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Ooops... XNA is dead?!.


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#21 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3156

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:37 PM

The performance of XNA is not an issue because of the increase in computer performance - hardware, software, and CPU or VGA chipset architecture. DX9 games will be playable for years to come on PCs. The support now comes from various experienced communities for XNA. If anything, XNA games perform better than ever and might increase slightly in the next year or two because of both experience and hardware. For beginners and intermediate game developers, performance of XNA games is not the issue, but the coding habits are the issue. Actually, a less than top performing engine actually makes demand for the programmer to improve the quality of the game source code - an advantage with XNA.


Since you mentioned market, et1337, we know that all these things in this thread effect the interest in XNA. From a marketing strategy point of view, XNA is best left without support in the DX9 form. I am convinced that technical advancements in software and hardware caused the decision.

I agree that from a customer relations point of view it was a decision about XNA which has done short term harm to Microsoft reputation and client retention. Apple and Google will increase gaming market share in the next 2 or 3 years I believe. Microsoft must have a reply to the cross - platform games which are conquering now or perhaps fall too far behind. On the other hand, if Microsoft has something much better than XNA in the lab, then a lot of the damage will be overcome and probably much more interest will appear over what they had with XNA.

XNA is still quite beautiful and powerful enough to use. I feel that it is not dead. Use it for a couple years and you will be glad that you did. A lot of growth and fun is still to be had with it, in my opinion. By the time you become very skilled with it, maybe the next great thing will be there for you, but you will sure be ready for anything.


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Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

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#22 BCullis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1813

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:09 PM

The performance of XNA is not an issue because of the increase in computer performance - hardware, software, and CPU or VGA chipset architecture. DX9 games will be playable for years to come on PCs

One problem you'll run into even if your computer will have legacy DX9 support? Not being able to use shader model 4, 5, and higher features. Beginner/intermediate coders like you mention probably won't need them, but it is something to be aware of when picking a library.
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#23 DmitryNik   Members   -  Reputation: 199

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:55 AM

NVidia have zero relation to UDK. UDK is made by Epic.


OK, my mistake about UDK.

#24 Karsten_   Members   -  Reputation: 1603

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:56 AM

As XNA has proven, it is possible for very popular libraries to disappear. Why did people think differently?

Luckily as others in this thread have stated, there are alternatives like MonoGame.

However, If a language disappears, it is a very different story.

For example the original Visual Basic language (I.e VB6) was dropped by Microsoft in favor of a very different language (VB.NET). Even today I am often contracted to port VB6 code into an available language (usually C++ for the real legacy stuff).

So, perhaps use what ever library you want and just be sure to adapt, however be very afraid of proprietary languages such as LotusScript, UnityScript, C++/CLR, C++/RT, UnityScript because if those die, it is such a pain to recode your whole project.

Edited by Karsten_, 01 December 2012 - 07:21 AM.

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#25 DmitryNik   Members   -  Reputation: 199

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:59 PM

As XNA has proven, it is possible for very popular libraries to disappear. Why did people think differently?


May be because some people really like this library and like the way the things were done: convenience, effectiveness and efficiency. I don't know, some people just stick with that.

So, perhaps use what ever library you want and just be sure to adapt, however be very afraid of proprietary languages such as LotusScript, UnityScript, C++/CLR, C++/RT, UnityScript because if those die, it is such a pain to recode your whole project.


OK, in this list you actually can put whatever language or script used nowadays. Recoding is always a painful procedure and everybody want to avoid it. But, for instance, you as language vendor, could announce developers officially that current technology will be killed of very soon. Microsoft just drop off XNA about 2 years ago and they said nothing. This is the only reason, why do people keep asking, what happened to XNA? Why doesn't XNA work with Win 8? etc. Moreover there should not have been any rumors around at all.

Edited by DmitryNik, 01 December 2012 - 05:56 PM.


#26 superman3275   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2011

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:02 PM

No offense, however this is the 7th thread on this topic in the past two months :)!

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#27 Postie   Members   -  Reputation: 964

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:03 PM

When the next Xbox is released, it's going to need an SDK/GDK of some sort. That could be a new version of XNA, or something completely different. If it's due in a few years I imagine they'd need to be getting it into the hands of developers pretty soon so there are games available at release?

Personally I think they goofed when they tried to make the exact same framework work for all conceivable devices, not recognising that the long hardware cycle of the Xbox compared to the PC/mobile/tablet means it's holding you back for quite a few years.
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#28 6677   Members   -  Reputation: 1058

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:42 PM

Commercial games are not made with XNA though. Big name studios just get hardware capable of running unsigned code and the xbox compilers and documentation etc. They can run native ASM on it if they want.

They have no obligation to provide a service like XNA and the XBLIG. Sony and nintendo do fine without (although sony now have a similar program for the vita). I think they will give us access anyway, why would they take that away when they make a nice little profit from royalties and indie licenses?

#29 Starnick   Members   -  Reputation: 1205

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:18 AM

I've bought - and played - at least two XNA games commercially via steam (Terraria and Magicka...Magicka being one that looks more like a "real commercial" game in quality, as well as new content). Probably a few others, especially since the "steam green lighting" system is getting more and more indie games onto the distribution platform.

I'm sure if there is no XNA sequel (or any official C#/.NET graphics binding from Microsoft), eventually more and more folks will be using something more up to date like SharpDX and it will be true that you won't see anyone using XNA commercially . But that's exactly what it is too...a means to do the graphics. Xna has some extra incentivies that makes it nice to use for game making, but at the end of the day most of that work is done (at least, the quality ones) through your efforts, sweat, and blood (or tears).

Edited by Starnick, 02 December 2012 - 09:18 AM.


#30 TheChubu   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4349

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:23 PM

No offense, however this is the 7th thread on this topic in the past two months Posted Image!

Too late, I'm offended now! Posted Image

Nah seriously, does somebody knows if there are any news regarding a future online platform of the next Xbox? 'Cause, as I see it, XNA offered to "tie in" Microsoft's biggest platforms around. It does surely looks like a good deal for them, specially with the direction they're going with Windows 8.

Imagine a single XNAish framework that works across all Windows 8 editions and Xbox, obviously passing through Windows Store first. It would be strange not to see such thing in the next few years.

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#31 Xanather   Members   -  Reputation: 708

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:26 AM

I feel like they have "dropped" XNA because of their efforts on native development and windows 8/WinRT/WP8...

The lead developer (Shawn Hargreaves) of XNA has moved on to... a XNA-like framework for C++ http://directxtk.codeplex.com/.

Just use MonoGame (actively developed clone of XNA) or SharpDX (which will require you to learn the actual DirectX library).

I would be very happy if they happen to create another XNA-like framework for the new xbox or upgrade the current XNA.

Edited by Xanather, 03 December 2012 - 08:36 AM.


#32 6677   Members   -  Reputation: 1058

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:54 AM

With their native code push I don't think its entirely infeasible to suggest that the "XNA Replacement" on the next gen console could well support native code with a few restrictions, maybe still requiring the indie license and using the same distribution methods, if this is the case it would also be theoretically possible for a monogame port I guess. I wonder if monogame on WP8 is possible

#33 vdaras   Members   -  Reputation: 237

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:43 AM

With their native code push I don't think its entirely infeasible to suggest that the "XNA Replacement" on the next gen console could well support native code with a few restrictions, maybe still requiring the indie license and using the same distribution methods, if this is the case it would also be theoretically possible for a monogame port I guess. I wonder if monogame on WP8 is possible


Monogame is definitely possible on WP8. As is Microsoft's XNA.

The problem with XNA is that, from what we know so far, it won't be supported anymore..so no new WP8 features for XNA apps.

#34 6677   Members   -  Reputation: 1058

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:22 PM

Well lack of XNA support is why I was thinking monogame. But I guess really thats a pointless suggestion come to think of it, its easy enough to backport to XNA which for now still exists and can deploy to WP7, WP8 then runs the WP7 apps no problem so I guess really it doesnt matter if monogame works or not, although a native version would still be cool.

#35 Zipster   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 675

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:58 PM

Nah seriously, does somebody knows if there are any news regarding a future online platform of the next Xbox? 'Cause, as I see it, XNA offered to "tie in" Microsoft's biggest platforms around. It does surely looks like a good deal for them, specially with the direction they're going with Windows 8.

Imagine a single XNAish framework that works across all Windows 8 editions and Xbox, obviously passing through Windows Store first. It would be strange not to see such thing in the next few years.


If the XBox 720 is running some version of Windows 8 or RT, then the "tie in" would just be the Windows SDK. It has already subsumed DirectX. If there was a native framework like XNA being developed, that's where it would go, and you'd automatically have access to it on all Microsoft platforms. However I doubt they would bother with such a framework, because it appears they don't really need to. Most major commercial developers are already using their own native in-house engines or licensing products like UDK and Unity, and frameworks like MonoGame have already started to pick up the slack for managed game developers. Microsoft created a vacuum, and it has started to fill on its own. No use spending resources on a problem that's solving itself for free Posted Image

#36 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3156

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

That makes sense in the short term, but there are tech innovations coming on the horizon. We wonder what Microsoft will launch to take advantage of them.


Clinton

Edited by 3Ddreamer, 05 December 2012 - 09:51 PM.

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#37 DmitryNik   Members   -  Reputation: 199

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:01 AM

Here is some info about XNA and WP 8 OS: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/windowsphone/develop/jj207003(v=vs.105).aspx

Also, here http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windowsphone/develop/jj206940(v=vs.105).aspx could be found, what's new in Win 8 SDK.

But, no, new apps that target WP 8.0 OS can't be developed.

Edited by DmitryNik, 08 December 2012 - 10:05 AM.


#38 kunos   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2207

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:18 AM

I find a bit amusing how somebody here is convinced that MS will support "indie" style development on the new XBox. Ya they did on the current one, but it came long after the XBox release and I have the impression that the quality of the games released with XNA on the XBox was from poor to very poor to very poor with avatars. I don't have numbers, but I doubt it was a profitable move for MS.. so I will be really surprised to see an "indie" support on the new consoles, at least for some years after the launch.

As for being "dead".. it works on X360, PC (pretty much every Windows OS out there) and WP7x ... how can this be defined "dead" is beyond my comprehension.

Edited by kunos, 08 December 2012 - 10:19 AM.

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#39 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3156

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:35 AM

Well, XNA no doubt hooked and inspired many hobby and some eventual pro game programmers, so the advantages long term in that are obvious, but shorter term you are totally correct.


Clinton

Edited by 3Ddreamer, 08 December 2012 - 10:36 AM.

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#40 DmitryNik   Members   -  Reputation: 199

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:16 AM

I find a bit amusing how somebody here is convinced that MS will support "indie" style development on the new XBox. Ya they did on the current one, but it came long after the XBox release and I have the impression that the quality of the games released with XNA on the XBox was from poor to very poor to very poor with avatars. I don't have numbers, but I doubt it was a profitable move for MS.. so I will be really surprised to see an "indie" support on the new consoles, at least for some years after the launch.

As for being "dead".. it works on X360, PC (pretty much every Windows OS out there) and WP7x ... how can this be defined "dead" is beyond my comprehension.


Yeah, how remoting(another MS technique used several years ago. And as far as I know MS doesn't develop or supported it anymore either ) could be dead, if it still could be used? =)) I can't call something alive if it doesn't supported anymore(active developing, adding new features etc.). Above links could be considered only as a relief for some persons, who don't believe XNA will not be developed anymore. The sadest part of this story is: they(persons) will teach us this crap(XNA) in the uni after this X-mas, instead of changing the program.

Edited by DmitryNik, 08 December 2012 - 11:20 AM.





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