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My Philosophy


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#41 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2177

Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:11 PM

...


That's nice and all, but I guess you don't want to be a homeless, because your passion is not earning you money. So you need a job. And if passion is elsewhere, maybe you aim for money (that's maybe the only aspect at this point), and if you are lucky, you can earn enough to do your passion outside the work hours.

Plus you may become responsible for not just yourself. My brother's girlfriend was so passionate about something, that she actually fucked up my brother's whole life and almost got our entire family to bankrupcy. Doing a job, "just a job" didn't fit in her world. She wasn't "stupid", she was selfish, arrogant and irresponsible.

We are extremely lucky that our passion is demanded, cheap as hell and easily accessible. If someone hasn't found a passion like that, or hasn't found a passion at all, then I don't see why we lucky ones should judge them. I think following your passion much simpler than finding one (but that's another topic, I'm not defending passionless people).

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#42 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1721

Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:08 AM

Interesting twist in the argument .... * grabs some popcorn *

I remember that before I turned 18, I wanted to be a paleontologist.

When 18 came around, there was no college for me, it was work or live on the street - literally.
I had a minumum wage job as a janitor. Even with a room mate, it was hard to pay the rent and bills. After 6 months ( of turning 18 ) I joined the army so that I could have a better life.

It's been over 14 years since than, and I still am not doing anything I truly enjoy doing. I have an associates in communications, a BA in general science, and several certificates in various fields - all of which are useless in finding work. I'm yet again going back to school for yet another technology certification, which I hope will make me more hire-able.
My point in all this? Life isn't a fairy tail with happy endings - it's quite easy to fail, even if you try your hardest to succeed.

Edited by Shippou, 28 September 2012 - 10:09 AM.

 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#43 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4692

Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:24 PM

Because if you remove all the parts of computer science that actually apply to writing software, you are left with mathematics...

Or the algorithm to producing 3D graphics.... :shrug:
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#44 Shaquil   Members   -  Reputation: 815

Posted 28 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

That's nice and all, but I guess you don't want to be a homeless, because your passion is not earning you money. So you need a job. And if passion is elsewhere, maybe you aim for money (that's maybe the only aspect at this point), and if you are lucky, you can earn enough to do your passion outside the work hours.

We are extremely lucky that our passion is demanded, cheap as hell and easily accessible. If someone hasn't found a passion like that, or hasn't found a passion at all, then I don't see why we lucky ones should judge them. I think following your passion much simpler than finding one (but that's another topic, I'm not defending passionless people).


Before I started programming, I was an English major. I wrote stories and articles about video games, and recorded music all day. At the time, had you asked me what was on my mind, I would've said "I desperately need a job." I knew what was coming. My plan was to keep doing what I loved, but also not be homeless. This is 100% different from someone who says "I'm majoring in business because I want to make money." and their hobbies include watching America's Got Talent and chatting with friends. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make money, or not having a passion. My entire point was that people who have never had a passion don't understand what it means to have one. People who have had a passion, but couldn't follow it or chose some alternate path for whatever reason know exactly what it's like to be completely obsessed with something and not care if it'll make you money or not.

Most non-writers may not know this, so for those of you who are unaware: Most writers don't make a lot of money. But I don't want to go down this rabbit hole, really. Anyway, I think we completely agree.

Interesting twist in the argument .... * grabs some popcorn *

I remember that before I turned 18, I wanted to be a paleontologist.

When 18 came around, there was no college for me, it was work or live on the street - literally.
I had a minumum wage job as a janitor. Even with a room mate, it was hard to pay the rent and bills. After 6 months ( of turning 18 ) I joined the army so that I could have a better life.

It's been over 14 years since than, and I still am not doing anything I truly enjoy doing. I have an associates in communications, a BA in general science, and several certificates in various fields - all of which are useless in finding work. I'm yet again going back to school for yet another technology certification, which I hope will make me more hire-able.
My point in all this? Life isn't a fairy tail with happy endings - it's quite easy to fail, even if you try your hardest to succeed.


This is exactly the nightmare scenario that I (maybe completely stupidly) think I'd rather risk homelessness than fall into. The mere mention of the word hire-able makes my skin crawl. It'd be AWESOME if I could work at a place like 5D Robotics. Not because they probably make a hell of a lot of money, but because I really really love programming and building robots, and I am completely behind them. I believe in their mission. I'm not saying that a company like that is the only option; what I'm saying is if the alternative to "going big" in that sense is "going as small as possible" in the sense of trying to be a coder at some little company writing business apps that may never see the light of day (nothing wrong with business apps, but it's not my thing), or just trying to find any job that involves programming just so I can pay the bills and keep my netflix subscription active, then I'd rather not even program. There could be nothing worse in my mind.

Edited by Shaquil, 28 September 2012 - 03:41 PM.


#45 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 10242

Posted 28 September 2012 - 04:09 PM

That's nice and all, but I guess you don't want to be a homeless, because your passion is not earning you money. So you need a job. And if passion is elsewhere, maybe you aim for money (that's maybe the only aspect at this point), and if you are lucky, you can earn enough to do your passion outside the work hours.

My passion is philosophy. And I wouldn't work in software (despite the money), if I didn't find daily opportunities to apply philosophy in my work.

I don't believe that it is so very different for English majors, or anyone else for that matter.

Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#46 Casey Hardman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2230

Posted 30 September 2012 - 03:53 AM

OK, I'm going to figure out who's right based on a foolproof system here:
-------


...

Bullshit.

Swiftcoder (2286) disagrees with Shippou (167)
Winning: Swiftcoder (2286 > 167)
-------


...

Which leads to this philosophy... "The Man can bring you down. But it's your choice to stay there."

Alpha_ProgDes (1582) supports Swiftcoder (2286) with philosophy (1.25x reputation multiplier applied to supporter)
Winning: Swiftcoder ((2286 + 1977) > 167)
-------


...

Yea, I mean, it's not like we have to deal with external factors that are simply beyond our control. /src

Goran Milovanovic (505) disagrees with Swiftcoder (2286)
Winning: Swiftcoder ((2286 + 1977) > (167 + 505))
-------


...

Or the unemployment rate and the nation's economic situation

Dwarf King (448) disagrees with Swiftcoder (2286)
Winning: Swiftcoder ((2286 + 1977) > (167 + 505 + 448))
-------


...

This. Times ten.

FableFox (162) supports Dwarf King (448) with multiplication (supported individual's reputation will be multiplied)
Winning: Shippou ((2286 + 1977) < ((162 + 167 + 505 + 4480)))
-------


...

But the issue was doing what you enjoy, not being employed at all.

mdwh (340) disagrees with Swiftcoder (2286)
Winning: Shippou ((2286 + 1977) < ((340 + 162 + 167 + 505 + 4480)))
-------


...

I agree with swiftcoder.

slayemin (765) agrees with Swiftcoder (2286)
Winning: Shippou ((2286 + 1977 + 765) < ((340 + 162 + 167 + 505 + 4480)))
-------


...

...

I can't find "I agree" or "I disagree" anywhere...
I'll just skip this one, I can't just read the post, that's insane
-------


...

Yeah, you're exactly right. (cut) I stand corrected.

slayemin (765) avoids internal strife with member of the same group; stands corrected afterwards for a viewpoint amplification bonus (doubles both individuals' reputation)
Winning: Swiftcoder ((2286 + 3954 + 1530) > ((340 + 162 + 167 + 505 + 4480)))
-------

Wait...is there a reason behind not being able to upvote/downvote people in the Lounge subforum?
Is reputation supposed to be irrelevant here?
...I guess I should go to different subforums...I can't just view opinions without knowing which one is right based on reputation, can I?

#47 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2177

Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:16 AM

The reputation system is to reflect programming knowledge and experience and the usefulness of the poster's post in the matter.
It's not there to represent how she thinks about life and other crap.

Edited by szecs, 30 September 2012 - 04:20 AM.


#48 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 9105

Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:18 AM

I can't just view opinions without knowing which one is right based on reputation, can I?

Every opinion is right. That's why they're called opinions, and not statements.

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#49 Memories are Better   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 769

Posted 30 September 2012 - 02:57 PM

I consider and treat programming / learning as a game, it is never about money and it works, I program because its fun, products get created eventually as a result and money is made but it was always a game.

I understand where the op is coming from, people these days are so obsessed about making money it is worrying

#50 Heath   Members   -  Reputation: 344

Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:48 PM

I just got news that one of my co-workers had a heart attack. He's in his 40's. Over the last decade, he got into some investments that have come back to bite him, and finances are a pain.

And that's my warning shot to stay calm, don't overeat or overdrink, keep life simple, and do things for the right reasons.

#51 Oberon_Command   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1940

Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:10 PM


I can't just view opinions without knowing which one is right based on reputation, can I?

Every opinion is right. That's why they're called opinions, and not statements.


You appear to have a different definition of "statement" than most people I know. In my world, a "statement" is not necessarily a statement of fact; statements of opinion exist. A statement is what we use to communicate facts and opinions. Statements which evaluate to false exist.

Every sentence in this post is a statement. So are "x=x" and "1=0".

Herein I also contest the idea that all opinions are right. If anything, I think all opinions are wrong; I use "right" to refer to statements which evaluate to true in an objective truth space. Since an objectively truth space does not exist or is unknowable, there are therefore no statements which evaluate to true in this truth space. However, I don't think anyone would dispute that some knowable truth spaces approximate the objective truth space in certain circumstances. I call statements of opinion which evaluate to true in these truth spaces "right." I think, if put in these terms, most people I know would agree with me.

Edited by Oberon_Command, 30 September 2012 - 05:22 PM.


#52 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 9105

Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:23 PM

You appear to have a different definition of "statement" than most people I know. In my world, a "statement" is not necessarily a statement of fact; statements of opinion exist. A statement is what we use to communicate facts and opinions. Statements which evaluate to false exist.

Every sentence in this post is a statement. So are "x=x" and "1=0".

Herein I also contest the idea that all opinions are right. If anything, I think all opinions are wrong; I use "right" to refer to statements which evaluate to true in an objective truth space. Since an objectively truth space does not exist or is unknowable, there are therefore no statements which evaluate to true in this truth space. However, some truth spaces approximate the objective truth space. I call statements of opinion which evaluate to true in these truth spaces "right." I think, if put in these terms, most people I know would agree with me.

Fine, replace "statement" with "fact" if you want to. But an opinion is inherently subjective and so cannot be contested (unless it is viewed as a fact), so there is no such thing as a "right" or "wrong" opinion in an absolute sense. In fact, you might find most opinions wrong, except yours which is right *to you*. This is what I meant by saying that any opinion is right to his beholder. Of course it depends on how you define "right", on how you define "beholder", on how you define "truth", on how you define "objectivity", etc... hiding behind definitions is a waste of time. You all know what I meant (and if you did not, this should make it clear).

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#53 Oberon_Command   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1940

Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:00 PM

Of course it depends on how you define "right", on how you define "beholder", on how you define "truth", on how you define "objectivity", etc... hiding behind definitions is a waste of time. You all know what I meant (and if you did not, this should make it clear).


I am of the opinion that hiding behind "every opinion is right" is similarly a waste of time in most cases. It is true that argument of taste is ultimately futile, but not all opinions are taste. Some may be shown to be wrong for all viewpoints that acknowledge evidence that contradicts them.

I personally try to keep out of arguments where opinions are unfalsifiable (ie. arguments of taste), but that's just me.

Edited by Oberon_Command, 30 September 2012 - 07:08 PM.


#54 JohnnyCode   Members   -  Reputation: 273

Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:53 PM

I have this dream that once I will make a kick-ass software, so that I will run out of this rat race called 'job'.
But I can't seem to come up with anything, unless the game in my head, which is extremly hard to acomplish, since it is not only coding the game needs those days(mocap, characters ugh..).

If you are really pasionate about programming you will never be able to take a choice on following infamous offer:
"would you rather be banned from girls, or banned from writing executive instructions in any form?"
(If you pick A you are sorry for B, wishing to call it off, and then vice versa, it is crazy)

Programming is like a drug, if you taste it more then 3 times, you get adicted and your priority becomes the drug, not life.

#55 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 10242

Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:25 PM

Programming is like a drug, if you taste it more then 3 times, you get adicted and your priority becomes the drug, not life.

So glad I don't have an addictive personality, in that case.

Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#56 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 9105

Posted 30 September 2012 - 09:25 PM

I am of the opinion that hiding behind "every opinion is right" is similarly a waste of time in most cases.

I agree, after all these Lounge threads are not meant to be productive but rather exist just to kill time, where people feverishly discuss various philosophical subjects and eventually agree to disagree a few pages later. At least that's my take on it, nothing personal.

Some may be shown to be wrong for all viewpoints that acknowledge evidence that contradicts them.

But at this point, doesn't it become a statement of fact rather than an opinion? I see what you mean though, continuing to believe in an objective untruth is just foolish, though it can be difficult to capture all possible viewpoints - and you still have to convince the person of that. Most opinions cannot be proved neither disproved so easily, humans are irrational beings and while logic helps us make consistent decisions, applying it isn't always obvious.

Edited by Bacterius, 30 September 2012 - 10:07 PM.

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#57 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2177

Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:03 PM

I have this dream that once I will make a kick-ass software, so that I will run out of this rat race called 'job'.
But I can't seem to come up with anything, unless the game in my head, which is extremly hard to acomplish, since it is not only coding the game needs those days(mocap, characters ugh..).

If you are really pasionate about programming you will never be able to take a choice on following infamous offer:
"would you rather be banned from girls, or banned from writing executive instructions in any form?"
(If you pick A you are sorry for B, wishing to call it off, and then vice versa, it is crazy)

Programming is like a drug, if you taste it more then 3 times, you get adicted and your priority becomes the drug, not life.


Hmmm.... I often think something like this. Programming and other creating hobbies are (were) like drugs to me. I become totally passionate about something (all I can think about is the thing, I fall asleep with it and wake up with it, I'm counting the minutes to do it again. The Thrill), but somehow it's just not the real "Life".

I'm not using "Life" in the way you use it. Your use (girls, friends, parties, whatever) and obsessive hobbies can go hand in hand (at least for me, because these maniac periods are short). My life and what I can see as my life is not enough somehow, but that's a different topic.

#58 Oberon_Command   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1940

Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:44 PM

But at this point, doesn't it become a statement of fact rather than an opinion?


It becomes both. My point with my first post was that under the definitions I know and use, some opinions are facts. Does an opinion stop being an opinion when it is demonstrated to be correct?

Edited by Oberon_Command, 30 September 2012 - 10:54 PM.


#59 JohnnyCode   Members   -  Reputation: 273

Posted 01 October 2012 - 05:01 AM

My life and what I can see as my life is not enough somehow, but that's a different topic.

I feel about my life the same. I wouldn't say that programming is what I wish to stick to for ever, but it is such a obsesion of mine, that I rather think it is just a contraproductive adiction of mine, rather than good life time. I cannot even say clearly what I think would be "good life time" - and what it should be.

#60 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 01 October 2012 - 06:50 AM

I think a lot of people honestly don't understand the concept of doing something solely because they love it. Most likely, this is because things are rarely sold to people as something they'll love. I mean, anytime I see articles about "What major should I pick?" the subject that is given the highest priority is the average annual salary earned by those who hold a given degree. When a kid complains about school, parents justify dealing with it by saying "You need to go to school and get good grades." Why? "So you can go to a good college." Why? "So you can get a good job." That's it. That's the end goal. Most people aren't ever challenged to really think beyond that. Get a good job, and the credits roll.


I think this is being very overlooked. The argument that people can't do what they're passionate about is dealing with the exception more than the rule. In my experience far more people do what they have to do to get by, not what they are passionate about. I know a lot of my friends took business management degrees in University because it was the most generally applicable degree. Even a lot of people in the CS program and probably the majority of SEs I've worked with outside the game industry weren't passionate about their jobs. They might have been passionate about their computers and hobby projects, but very rarely about their jobs.

I think we get a skewed view of the job market being game developers. We are generally a very passionate bunch. It's easy to forget that not everyone carries that same passion toward their work.

That's sort of the point, though. You don't care because it's not the same field. Software developers make use of theoretical results, both directly and indirectly, but they typically don't do the kind of theoretical work that wins Turing awards and stuff;


I'd imagine if you looked at the number of Turing award winners who have no background in software engineering also, the list would be fairly short. Software engineering is most comparable to applied computer science imo. I'd say they are different, but they overlap to such a degree that without one or the other you'd be seriously hampering yourself.

Edited by way2lazy2care, 01 October 2012 - 06:56 AM.





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