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lets get rid of this garbage reputation system?


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#21 rip-off   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8112

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:28 AM

It is counting "daily visits as a signed in user", rather than the actual act of entering your username and password.

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#22 SiCrane   Moderators   -  Reputation: 9545

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:29 AM

You might get the message for logging in multiple times without actually getting the points. If you get a cached version of a page that has one of the log in point notifications you'll get the notification again even if you don't get the points for logging in again.

#23 MarkS   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 882

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:31 AM

You might get the message for logging in multiple times without actually getting the points. If you get a cached version of a page that has one of the log in point notifications you'll get the notification again even if you don't get the points for logging in again.


No, when I noticed this, I saw a jump in points.

#24 samoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4683

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:53 AM

Reputation is such an everlasting source of anger... I don't understand why, but alas. Maybe requiring everyone to click an explicit "show reputation" box in the profile (and maybe offer that as an option when registering) could help.

If you don't click that checkbox, you'll not see your reputation, nor anyone else's, nor votes on posts.

This will effectively "remove" the reputation system, unless you explicitly state that you want to see it. But then again, if you do, you have no right to complain about it.

#25 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 9853

Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:10 AM

This will effectively "remove" the reputation system, unless you explicitly state that you want to see it.

At which point the reputation system will only be used by moderators and trolls, and we'll lose whatever value we derive from it.

Opt-out isn't really a workable option. It's all or nothing.

Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#26 BCullis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1813

Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:30 PM

Reputation is such an everlasting source of anger... I don't understand why, but alas.


In most online arenas, I would agree with you. This community, however, manages to do an excellent job of self-moderation and generally stays on a helpful, positive track. I don't regularly see lots of downvoting, and quite often see negative votes get wiped out by counter-dissenters. There are a lot of active people here with solid reputation scores, and it provides a lot of positive incentive to help in areas you're actually helpful in. By and large, the rep system here does specifically what it was designed to do: encourage helpful posts, and discourage unhelpful posts. It's not really a popularity thing (which was a brilliant choice to keep rep votes out of off-topic areas like the lounge) unless you consider that it's "popular" to provide correct, helpful information.
More often than not, when I see a negative score that stays negative, the post content was genuinely false, misleading, or otherwise damaging to the learning potential of the thread. Working as intended.
Those people that really get angry over it either leave, get banned, or change their approach to fit more in line with the spirit of the forum.
Hazard Pay :: FPS/RTS in SharpDX
DeviantArt :: Because right-brain needs love too

#27 MarkS   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 882

Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:38 PM

I like the reputation system. I shows me which members are the most helpful and allows me to gauge how helpful I am. It also allows me to quickly tell if the inflammatory post in my thread is due to an honest disagreement, or the result of a troll. Trolls typically have very low and/or negative reputation points, as was seen with the original poster of this thread.

My only issue is with members being given points just for logging in. It doesn't make sense (to me at least).

Edited by MarkS, 12 December 2012 - 02:39 PM.


#28 Michael Tanczos   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 5182

Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

My only issue is with members being given points just for logging in. It doesn't make sense (to me at least).


If you manage to accumulate a significant number of points from logging in that is an indicator that you at least visit the site often, which for us does say something about you as a member of the community even if you choose to lurk. Given that upvoting a post also gives a point, one point per day from logging in isn't much. But you can definitely see right now that the easiest path to picking up lots of rep is to give helpful advice. 6-7 votes on one post could net you 18+ reputation.

When we upgrade to the newest version of our site software we're going to be relaunching and promoting community article building. The rep you can get from that will be even more significant... up to 150 points per article. (+100 points if you manage to get 5 "Peer Reviewed" votes from those with peer reviewing capabilities) We will take from the pool of members with some significant number of "Author" points and grant them that capability along with all of the moderators.

#29 Michael Tanczos   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 5182

Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

You might get the message for logging in multiple times without actually getting the points. If you get a cached version of a page that has one of the log in point notifications you'll get the notification again even if you don't get the points for logging in again.


I can confirm this is correct. I need to find a way to purge the cached page if you get a rep notification. Right now I believe the page you get the notification on is cached for about 40 seconds.. so if you go back to it quick enough you get the notification again.

#30 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8506

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:45 PM

I got tons of points for logging in. The browser logs me in and out lots without me doing anything. Especially if I leave and come back. I might close a thread, and then come back in a new tab with my most visited site thing on the chrome blank tab and it will say I relogged, even though I never really did. *shrug*

I think the "logged in" label is a bit misleading, since most of us use cookies to automatically stay logged in. Perhaps a better name would be "daily visit" or something.

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#31 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17937

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

I think the "logged in" label is a bit misleading, since most of us use cookies to automatically stay logged in. Perhaps a better name would be "daily visit" or something.

That's a fair point, perhaps it would be better labelled something like "daily visit".

My only issue is with members being given points just for logging in. It doesn't make sense (to me at least).

I originally thought this as well when we introduced the new system, but I've since come around to actually liking the daily 1up.

One of the complaints we sometimes get about the reputation system -- far more with the old system than the current one, but it's still mentioned occasionally -- is that a member can sometimes lose a lot of points just by asking a particularly stupid question, unintentionally giving bad advice, or even simply by posting a bad joke, and unfortunately it can sometimes seem like it's impossible to recover those lost points. It can also be very discouraging to a beginner to receive even a single down-vote on their first day if someone doesn't like the question they post, or similar.

In this way, I think giving users +1 for each day they visit the site provides a good natural balancing factor so that reputation can always be slowly recovered over time. By simply continuing to visit and participate you can gradually recover from a large loss of reputation, or pretty quickly recover from one or two errant down-votes.

...and as the example of glhf shows, this certainly doesn't stop the effect of consistent down-voting on a reputation; in my opinion this actually makes a particularly low reputation a better indicator of bad behaviour or spreading misinformation than it was with previous systems, because you know the user (assuming they're reasonably regular) hasn't simply made some mistake and had their reputation butchered years ago -- to get a really low reputation they must be consistently down-voted to counter-act the daily +1.


As a user said in another topic -- it's a single virtual "point" in an online reputation system -- 1 point doesn't cost us anything, and if it encourages more frequent visiting (which will hopefully lead to more posting) and keeps a few people happy it's probably a good thing.

#32 MarkS   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 882

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:24 PM

...snip...


Very good points. I wasn't looking at it that way. That does make some sense.

#33 TheChubu   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4070

Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:12 PM

I had the "bad joke" thing happen to me once :D

Anyway, I like the reputation system. Its good that upvoting someone else's post gives you a point too since it encourages the idea of (indirectly) saying "Hey! This is good info, good work!" to other users, even if you don't post anything in the thread you can "compensate" someone for writing something interesting.

"I AM ZE EMPRAH OPENGL 3.3 THE CORE, I DEMAND FROM THEE ZE SHADERZ AND MATRIXEZ"

 

My journals: dustArtemis ECS framework and Making a Terrain Generator


#34 Wilhelm van Huyssteen   Members   -  Reputation: 953

Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:17 AM

I personally dislike the rep system compared to the old one. I understand thats its nice to award forum participation but imo when im reading the forum the rep doesnt mean anything to me anymore. I used to ask alot of questions on these forums and I remember how nice it was to be able to tell if youre question is being answerd by an expert or by a person on my level who happen to know the answer. Not saying the non expert wasnt helpfull but when in doubt I knew whos opinion I should attach more weight to (I know even the expert can be wrong but as a beginner programmer you cant tell so you have to choose something as truth and experiment from there).

I realize that it was very hard to gain rep and only a small percentage of forum members got high rep but I feel thats a good thing for the reason stated above. I dont think that a casual hobby programmer needs a similar rep than some of the more serious indies/industry professionals on this forum. Its nice to encourage participation but imo its nicer to be able to gauge the experience of the person replying to your post. (As a disclaimer I never had a high rep on the old system)

#35 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17937

Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:00 AM

Its nice to encourage participation but imo its nicer to be able to gauge the experience of the person replying to your post.

To be fair, the reputations of experienced long term members still massively exceed those of the newer and less experienced.

With only one point per day for participation and 4 points per up-vote it's actually possible for the best quality responses to provide more of a rep boost than a whole year of daily visits - and you also have the votes on each individual post to help judge good vs bad advice.

#36 TheChubu   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4070

Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:23 AM

Its just a matter of timming. Be ready when a wild "Trying to learn to code with C++" thread appears! If you happen to be one of the first 5 or so people to explain why C++ is bad for beginners, you're golden :P

"I AM ZE EMPRAH OPENGL 3.3 THE CORE, I DEMAND FROM THEE ZE SHADERZ AND MATRIXEZ"

 

My journals: dustArtemis ECS framework and Making a Terrain Generator


#37 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8506

Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:26 AM

Its just a matter of timming. Be ready when a wild "Trying to learn to code with C++" thread appears! If you happen to be one of the first 5 or so people to explain why C++ is bad for beginners, you're golden Posted Image

I have to agree with this, those threads are reputation fountains. A well-crafted first answer can net you 10+ upvotes easily.

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#38 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7817

Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:30 AM

Reputation is such an everlasting source of anger...


Generally, any time anyone has expressed issues with the rep system it's been a case of there being something else going on behind it - a difficult user, or whatever. That's not always true, but it's been a useful rule of thumb recently - you see a complaint about the system and you can almost always guarantee that the person complaining has a record of showing all the subtlety of an anvil with "50 Tons" written on it in their interactions with others.

It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.





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