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So, windows 8?


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Poll: Opinion on Windows 8? (112 member(s) have cast votes)

Opinion on Windows 8?

  1. Like (47 votes [41.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.96%

  2. Dislike (65 votes [58.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.04%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#41 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8316

Posted 12 January 2013 - 10:54 AM

Windows 8 is tablet focused in that you can use it on a tablet without wanting to throw your computer into the wall.

Because having the same operating system and interface on two devices which by, nature, do not interact with the user in the same way, is logical.


The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


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#42 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:01 AM

Windows 8 is tablet focused in that you can use it on a tablet without wanting to throw your computer into the wall.

 

Because having the same operating system and interface on two devices which by, nature, do not interact with the user in the same way, is logical.

Why is it not logical to have a product that works for two use cases instead of two products that only work for one use case?



#43 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8316

Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:18 AM

Windows 8 is tablet focused in that you can use it on a tablet without wanting to throw your computer into the wall.

 

Because having the same operating system and interface on two devices which by, nature, do not interact with the user in the same way, is logical.

Why is it not logical to have a product that works for two use cases instead of two products that only work for one use case?

 

Because a product generally tries to solve one problem well and let other products solve other problems (which possibly don't even exist yet). The same reason your image editor doesn't help you process text, remaster audio samples, browse the internet or play games all at the same time.

 

Single responsibility principle?


Edited by Bacterius, 12 January 2013 - 11:20 AM.

The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#44 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:28 AM

Because a product generally tries to solve one problem well and let other products solve other problems (which possibly don't even exist yet). The same reason your image editor doesn't help you process text, remaster audio samples, browse the internet or play games all at the same time.

 

Single responsibility principle?

 

Operating systems by their nature are not single responsibility software. I agree that the metro interface should have been toggleable  but it really makes no difference in daily work on the computer. On my MBP without touch, I don't use metro. I use the desktop exclusively. On my surface, I only ever use the remote debugger on the desktop, everything else is metro. It does handle both sides well if you get over your bias and actually try it.



#45 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:32 AM

Because a product generally tries to solve one problem well and let other products solve other problems (which possibly don't even exist yet).

What OS does this anyway regardless of what input devices are being used? At least if you're looking at it as fine grained as you are. The problem OS's solve is simplifying users' computing.

 

Single responsibility principle?

That's not what the SRP talks about. If you were using it that way no program would ever do more than one thing. You would need separate programs to alter the font, format, and text of a text document. SRP is for modules of a product, not for products themselves. Computing would be an absolutely tedious experience if you followed SRP for products rather than modules of products.



#46 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8316

Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:41 AM

Because a product generally tries to solve one problem well and let other products solve other problems (which possibly don't even exist yet). The same reason your image editor doesn't help you process text, remaster audio samples, browse the internet or play games all at the same time.

 

Single responsibility principle?

 

Operating systems by their nature are not single responsibility software. I agree that the metro interface should have been toggleable  but it really makes no difference in daily work on the computer. On my MBP without touch, I don't use metro. I use the desktop exclusively. On my surface, I only ever use the remote debugger on the desktop, everything else is metro. It does handle both sides well if you get over your bias and actually try it.

 

The operating system itself isn't. But the operating system's interface is. You just mentioned you do not use metro on your MBP (which does not have a touch screen). So how does "metro" handle both sides well, since you are not using it for your non-touch computer? Regardless, why would you put an interface clearly designed for touch screens on hardware which does not have touch screens? It does not make any sense. It's like saying you're going to be browsing the internet using a wiimote. It is incoherent.

 

Besides, having two radically different desktop interfaces in a single operating system is just more software bloat, a better alternative would be to purchase the core OS separately, and then select the interface you want based on your needs. Have a touch-screen? Grab the "metro user interface". You use a desktop? Get the traditional interface. It makes so much more sense than just lumping everything together and have the user jump through hoops to disable (and not even completely remove) metro. Yes, it takes more effort to maintain, well, there's no free lunch, you can't maintain two radically different products by simply assuming they are, in fact, equivalent. Sorry.


The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#47 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:20 PM

Besides, having two radically different desktop interfaces in a single operating system is just more software bloat, a better alternative would be to purchase the core OS separately, and then select the interface you want based on your needs. Have a touch-screen? Grab the "metro user interface". You use a desktop? Get the traditional interface. It makes so much more sense than just lumping everything together and have the user jump through hoops to disable (and not even completely remove) metro. Yes, it takes more effort to maintain, well, there's no free lunch, you can't maintain two radically different products by simply assuming they are, in fact, equivalent. Sorry.

 

There aren't really hoops to jump through. Log in, click the desktop and you're pretty much back in Win 7 mode. Done. And maybe you haven't noticed, but there is a large increase in the number of laptops with touch available. There are systems being built to fully leverage the hybrid design of the OS.

 

HP Touch Laptops

Dell Touch Laptops

Sony Touch Laptops

Lenovo Touch Laptops



#48 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

Besides, having two radically different desktop interfaces in a single operating system is just more software bloat,

Yea... it's almost like having a terminal and desktop in a single operating system; that would be just silly.



#49 Nypyren   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4021

Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:22 AM

(deleted due to my incompetence at using the quote button)

Edited by Nypyren, 13 January 2013 - 03:24 AM.


#50 Nypyren   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4021

Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:23 AM

Besides, having two radically different desktop interfaces in a single operating system is just more software bloat, a better alternative would be to purchase the core OS separately, and then select the interface you want based on your needs. Have a touch-screen? Grab the "metro user interface". You use a desktop? Get the traditional interface. It makes so much more sense than just lumping everything together and have the user jump through hoops to disable (and not even completely remove) metro. Yes, it takes more effort to maintain, well, there's no free lunch, you can't maintain two radically different products by simply assuming they are, in fact, equivalent. Sorry.

First, you suggest that the user should pick how they want to configure the system.

Then, you suggest that the user should not have to configure the system.


Then you say that X is better than X.

Edited by Nypyren, 13 January 2013 - 03:25 AM.


#51 Madhed   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2710

Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:34 AM

Voted dislike.

First, I see no urgent need to upgrade from Windows 7 at the moment.

Second, as many have already said here and elsewhere, I just don't get the new desktop philosophy (if there is any). Cramming two completely different UI into one OS which I am forced to use if I don't write scripts seems silly. It would have been nice to give the user an option to select their default login UI (boot to desktop vs. boot to Metro).

I don't know if this is still true, but I have seen in reviews that some system settings are only accessible from metro, so I am really forced to go back and forth.

 

IMO they should have gone the iOS route and build separate UI for desktop and mobile, sharing just a common codebase.



#52 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2247

Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:05 PM

These days my computing is split between productivity work on win 7 (~50%), gaming on steam (~30%) and browsing/email/whatever on iPad/iPhone. I have no philosophical objection to win8, but haven't really seen a reason to upgrade.

 

From the people who have used windows 8, if I don't have a touch screen, are there any compelling benefits to updating from windows 7?

 
 
 

if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#53 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:23 PM

From the people who have used windows 8, if I don't have a touch screen, are there any compelling benefits to updating from windows 7?

 

Faster

Better Task Manager

Better Explorer

Better Multi-Monitor Support

Better Integrated Search

Includes Hyper-V in the Pro Version

Better File History

 

I'm sure there is more, but this is just what I've noticed in my use.



#54 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2247

Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:07 AM

 
Faster
Better Task Manager
Better Explorer
Better Multi-Monitor Support
Better Integrated Search
Includes Hyper-V in the Pro Version
Better File History
 
I'm sure there is more, but this is just what I've noticed in my use.


Good info, thanks. Almost none of the reviews I've read have mentioned any of that and instead focused on metro.
if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#55 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:26 AM

From the people who have used windows 8, if I don't have a touch screen, are there any compelling benefits to updating from windows 7?

 

Faster

Better Task Manager

Better Explorer

Better Multi-Monitor Support

Better Integrated Search

Includes Hyper-V in the Pro Version

Better File History

 

I'm sure there is more, but this is just what I've noticed in my use.

Elaborating on "faster" startup times are much better.

 

edit: Control panel options are a lot easier to get to if you don't know which part of the control panel they are under. I think in 7 it will only search for the different option windows, but in 8 I think you can search for individual settings. In general Windows key + search is now my preferred way of navigating most of windows whereas on 7 it was a nice alternative.

 

I find the ratio with which I use keyboard/mouse/touch screen to much more favor the keyboard for most tasks now. I use the touchscreen on my laptop more than I ever did with 7, but the amount I use the keyboard vs. the mouse has gone up a lot as well. I don't have enough experience with 8 on a system without touch to say a lot on that though. Might install it on my desktop this weekend to fiddle with WP8 apps.


Edited by way2lazy2care, 14 January 2013 - 07:37 AM.


#56 jHaskell   Members   -  Reputation: 977

Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

Windows 8 is a Tablet focused UI being forced upon desktop systems.

Metro's biggest seeling point is that it's touch friendly.  My desktop does not, and likely will never have a touchscreen.

 

I'll upgrade from Windows 7 when Microsoft releases an OS clearly designed for my computer.

Windows 8 is tablet focused in that you can use it on a tablet without wanting to throw your computer into the wall. It's not tablet focused in that things are more difficult on a desktop than they were before.

 

Relative to Windows 7, I absolutely consider Windows 8 more difficult to use.  Do I consider it more difficult to use in an absolute sense, of course not.  I do, however, consider Windows 8 a clear step backwards in terms of usability from the perspective of a desktop computer with a full keyboard and mouse.  All the various reasons why that is the case have been hashed out repeatedly across all the Internet for months now.



#57 pinebanana   Members   -  Reputation: 475

Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:04 AM

I honestly think I'll be sticking to OS X or Linux for a while before switching back to Windows.


anax - An open source C++ entity system


#58 ryan20fun   Members   -  Reputation: 681

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:17 AM

Ive just got Win8 last weekend, And i was completely lost at first, but i had about 700 reasons to learn how to use it.

And i would have to say that so far: im enjoying it.

 

So i voted: Like.


Never say Never, Because Never comes too soon. - ryan20fun

Disclaimer: Each post of mine is intended as an attempt of helping and/or bringing some meaningfull insight to the topic at hand. Due to my nature, my good intentions will not always be plainly visible. I apologise in advance and assure you I mean no harm and do not intend to insult anyone.

#59 mdwh   Members   -  Reputation: 841

Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:13 PM

All the various reasons why that is the case have been hashed out repeatedly across all the Internet for months now.

I've yet to hear an example of something with keyboard/mouse that is harder - do you have an example?

The only thing forced is the changed start bar[*], which works the same way with keyboard (hit Windows key, start typing) and mouse (click lower left, then select application icon). I admit it's odd they removed the visual icon to click on. But I am glad they seem to be making full use of Fitt's Law in Windows 8. Also remember that MS change the start bar in almost every single version of Windows, some people like some versions better than others. I hated the XP start bar the worst, and prefer 7/8 most of all - on XP I always switch back to the 2000 start bar (and in 8, you can get a tool which switches it back to the one in 7).

The more controversial thing is the new former-Metro UI, which I can see arguments for and against. But your existing software will work in the same way just as before, with the same UI, so it's not forced. And I think UIs and apps optimised for different devices (but sharing a common platform) is better than either a single UI for both, or completely different platforms. There'll always be demand for people to continue writing and supporting such software, and I think that will only change if the new former-Metro evolves to encompass the best of both UIs anway, if such a thing is ever desirable.

[*] Also renamed to start screen, which has led to the "They removed the start bar" myth, but renaming is just a matter of semantics.
 


http://erebusrpg.sourceforge.net/ - Erebus, Open Source RPG for Windows/Linux/Android
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#60 CryZe   Members   -  Reputation: 768

Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:36 AM

The poll would've been more interesting if there were 3 options: "I tried it and I like it", "I tried it and I don't like it", "I haven't tried it".

The thing is, Microsoft is marketing Windows 8 completely wrong. The thing is Microsoft wanted to create a mobile operating system, just like Android and iOS. They did that and called it Windows RT. Obviously they needed a new interface for a mobile operating system and it's pretty obvious that currently applications wouldn't run on it. So they needed to create the Modern UI and the Windows Store Apps.
They also developed the successor to Windows 7 at the same time. So they included all the features of Windows RT as a BONUS. There's no need to use it and all the features of Windows 7 are still in there. They just allow you to run these mobile apps additionally on your Desktop PC if you want to.

I've been using Windows 8 for quite some time now, and overall it is the better Windows 7. And for all those asking: Nope, I was not forced to use any Windows Store App ever at all. I've been using the Desktop the whole time and only need to use the new Start Screen. But what's so bad about it? The tiles? Come on, the desktop with its icons is nothing else... The only difference to the old start menu is that it's full screen. But why would I want it to be as small as it was before? I use it to open a program... I don't need to see the rest of the windows in the mean time. It's basically the desktop as a start menu. And the tiles are actually better than simple static icons, since they can show you additional information.

Edited by CryZe, 24 January 2013 - 09:38 AM.





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