, especially of such a large scope.

Edited by CRYP7IK, 25 September 2012 - 01:41 AM.

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#11 BitMaster   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3812

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:36 AM

Though you're not going to convince me that Game Maker or RPG Maker competes with what can be accomplished with DirectX11 or Unreal, for example... When you walk in a store, say Walmart of Gamestop, just pick up any random game off the shelf and look on the back of the box: "Requires DirectX10" or "Requires OpenGL" or something similar will be there. There's really just no substitute for the power of programming. That is, after all, why all of the professionals and big companies in the industry hire programmers. And it was in fact a programmer who wrote Game Maker and RPG Maker in the first place. :)


I just checked To the Moon's system requirments on GoG: "3D graphics card compatible with DirectX 7 (compatible with DirectX 9 recommended)". Of course that is no surprise. Making a game with a "programming language" or a different authoring tool like Game Maker has no impact on what the system requirements will be.

While you're absolutely right and have proven your point that you can in theory (and sometimes in practice, as your examples show) create a good game with some "game-maker" software, the chances are slim to none. And if the OP is interested in developing a game I think he/she is starting off on the wrong foot by looking for ways to avoid programming or learning anything about software and development processes.


Learning to program is hard and it is not for everyone. I have friends you would not be able to teach more than reciting "Hello World" from memory. That does not mean they are stupid, they are just different. In exchange they can do things I cannot do or have absolutely no motivation to learn.
With no knowledge of what kind of game the OP wants to create there is no way to say if Game Maker is sufficient for their purposes or not. It might, it might not. He might have to learn programming. Or he can make his game while trying to learn a programming language instead would have made that dream wither and die within two frustrating months.

Also, I looked at the three games you mentioned: LoF, TtM and Saira... While I don't doubt these are pretty good games they're far from being AAA-grade titles. I hadn't even heard of these games until just now. There was definitely no line 200m+ long outside Gamestop at 12am when these games were released. I'm not knocking on the games, I'm just saying they are very technically limited. Most gamers these days would consider the graphics to be below sub-standard and wouldn't buy these games for that reason alone (I know, graphics aren't everything but that's the mentality of gamers). That's the problem with "game-maker" software. The technical reality is that you simply don't have the freedom or raw "power" that simply using a programming language would give you. I would also venture to say I could implement those same games a lot easier and faster by programming them than struggling with click-together game-maker software.


No one person is going to make an AAA game. No two people are going to make an AAA game. No group of dedicated people is going to make an AAA game, no matter their skill, unless they (1) have a lot of money lying around, (2) find a way to get funding from a publisher or (3) manage to run a successful Kickstarter/Indiegogo campaign. None of these possibilities is likely. For a mobile game (as envisioned by the OP) none of these things apply anyway. You do not invest something north of a million dollars into a small game that will probably have to be sold for as little as a dollar to be competitive at all.
That aside, I have less and less fun with the big AAA titles for years now and several small Indie titles you so easily dismiss have had a significantly higher fun return for me.

#12 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17779

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:08 AM

I don't know of anything that allows social media integration without any coding or scripting at all so your chances of finding anything is slim.

Construct 2 has an official Facebook plugin, although I haven't tried it and aren't sure exactly what capabilities are offered. I don't know of any such facilities in other packages, but I imagine such a thing would be a pretty popular feature - I'm sure if it isn't already available in other packages it probably will be very soon.

While I don't doubt these are pretty good games they're far from being AAA-grade titles.
[...]
Most gamers these days would consider the graphics to be below sub-standard and wouldn't buy these games for that reason alone.

The OP isn't aiming to make a AAA-grade title. As to what "most gamers" will buy, you're probably correct if you consider the target market of AAA studios, but thankfully for indie and hobbyist developers there are enough other gamers to make more achievable games like Bejeweled, Draw Something and Angry Birds multi-million dollar successes. Any of those games could conceivably be made with a package similar to Game Maker.

I love programming, but it isn't for everyone, and it simply isn't accurate to say it's the only viable option. This doesn't mean those people can avoid the hard work of creating a game, but it does offer them an alternative approach -- they'll still need to put in hour upon hours learning, and they'll still have to do the hard work to create the game.

Edited by jbadams, 25 September 2012 - 03:35 AM.


#13 ATC   Members   -  Reputation: 551

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:12 AM

I just checked To the Moon's system requirments on GoG: "3D graphics card compatible with DirectX 7 (compatible with DirectX 9 recommended)". Of course that is no surprise. Making a game with a "programming language" or a different authoring tool like Game Maker has no impact on what the system requirements will be.


That was exactly my point... Somewhere along the line programming was involved, as this is the world of software. :-)

I could say more but I will just withdraw. I had already conceded defeat to jbadams who knows far more about the subject than I do, but I'm still getting assaulted with downvotes. And I don't want to continue throwing my thoughts into the mix if it's annoying people that much. After all, it's about helping the OP; not trying to "win".

All I will say beyond that is that I still hold to my opinion that anyone wanting to create a video game should embrace programming. It's not only for making your own video games but it's a skill that could land you a job in a variety of industries. For instance, if you're a good DirectX/OpenGL programmer you might land a job at a large investment company writing real-time trading and charting software. A good physics programmer might end up with a job at Lockheed-Martin. If you use Game Maker you might make a good game but you're going to miss out on a lot, and it's not a skill anyone is likely to hire you for.

That is all... sorry if anything I said conveyed bad information or upset anyone, since I honestly didn't know as much about this topic as jbadams and some of you.
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#14 Pointer2APointer   Members   -  Reputation: 283

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:04 PM

Edited my last post.

Sorry for stating that I "knew" there was no way to develop for the Android OS without coding knowledge.

Truth is, now that I think about it, you can do so many things nowadays that you couldn't 10-20 years ago in software development and production.

GameMaker puts ease on the souls of those less eager to be more of a hardcore programmer using C++ and graphics libraries, etc.

They are all software, and many easy-to-use programs can give direct executables from drag-and-drop interfaces, but, to me at least, it's not really programming a game if you use a drag-and-drop interface and millions of drop down options all presented, modified, and designed for you.

Programming should be telling what needs to be done, not being told what's available to me to make something out of with your otherwise inclusive arrangements and limitations.

However, the gift of things is that even if you don't want to learn programming, you can still "program your own executable software".

No offense, but it is true that programming from the ground up without tools, pre-defined interfaces, window and memory management, loadable/insertable modules, sounds, effects, and rendering 3-D models, is not for everyone.

Edited by Pointer2APointer, 25 September 2012 - 03:09 PM.

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#15 timothyjlaird   Members   -  Reputation: 404

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:51 PM

The only thing that even comes close to "no programming" is Unity 3d. Per the website $1900(unity pro+android basic) or $3000(unity pro+android pro) is available. You'll still be scripting at a bare minimum...and if you don't want to program I doubt you'll get anywhere with scripting. Why are you here then?

Also, android game development isn't the best place to start. You don't even really have control over the life of the program...you just react. For example, if the user tilts the screen you have to drop everything you are doing, save the state before the OS kills your program, then you have to reload everything from state once it starts back up again.

Android life cycle...
http://developer.android.com/guide/components/activities.html

Edited by timothyjlaird, 25 September 2012 - 10:55 PM.


#16 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17779

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:50 AM

The only thing that even comes close to "no programming" is Unity 3d.

I take it you didn't bother to read the topic before responding...


But in the spirit of getting this back on topic and helping the original poster:

I listed some packages which can target Android without programming above:There may well be other such packages that can target the platform, but you'll need to research yourself to find them, as those are the only ones I'm aware of.

All of those options have some form of free version available -- I'd suggest trying all three and seeing what sort of capabilities they offer and how comfortable you are with them. You will have to spend some money to target Android with any of these however, although some of them are cheaper than the $350 you originally mentioned if the actual figure is important and you're willing to spend less. You can add Android exporting to Game Maker Pro for a total cost of $300.

There are some free options around for PC, but nothing that targets Android -- and there's unlikely to be any free options that are capable of doing so for a long time.


Otherwise, you'll need to learn programming instead -- and it really is a rewarding activity! For Android development you would most likely want to start out with Java, and I would suggest learning the basics of the language by programming on/for Windows PC instead of starting out with the added difficulties of Android deployment and performance issues.

If you let us know what approach you're choosing to take we can offer more specific advice. Posted Image

Edited by jbadams, 26 September 2012 - 01:12 AM.


#17 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5991

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:55 AM


As jbadams and others have pointed out there are some bits of software out there that let you cobble together games without programming. However, the games you create with such software are going to be sub-standard junk that no one will want to play, much less buy.

I don't disagree with what you said about programming, but I have to disagree with this. You're generalising: these software packages are a tool just like your compiler and IDE, and they can be used well or used poorly; there are plenty of utterly HORRIBLE games made with programming languages as well.

Legend of Fae was made with game maker. It's quite good, and can be purchased through Steam. There's also a Serious Sam game made with Game Maker on Steam.

To The Moon is an award-winning indie RPG made with RPG Maker and sold online.

Saira was made with Multimedia Fusion, and is available via Steam.

Don't blame the tools for the bad games SOME people make with them - just like your compiler and programming language, they can be used poorly, or they can be used well to make great games.

//EDIT: That isn't to say it's EASY to make good games with these tools. Making a great game is difficult no matter how you approach it, and these tools are not a shortcut, they're just an alternative approach.


You should probably add Myst to that list as it was made with HyperCard(Which didn't require much programming), it was also the best selling game for the PC in the 90s (6 million copies sold) and is still one of the best selling PC games of all time.
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#18 GravutyPerseus1325   Members   -  Reputation: 86

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:16 AM

Actually, thank you all for your suggestions and somrtimes-rude criticisms lol no offends. Okay, so Id better learn programming I guess. The thing is, I don't know any language other than a bit of BASIC. And I cant create a game with that. Ive started doing onljne tutorials on Java and c#, so I guess ill be able to develop after maybe a year? And thanks everyone again for your time and patience with a noon like me!




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