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Can you program websites, too?


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#1 superman3275   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1976

Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:24 PM

I just got "HTML The Easy Way" the other day and took a break from c++ today. I downloaded coffee cup HTML editor this morning and spent all dayading the book and programming HTML. I Must honestly say, I have a higher respect for web developers now. It's a completely different way of programmig, and I really enjoyed today. The book was great. Quick, and t the point. It gave me a firm knowledge of Basic HTML, and made close to the end wen it showed a JavaScript example to describe the power of the language I got "JavaScript: Just The Basics". I believe after reading through that book and designing some good looking websites, I'll probably start doingfeelance websites as well as software.

Edited by JTippetts, 08 December 2012 - 11:54 PM.

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#2 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1318

Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:20 AM

Is this a question? The way you worded your post, sounds like a statement.
To answer the title of your post, yes you can "program web sites" .

I would recommend learning PHP & SQL ( in addition to what you have already learned) to give your site(s) more sophistication. HERE is a good tutorial series.
What's very nice about PhP - it's easy to learn, and there are FREE Apache servers you can get to host your projects.
WAMP ( For Windows )
MAMP ( For Mac )
LAMP ( For Linux )

 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#3 azonicrider   Members   -  Reputation: 421

Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:25 AM

I hate to be honest, but good luck doing freelance work.

The field is so big, that you'll find yourself competing with guys that have a massive portfolio, 10+ years of knowledge, and are willing to do the job for peanuts.

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#4 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:13 PM

Is this a question? The way you worded your post, sounds like a statement.
To answer the title of your post, yes you can "program web sites" .

I would recommend learning PHP & SQL ( in addition to what you have already learned) to give your site(s) more sophistication. HERE is a good tutorial series.
What's very nice about PhP - it's easy to learn, and there are FREE Apache servers you can get to host your projects.
WAMP ( For Windows )
MAMP ( For Mac )
LAMP ( For Linux )


At this point I would recommend staying far away from PHP. The cons of the language and the community far outweigh the supposed benefits of the platform (free and easy to learn) when the same can be said of Node.JS, Ruby, Python, and even C# with ASP.NET.

http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/

#5 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1318

Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

I do not agree with that story you linked to.
The guy who wrote it is a huge C fan ( it shows badly ) - his only complaint is the language syntax.

Second off, there is nothing that can replace the usefulness of PhP for web site design, unless you like coding action script. ( HTML 5 is not up for debate, since there is no standards set, and most web browsers do NOT fully support it yet ) .

Third - a lot of languages have dead communities - why is is necessary to have an active community to be able to code?

Forth - the language syntax is a lot like Python, however PhP is better adapted for web applications. The guy in the story hates interpreted languages because they do not have the same syntax as C.

Fifth - I would love to see his explanation of why he wants everyone to code webpages in C .

Edited by Shippou, 09 December 2012 - 02:46 PM.

 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#6 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:46 PM

I do not agree with that story you linked to.
The guy who wrote it is a huge C fan ( it shows badly ) - his only complaint is the language syntax.

Second off, there is nothing that can replace the usefulness of PhP for web site design, unless you like coding action script. ( HTML 5 is not up for debate, since there is no standards set, and most web browsers do NOT fully support it yet ) .

Third - a lot of languages have dead communities - why is is necessary to have an active community to be able to code?

Forth - the language syntax is a lot like Python, however PhP is better adapted for web applications. The guy in the story hates interpreted languages because they do not have the same syntax as C.

Fifth - I would love to see his explanation of why he wants everyone to code webpages in C .


Based on this post it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about regarding web development and you should not be recommending things to other inexperienced web developers.

#7 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5770

Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:56 PM


Is this a question? The way you worded your post, sounds like a statement.
To answer the title of your post, yes you can "program web sites" .

I would recommend learning PHP & SQL ( in addition to what you have already learned) to give your site(s) more sophistication. HERE is a good tutorial series.
What's very nice about PhP - it's easy to learn, and there are FREE Apache servers you can get to host your projects.
WAMP ( For Windows )
MAMP ( For Mac )
LAMP ( For Linux )


At this point I would recommend staying far away from PHP. The cons of the language and the community far outweigh the supposed benefits of the platform (free and easy to learn) when the same can be said of Node.JS, Ruby, Python, and even C# with ASP.NET.

http://me.veekun.com...-of-bad-design/


C# with ASP.NET is still a bit more expensive hosting wise though, (Mono doesn't support the latest version which makes it kinda shitty). but yeah, PHP is awful, it was great when the only competition was classic ASP but now... no thanks. Python is far nicer.
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#8 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

C# with ASP.NET is still a bit more expensive hosting wise though, (Mono doesn't support the latest version which makes it kinda shitty). but yeah, PHP is awful, it was great when the only competition was classic ASP but now... no thanks. Python is far nicer.


Up to 10 Azure Websites are free. You can host PHP, Node.JS or ASP.NET websites.

http://www.windowsaz...ing/calculator/

Run up to 10 Web Sites per sub-region for free in a multi-tenant environment. Seamlessly upgrade to a paid Shared multi-tenant or Reserved instance model as your traffic grows.


Edited by tstrimple, 09 December 2012 - 04:02 PM.


#9 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5770

Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:26 PM


C# with ASP.NET is still a bit more expensive hosting wise though, (Mono doesn't support the latest version which makes it kinda shitty). but yeah, PHP is awful, it was great when the only competition was classic ASP but now... no thanks. Python is far nicer.


Up to 10 Azure Websites are free. You can host PHP, Node.JS or ASP.NET websites.

http://www.windowsaz...ing/calculator/

Run up to 10 Web Sites per sub-region for free in a multi-tenant environment. Seamlessly upgrade to a paid Shared multi-tenant or Reserved instance model as your traffic grows.


Oh, Microsofts cloud thingy, i need to update myself a bit it seems :)
Allthough most decent hosts still charge extra for Windows servers and the azure cloud starts costing as soon as you add a database (which you probably need if you're using any form of serverside scripts)

Edited by SimonForsman, 09 December 2012 - 04:34 PM.

I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#10 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:29 PM

Oh, Microsofts cloud thingy, i need to update myself a bit it seems Posted Image
Allthough most hosts still charge extra for Windows servers and the azure cloud starts costing as soon as you add a database (which you probably need if you're using any form of serverside scripts)


Maybe. This weekend I'm at a hackathon and I'm deploying to Azure Websites and using MongoLab for the database.

#11 hybrid_ham   Members   -  Reputation: 109

Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:37 PM

The competition for web developers is unbelievably fierce.
I've been doing it professionally for around 7 years but over 10 on my own as you have, I also started coding websites for fun before I went to college and got the official degree behind me. All that did really was let me barter for more money. There are people in India that will do website work for about $2USD an hour.

The web changes a lot. I have over 20 languages on my resume and only about 4 of them came from college, the rest I had to learn on my own. You simply can't stop reading in this field and noone pays you to read but they will expect you to know things before them. You also have to be ready to jump into specifications which can be technical but to do it well you have to dig deep. You have to keep up on security and exploits too. You have the added annoyance of browsers changing all the time. Add in mobile devices and you can build a site once then have to tweak it over 5 times or more to get it working in all browsers. SEO is what people will pay the most for but they are not going to help you maintain it. Clients don't want to create content but they want to be number 1 in searches. They don't want to update their graphics over time but they want to be number 1 and most appealing with their ancient site. The worst part is that the majority of them are cheap, cheap, cheap. They get so many things free online that they don't appreciate any of the knowledge it takes to make great websites. They will settle for frameworks and templates just to "get something up" then complain about it without seeking professional help.

Small businesses especially have extremely unrealistic ideas about a website, they will expect to hand you a 3 page pdf document and for you to make their site magnificent at the end of 3 days. They can't tell you why their company is better than any of the others and they can't sell you on who they are. They don't want to talk about the inner workings of their business for fear that someone will point out that they are doing it wrong. It will be up to you to be their marketing guru, graphic designer, and web developer all in one. In return they will buck at you and tell you that everything costs too much money.

When something is wrong on the website - the users never give you any details. It's broken is all they can tell you. You have to beg and goad the real information from them. What page were you on when it happened? What browser were you using? You will have to explain to many of them how to copy and paste or send a picture to you as a screenshot. Many of them are blathering idiots on their computers and aren't used to debugging anything so they don't talk technical - they say - It's broken, fix it. They won't read any instructions you give them on how to use their website, they will type their username or password wrong and still tell you that the site does not work, it's broken and it's your fault. It will take you over 30 minutes per email to aid these people because you have to screenshot every step for them and every click just to explain basic things. As long as 2 weeks will pass and they will again have the same problem and not refer to the original documentation but ask you again to explain it all. They want their hand held through the entire process, they are not peers, they don't know your world and don't care to understand it, they will only tell you, it's broken and blame it on you each time.


Good luck to you if you choose this line of work. The browser compatibilities make it challenging and the clients make it worse. How do you explain to them what has taken you years to learn in the 15 minute conversations they can put aside to talk about their website. It is indeed a challenge. The best sites to work on are the constant ones where a larger company is using their website for forms and sales or information presentation. Those are the clients that understand there will be cost involved and aren't penny pinching. They also will act as a good client and define their needs clearly instead of just complaining about everything you present them. Then there are the web designers and flash junkies that try to make template websites cheaper than you and quicker with little SEO planning. They are the ambulance chasers of the field, they can't exist without Dreamweaver and believe that the way to design is all images, nothing generated or creative in CSS. They will disgust you in time.

All this being said, I love my work, it's the people that sometimes ruin it, like most jobs.

Edited by hybrid_ham, 09 December 2012 - 11:12 PM.


#12 Koobazaur   Members   -  Reputation: 687

Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:24 AM

Bah, I dont "program website too," most of my money right now comes from web development freelancing Posted Image Though I wouldn't call writing HTML as "programming." I always find it amusing when my clients say things like "can you program the button to be a bit higher and bigger?" hehe

I hate to be honest, but good luck doing freelance work.

The field is so big, that you'll find yourself competing with guys that have a massive portfolio, 10+ years of knowledge, and are willing to do the job for peanuts.


Oh god, those guys you can at least compete with; far worse are, as hybrid_ham points out, the guys in India who will do your job for 1/10th of your price. And, of course, not many clients care the code will be unmaintable mess they will need to completely redo five months down the line...


At this point I would recommend staying far away from PHP. The cons of the language and the community far outweigh the supposed benefits of the platform (free and easy to learn) when the same can be said of Node.JS, Ruby, Python, and even C# with ASP.NET.
http://me.veekun.com...-of-bad-design/


I gotta agree with this; after working with both PHP and ASPX, I definitely prefer the latter. But still, WordPress and cheaper hosting is a good enough reason to stick to it.

SEO is what people will pay the most for but they are not going to help you maintain it. Clients don't want to create content but they want to be number 1 in searches.


Yeep, which is what I have been transitioning to for several clients after completing the initial website. But I am smart enough to always clarify its an extra (usually hourly) service, not something I will be willingly do in my free time for them Posted Image

they will expect to hand you a 3 page pdf document and for you to make their site magnificent at the end of 3 days.


Ugh, try the opposite, I got like 50+ page documents or hundreds of photos they expect me to read and pick relevant content. It wouldn't be half bad if it wasn't for the fact that they always, ALWAYS hate the photos you pick, yet will never tell you which photo they want, so it ends up being like this ridiculous back-and-forth goose chase until you randomly pick one they finally accept.

And don't even get me started on the completely abstract and useless feedback you get half the time....

Small businesses especially have extremely unrealistic ideas about a website,


*sigh* sad but true. The worst is the "feature creep" when they just keep adding extra requests and stuffs because "oh implementing that interactive form will only taek you like 5 minutes right?" I've learned to make very concrete specifications/estimates from that.

When something is wrong on the website - the users never give you any details. It's broken is all they can tell you.


Hahaha, oh god THIS. So many times I've heard "xyz is broken" without any idea what "broken" means. And half the time they never reply to your email asking for clarification/details so you have to end up chasing them on their phones (not that they pick up or return calls any more frequently)

----

That being said, once you do find the good clients who, even if ignorant of technology, are willing to work WITH you, and learn what makes your job easier, the job isn't bad at all, and can be quite fun! Hold on to those for the dear life, cause they don't come often.

Edited by Koobazaur, 10 December 2012 - 12:27 AM.

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#13 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1318

Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:45 AM

Based on this post it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about regarding web development and you should not be recommending things to other inexperienced web developers.

I've "only" been creating my own web sites since 1995. Calling me inexperienced due to my choice in languages, is a bit childish, don't you think ?

Edited by Shippou, 10 December 2012 - 05:12 AM.

 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#14 Madhed   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2492

Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:21 AM

Hahaha, oh god THIS. So many times I've heard "xyz is broken" without any idea what "broken" means. And half the time they never reply to your email asking for clarification/details so you have to end up chasing them on their phones (not that they pick up or return calls any more frequently)


Client: The registration page is completely broken!
Me: Um, it looks good to me. Can you check again
Client: No! It's still broken, please do something about it.
Me: Can you tell me exactly what is broken? It still works for me.
Client: The headline has the wrong font and the margins between the form elements are totally off!
Me: -.-*

#15 LennyLen   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3312

Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:27 AM

I do not agree with that story you linked to.

Did you even read it? The rest of your post suggest you didn't.

The guy who wrote it is a huge C fan ( it shows badly ) - his only complaint is the language syntax.


Did you miss where he complained about lack of useful debugging info, the problems with php.ini, the way PHP continues to run when it should halt due to errors, or.. actually the 95% if the article that was complaining about things other than syntax.

There were negative points in the article about C as well, and about other languages. There weren't many of course as it wasn't an article about the shortcomings of C or other languages, it was an article about the shortcomings of PHP.

Second off, there is nothing that can replace the usefulness of PhP for web site design, unless you like coding action script. ( HTML 5 is not up for debate, since there is no standards set, and most web browsers do NOT fully support it yet ) .


ASP, and more recently ASP.NET have always been quick any easy to use for me, as well as powerful.

Third - a lot of languages have dead communities - why is is necessary to have an active community to be able to code?


Where did that come from?

Forth - the language syntax is a lot like Python, however PhP is better adapted for web applications. The guy in the story hates interpreted languages because they do not have the same syntax as C.


Please point out how you came to that conclusion.

Fifth - I would love to see his explanation of why he wants everyone to code webpages in C .


I would love to see your explanation of how you came to that conclusion as well.

From everything you've posted, it looks like you spent around 30 seconds scanning through the article and made a conclusion based on 1% of the content.

I've "only" been creating my own web sites since 1995. Calling me inexperienced due to my choice in languages, is a bit childish, don't you think ?


I believe he's calling you inexperienced due to the way in which you completely failed to comprehend the article, as is evidenced by the post you wrote about it. That and the fact that you seem to think that PHP, ActionScript and HTML5 are the only web development options. There are several others (some of which are even mentioned by name in the article), so your apparent lack of knowledge of them can only be construed as inexperience.

And for the record, statements of a "I've been doing this since <insert date here>" format are meaningless. The fact that a person has been doing something for a long time in no way means they are any good at it. I think the first time I coded a web page was around 1992, and I consider myself to be a complete novice.

#16 XXChester   Members   -  Reputation: 811

Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:55 AM

Writing pure HTML is a nightmare yes, if you are serious about getting into web development and you don't want to learn any of the other suggestions, at a minimum I would strongly suggest learning CSS. CSS makes web design 10x easier than just pure html.

Remember to mark someones post as helpful if you found it so.

http://www.BrandonMcCulligh.ca


#17 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:33 AM


Based on this post it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about regarding web development and you should not be recommending things to other inexperienced web developers.

I've "only" been creating my own web sites since 1995. Calling me inexperienced due to my choice in languages, is a bit childish, don't you think ?


I was prepared to tear your original post apart line by line, but Lenny took care of that in a much more friendly way than I probably would have. There is one line I will call out that really highlights your ignorance regarding web development however.

Second off, there is nothing that can replace the usefulness of PhP for web site design, unless you like coding action script. ( HTML 5 is not up for debate, since there is no standards set, and most web browsers do NOT fully support it yet ) .


"PhP" is not a tool for web site design and it's equivalent is not action script or HTML5. You're comparing web server technologies with client side technologies which is entirely wrong. How you've managed to create your own website since 1995 and not understand the difference between server side and client side technologies is beyond me. You're also wrong on the HTML5 front. Many modern website developers are using it quite successfully for enhancing website experiences for users on the latest browsers, while also providing a graceful failure for browsers that do not support it.

#18 Chad Smith   Members   -  Reputation: 1041

Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:45 PM

... ( HTML 5 is not up for debate, since there is no standards set, and most web browsers do NOT fully support it yet ) . ...


Then why does it seem I see more and more professionals using HTML 5 then and like someone stated above me, providing a graceful failure for browsers that do not support it?

#19 LennyLen   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3312

Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:46 PM

but Lenny took care of that in a much more friendly way than I probably would have


And I was worried that I came across far more harshly than I intended.

#20 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5770

Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:23 PM


... ( HTML 5 is not up for debate, since there is no standards set, and most web browsers do NOT fully support it yet ) . ...


Then why does it seem I see more and more professionals using HTML 5 then and like someone stated above me, providing a graceful failure for browsers that do not support it?


The main reasons for using HTML5 these days really can be summarized as: CSS3 and Media queries, it makes it dead simple to make websites that scale perfectly across devices (Which is quite important now that mobiles and tablets make up such a large portion of the web traffic), the new tags are kinda ... meh(The fancy ones don't work in the older versions of IE so they're pretty much useless). the ones i think have the most value are the article, nav and section(and header and footer inside body) tags as they clarify what type of content you're displaying which should make it easier for various tools(screen readers for example), searchengines, etc to analyze and index the content of your website.
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!




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