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So, i know nothin but want to make games in the future


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#1 VladTC   Members   -  Reputation: 153

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:13 AM

What should i start learning ? What languages and which paths should i choose. I heard C++ is very good and i tried my hand at it a while ago, i think i was getting into it fairly easily.

Now, i'm not talking about making Audio and images/models/sprites, even though i will probably learn that later or will get some friends / random people to help, what i am talking about now is just programming, Making the core of the game.

I guess this is also basically "what language should i pick to code games" question

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#2 Sooker   Members   -  Reputation: 299

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:47 AM

This should answer your question: www.gamefromscratch.com/post/2011/08/04/I-want-to-be-a-game-developer.aspx

I personally use C# with SharpDX, because I´m not sure about the future of XNA.
But you could use Unity3D with C#: http://unity3d.com/

C++ has Ogre3D, Allegro, SFML, ... as far as i know

If you know your language, you should start writing 2D games like Pong, Space Invaders, ...
Don´t rush to 3D and don´t think about programming a (m)morpg. This are some hard tasks wich need experience.

Know your goal, and get to it.

Edited by Sooker, 03 October 2012 - 11:04 AM.


#3 VladTC   Members   -  Reputation: 153

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:13 AM

Thanks ! I don't think i'd go for Unity, that thing is kinda over-used and.. well its not /that/ good from my point of view.
I started learning C++ a while ago and dropped it since i didn't have time / motivation, but i can start doing it again ! Is there anything specific with it ?
And obviously i wouldn't rush 3D, that looks waaaaaay complicated for me, especially now. Maybe someday

#4 Sooker   Members   -  Reputation: 299

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:30 AM

I recommend that you read this and your questions where to go should be answered. If you know C++ then learning another language shouldn´t be that hard.
The important thing is to master your language.

Edited by Sooker, 03 October 2012 - 11:31 AM.


#5 VladTC   Members   -  Reputation: 153

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:51 AM

thanks for the tips :3 and yeah i'm going through that page already !

#6 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2902

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:36 PM

Hi,

In a more general sense, any of the well supported common languages is just fine for making games. For new game makers, people are recommending C#, Python, or other language more suited to new programmers like me and you. Though XNA seems to be dying, it really has a long way to go before being declared dead. The MonoDevelop (Integrated Development Environment - IDE) and Mono make XNA have 8 more lives. As a matter of fact, Mono framework has the potential to resurrect almost any game base. Visual Studio (Express or more advanced editions - IDE) is quite powerful and commonly used, especially using the C# which is the core, also supporting many other languages.

You can use a Software Development Kit (SDK) like many game engines provide or use an Integrated Development Environment (IDE) even with your first few simple games. If you go this way, then you definately need information and community support to make your first "Hello World" program, "Pong" game, "Pac-Man" version, and so on.

What you do right now is research the community and system which matches your type of game and personal goals. This will probably take at least a few days. It took me a whole month this August, just so you know. Enjoy the research and get used to it, because it is the spine of your future growth.

Many systems allow the new ones to make a game without any programming at first and ease into the programming or do advanced programming, too.

List of Game Engines
http://en.wikipedia....of_game_engines

1) Do some research for a while, but don't wait to long to go to work!
2) Start programming your main language soon and become effective with it, learning the language being a permanent thing.
3) Choose and download the software which you will need to make your programming into a program, for example MonoDevelop, Visual Studio Express, or game engine SDK.
4) Make simple programs, console applications are highly recommended for learning - such as "Hello World", and then soon make some simple 2D games.
5) Community should be chosen by the time you start making your first few games, if not sooner.

Remember to have variety, see working results, and enjoy it! Posted Image

Clinton

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#7 Bluefirehawk   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1232

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:57 PM

I heard C++ is very good and i tried my hand at it a while ago, i think i was getting into it fairly easily.

You are new to programming? If so, I suggest to not use C++. I fear you may underestimate the complexety of C++.

I recently blogged about C++ and the toolchains available for it:

...That's why you shouldn't use C++ for your first big project. You spend so much time figuring out how everything else besides the coding works, how you install tool XY, how do you link correctly, how the HELL do you set up a good cross plattform build environment??...


Like others have suggested, start learning C#, java, Python or whatever. C++ is a beast to tackle. With C++, everything takes a bit more time, effort and knowledge. You see results faster with anything else than C++.

If you want to get professional with your programming, I also suggest you get some books about Design Patterns, Algorithms, Datastructures and maybe some discrete mathematics as well. Then you have a solid understanding of what you are doing and you can even find a job as a programmer.

But whatever you do, have fun with it. You are making games, there is probably no other field, where you can see your dreams get reality.
Project: Project
Setting fire to these damn cows one entry at a time!

#8 VladTC   Members   -  Reputation: 153

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:16 PM

Thanks for your responses !



I heard C++ is very good and i tried my hand at it a while ago, i think i was getting into it fairly easily.

You are new to programming? If so, I suggest to not use C++. I fear you may underestimate the complexety of C++.

I recently blogged about C++ and the toolchains available for it:

...That's why you shouldn't use C++ for your first big project. You spend so much time figuring out how everything else besides the coding works, how you install tool XY, how do you link correctly, how the HELL do you set up a good cross plattform build environment??...


Like others have suggested, start learning C#, java, Python or whatever. C++ is a beast to tackle. With C++, everything takes a bit more time, effort and knowledge. You see results faster with anything else than C++.

If you want to get professional with your programming, I also suggest you get some books about Design Patterns, Algorithms, Datastructures and maybe some discrete mathematics as well. Then you have a solid understanding of what you are doing and you can even find a job as a programmer.

But whatever you do, have fun with it. You are making games, there is probably no other field, where you can see your dreams get reality.


Yeah I am a beginner, but i see myself as a quick an smart learner. Though if C++ is really "delving right into advanced-only territory", i guess i could start with C# And maybe then move to C++ or something ? I dunno :o

Is it really possible to find a job as a programmer without finishing your Uni or whatever ? I don't think so..

Thanks for your answer too, @3Ddreamer !

#9 VladTC   Members   -  Reputation: 153

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

Well, it does seem that C++ Gets better performance while C# is easier to code, according to this: http://code4k.blogspot.de/2011/03/benchmarking-cnet-direct3d-11-apis-vs.html

Thoughts ?

#10 Haps   Members   -  Reputation: 1315

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

Yeah I am a beginner, but i see myself as a quick an smart learner.


Everything looks easy until you try it.

That's not to say you can't try - Just know that it's probably more challenging than you're giving it credit for. How you deal with that challenge is up to you and your abilities.

Is it really possible to find a job as a programmer without finishing your Uni or whatever ?


Possible? Sure. Likely? Well, that depends on what you're bringing to the table. Having a degree is no guarantee, but lacking one doesn't help.

Experience is probably the most valuable thing to a programmer, so having some successful projects on your own can be just as important as someone who puts in the bare minimum to graduate. That said, Education is still right alongside it, and makes landing that first (or second, third, fourth and fifth,) job easier. The biggest benefit to a formal education is that it's standardized, so your employer knows you've got a certain level of knowledge.

For an entry level position, it's usually the education that gets them to look at your resume. It'll be your accomplishments and potential that get them to consider you.

Well, it does seem that C++ Gets better performance while C# is easier to code,


Is it important to you right now that you get better performance on computers that will far exceed what you're capable of programming?

Edited by Haps, 03 October 2012 - 03:38 PM.


#11 Bentm's Games   Members   -  Reputation: 88

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:34 PM

Learn java or c (almost any sort) as first languages, then maybe dive into something else later on like lua. But at first java and c are best, and u can use c with unity too, If you have other members in a team.

#12 Sooker   Members   -  Reputation: 299

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:35 PM

Yes there is a performance gap, but as a beginner, you will not reach a point where the performance is too bad. it also depends on the api.
As you see on your graph, SharpDX isn´t far behind.

#13 VladTC   Members   -  Reputation: 153

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:38 PM

Yup, that's why i'm thinking on starting with C# and moving on to C++ Later on when needed :3

Though now as i read about SharpDX, it has no documentation and.. i guess it would be hard to understand and use ? Maybe i'd start with SlimDX first, i dunno.

Edited by VladTC, 03 October 2012 - 03:42 PM.


#14 Sooker   Members   -  Reputation: 299

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

SharpDX should be no problem, you got enough Demos and you can easily adapt C++ tutorials.
Its not that hard as you might think if you understand C# well.

#15 Haps   Members   -  Reputation: 1315

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:48 PM

XNA is a viable alternative to SharpDX for you, as it has a wealth of supported documentation. Sooker does has some valid reasons for preferring SharpDX, though. There are some questions about XNA's future, but I personally wouldn't bet on it dying out completely. Even in a worst case scenario, it'll be quite a long time before it's inadequate or unusable and the open source Mono may keep the fires burning longer.

You don't have to go with either, but feel free to look at both and see which you take to. The framework that you find easier to learn from probably benefits you the most.

Edited by Haps, 03 October 2012 - 04:43 PM.


#16 Sooker   Members   -  Reputation: 299

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

SharpDX wil provide a high level api soon. It´s under heavy development as you can read on the SharpDX site. it should be released this year.
SHarpDX also features Win8 Metro and DX11. This are my reasons for choosing SharpDX.

#17 VladTC   Members   -  Reputation: 153

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:59 PM

what are low level and high level API's, by the way ? amd i don't really care about Win8, not planning on giving that any attention whatsoever ^^

#18 Haps   Members   -  Reputation: 1315

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:39 PM

Low-level programming language

High-level programming language

Try these Wiki articles to give you with the general concept, although these refer mainly to the difference in languages.

Edited by Haps, 03 October 2012 - 04:40 PM.


#19 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2902

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:51 PM

Low level API examples are OpenGL, Java, and DirectX (Direct3D). High level ones like Java 3D, Ogre, Irrlicht Engine, Axiom 3D Render Engine, Blender, and jMonkey Engine. It is possible to use both low level and high level API in developing a game.

Most games made by intermediate game developers will have the programming matter more than the language used. The C++ AAA games are created by a team, typically, which can utilize the full features of that language. It often takes years to make an AAA game, let alone learn the language added to that.

Most games don't even need the extra features of C++ advanced programming in the bigger picture of things. Most of the games no matter what language if programmed well will not come close to the performance limit of the hardware and should not in any case.

If you really want to learn C++, then do it, but we let you know what you are facing. Posted Image

As for the link to the benchmark of C++ and C#, many things are not mentioned here, such as optimizations, NGen beyond that example, compressions, filters, buffers, wrappers, frameworks, and
just pure need: (Edit: Fixed!)
http://code4k.blogspot.de/2011/03/benchmarking-cnet-direct3d-11-apis-vs.html#!/2011/03/benchmarking-cnet-direct3d-11-apis-vs.html
It does not include the human factor. Posted Image

Clinton

Edited by 3Ddreamer, 03 October 2012 - 06:04 PM.

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#20 VladTC   Members   -  Reputation: 153

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:36 AM

Ah i see, thanks for the answers ^^ And i just checked through the classfields on the website and everyone that's looking for a programmer is always demanding knowledge of C++..




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