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#41 MichaBen   Members   -  Reputation: 481

Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:18 AM

Out of interest when was the last time you installed Windows?

I have to agree that installing Windows is not something for beginners though. Recently I installed Windows 7 three times on two different machines. So that is twice on one PC on the same day, as after installing some weird error came up that even the helpdesk didn't know how to fix, so the advice was to just wipe the harddrive and install again. On the second machine installing went fine, until installing some additional software (ironically with Microsofts own installer) failed because it had no access to write to C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu. Right, Windows installer not having permission to add icons to the start menu, after a fresh install. Luckily there was a solution, involving either changing advanced user account control properties of a hidden folder (good luck for beginners) or entering a number of obscure command line commands (good luck for beginners). Installing Windows 8 luckily goes a lot faster, and except for the blue screen of death that showed every time you booted it up it worked perfectly. So in the end, out of four clean Windows installations, just one went correctly. And still some people claim Windows is easy....



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#42 Sik_the_hedgehog   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1747

Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:54 AM

There is no data tracking.

 

There is a feature in Ubuntu that allows you to search the internet from the Dash (the "desktop" home screen).  It send your search terms encrypted to a server run by Canonical, which can then send results from various sources back (encrypted) for display on the screen.  If you select one of those results, it can open a browser window displaying the results (using an in-the-clear connection).  If a MitM attacker is watching your data streams, they could conceptually figure out what you were searching for by scanning the HTTP query sent by the browser when results are selected.

 

If I recall correctly, the issue was that the search terms were to look for data in your own computer (not on-line), and that for some stupid reason Canonical thought it'd be a good idea to send those search terms to Amazon so it could show ads in the dash along with the search results. So the actual issue was letting a third-party get info that could be used to tell what stuff do you have in your own system.

 

The problem is not so much about whether it can be disabled or not (which if I recall correctly actually consists on uninstalling something, unless that changed after the reveal), the problem is that by still using Ubuntu you'd be telling Canonical that having such a feature installed and enabled by default is a good thing, even if you decide to remove it. Quite several users moved away to other distros just for this reason, even if they were fine with Ubuntu otherwise.

 

In the end no sure what came out of all this =/


Don't pay much attention to "the hedgehog" in my nick, it's just because "Sik" was already taken =/ By the way, Sik is pronounced like seek, not like sick.

#43 GMuser   Members   -  Reputation: 211

Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:18 AM

Out of interest when was the last time you installed Windows?

I have to agree that installing Windows is not something for beginners though. Recently I installed Windows 7 three times on two different machines. So that is twice on one PC on the same day, as after installing some weird error came up that even the helpdesk didn't know how to fix, so the advice was to just wipe the harddrive and install again. On the second machine installing went fine, until installing some additional software (ironically with Microsofts own installer) failed because it had no access to write to C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu. Right, Windows installer not having permission to add icons to the start menu, after a fresh install. Luckily there was a solution, involving either changing advanced user account control properties of a hidden folder (good luck for beginners) or entering a number of obscure command line commands (good luck for beginners). Installing Windows 8 luckily goes a lot faster, and except for the blue screen of death that showed every time you booted it up it worked perfectly. So in the end, out of four clean Windows installations, just one went correctly. And still some people claim Windows is easy....

The real question is if you tried to install other os's on the problematic machines? 



#44 samoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4783

Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:12 AM

If I recall correctly, the issue was that the search terms were to look for data in your own computer (not on-line), and that for some stupid reason Canonical thought it'd be a good idea to send those search terms to Amazon so it could show ads in the dash along with the search results. So the actual issue was letting a third-party get info that could be used to tell what stuff do you have in your own system.

That's much closer to the true story. Which would probably not cause similar waves if an operating system made by Microsoft or Apple did the same -- there's a difference whether you make no secret out of selling your customers or whether you pretend that you're the Freedom Fighter From the Land of the Righteous, and you still do the same. Canonical, once upon a time, made a promise that Ubuntu was free and would remain free forever. They broke that promise.

 

Which, just like the introduction of Unity, is a shame. Until then, Ubuntu was the best working Linux distro.



#45 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 19560

Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:42 AM

There is a feature in Ubuntu that allows you to search the internet from the Dash (the "desktop" home screen).  It send your search terms encrypted to a server run by Canonical, which can then send results from various sources back (encrypted) for display on the screen.  If you select one of those results, it can open a browser window displaying the results (using an in-the-clear connection)...

 

...It's simply a differentiating feature in Ubuntu you don't have in Mac OS or Microsoft Windows (yet), and you can disable it or remove it if you don't want it.  It's on by default because most consumers seem to want it, out of the box.

 

I think Windows 7 added something similar (called Federated Search Connectors [picture]). It's not used too much, and kindly clunky, partly because it doesn't have a "casual user" GUI (you have to write a script to add a new search engine). But you can choose who to send your search to, and who returns the results. For example, eBay or Amazon or Google or Wikipedia or whoever. In a previous install of Windows 7, I had one for Google, one for Amazon, and one for GameDev.net - but because it wasn't very polished or refined yet, and not one-click away, I didn't use it much and didn't bother re-adding it when I reinstalled Windows 7 a year or two ago.

 

Btw, I only reinstalled it as motivation for cleaning and organizing my files, not because the install was buggy or really needed a reinstall. And was a fairly simple (but not casual-user friendly) process, though it did take most the day (3-5 hours in a "click and walk away" kind of way) because I was messing around with hard drive partitions and reformatted the drive (which took some time). 


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#46 Karsten_   Members   -  Reputation: 1604

Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

As Google Android has proven, users are quite happy to run Linux. It just needs to be marketed upon them (sigh...).

I migrated 100% to UNIX once Microsoft added (albeit easily crackable) DRM to their operating system and frankly, never looked back and though UNIX / Linux is not a great choice for playing games, it is perfect for making them.

One hint though, is get used to the command-line (and a simple tiling window manager) so you can survive Linux desktop environments since they are all a complete failure.

Edited by Karsten_, 05 January 2013 - 11:54 AM.

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#47 Bregma   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5133

Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:42 PM

If I recall correctly, the issue was that the search terms were to look for data in your own computer (not on-line), and that for some stupid reason Canonical thought it'd be a good idea to send those search terms to Amazon so it could show ads in the dash along with the search results. So the actual issue was letting a third-party get info that could be used to tell what stuff do you have in your own system.

That's much closer to the true story. Which would probably not cause similar waves if an operating system made by Microsoft or Apple did the same -- there's a difference whether you make no secret out of selling your customers or whether you pretend that you're the Freedom Fighter From the Land of the Righteous, and you still do the same. Canonical, once upon a time, made a promise that Ubuntu was free and would remain free forever. They broke that promise.

It's not closer to the true story, unless you really think hearsay from the Internet rumour mill is in fact more reliable than words from the keyboard of one of the developers.

 

As I pointed out, when you search for something using the search bar of the Dash, the search terms are sent to Canonical, who maintains a database of search terms and results from multiple sources (just like Google does, weird).  It returns those results to you.  If it does not have results in its database, it can search external entities, like Amazon, to try and satisfy those results.  It does not send any information to Amazon (or whomever) other than the search terms, and those terms have all identifying information stripped other than any Canonical key necessary to use the remote API.  Canonical does not track individuals, except the IP information required for a round-trip HTML query.  As I said, the only security hole is in the case of a man-in-the-middle attack viewing any subsequent browser session if the user selects to go online to view the results.

 

The feature is disabled with a single click in an interactive control panel.  It has been since the official release of the software.  Notification that this is happening is on the Dash home screen, so it should be no surprise that you're using the software for what it advertises it does.

 

I fail to see how providing increased, but optional, functionality is in any way impinging on someones freedom.  There is nothing in the search that limits any known freedom.  The source is free (GPLv3).  Anyone is free to study, modify, or remove the search, and without compromising other functionality.  Can you describe how exactly the promise that Ubuntu will remain free has been broken?

 

Which, just like the introduction of Unity, is a shame. Until then, Ubuntu was the best working Linux distro.

Not particularly insightful or constructive. 


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#48 Vilem Otte   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1423

Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:44 PM

One hint though, is get used to the command-line (and a simple tiling window manager) so you can survive Linux desktop environments since they are all a complete failure.

 

Are they? I mean like new KDE is quite usable, Maybe you need to tweak it a bit, but still very usable...


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#49 Karsten_   Members   -  Reputation: 1604

Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:05 PM

Are they? I mean like new KDE is quite usable, Maybe you need to tweak it a bit, but still very usable...
Try comparing KDE 3.5 with 4.x and you will see the difference. KDE 4 is muddling and gimmicky.

Interestingly KDE 3.5 and Gnome used to be head to head in popularity before KDE 4 came along, it is only now that Gnome has run into serious issues that KDE is becoming popular again because it is the best of an extremely bad bunch.

Even Xfce is starting to have a large share even though it was never even developed to be a full weight desktop environment. This shows that there has certainly been a failure in the Linux desktop somewhere and it is all because of this stupid tablet PC craze, where everything looks like it should be on a touch screen. I haven't even seen a touch screen device that runs Gnome 3 or Unity lol.

Even as a Linux / UNIX evangelist, I will admit that the most efficient desktop I have known is that provided with Windows 2000.

Edited by Karsten_, 05 January 2013 - 02:13 PM.

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#50 dmreichard   Members   -  Reputation: 384

Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:22 PM

I run Ubuntu Server on my home server, ArchLinux on my laptop, Windows 7 on my desktop PC and XP on my wife's netbook. Life is good. happy.png



#51 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:44 PM

How cute. Did I said that there were no graphical network managers? That I was forced by the evil Linus Torvalds to use the console? No. There are quite a few, tried 2 or 3 that I found on Synaptic and didn't found one that I liked so I did all the work on my own.

 

As I said, you could grab a Gnome (or KDE, or Unity, or whatever Mint uses) desktop environment and have all the graphical utilities you'd want, I simply choose not to and travel the rough path to see if I could learn something.

 

But bash the OS for my personal choices! I sometimes use the console on Windows too, must be a pretty archaic OS too right? Ooooh, spooky cmd!

 

You misunderstand. I'm not bashing Linux, I'm bashing your personal choices. 



#52 DigitalSavior   Members   -  Reputation: 189

Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:46 AM

Out of interest when was the last time you installed Windows?

I have to agree that installing Windows is not something for beginners though. Recently I installed Windows 7 three times on two different machines. So that is twice on one PC on the same day, as after installing some weird error came up that even the helpdesk didn't know how to fix, so the advice was to just wipe the harddrive and install again. On the second machine installing went fine, until installing some additional software (ironically with Microsofts own installer) failed because it had no access to write to C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu. Right, Windows installer not having permission to add icons to the start menu, after a fresh install. Luckily there was a solution, involving either changing advanced user account control properties of a hidden folder (good luck for beginners) or entering a number of obscure command line commands (good luck for beginners). Installing Windows 8 luckily goes a lot faster, and except for the blue screen of death that showed every time you booted it up it worked perfectly. So in the end, out of four clean Windows installations, just one went correctly. And still some people claim Windows is easy....

 

I've installed Windows Vista, 7 and 8 multiple times over the past year on computers and VMs.  Not one problem aside from getting the correct ethernet driver from a vendor's site.



#53 shadowomf   Members   -  Reputation: 315

Posted 06 January 2013 - 03:36 AM

I think you can use any other Server OS as well and it will not crash anyways. I run a root server for years now with linux installed. We never had a crash, only scheduled maintenance. So Linux is not either a crashing OS.
Oh no, sorry I wasn't saying Linux does crash. I was just referring to a previous post where somebody claimed Windows as a Server sucks because it does crash regulary.
I know Linux can run years 24/7, as many other server OS, that's what they are made for.

1) Starts and runs slower than Mint.
Same Hardware? Else the comparison is pretty pointless.

4) Insists on being rebooted after every damn update (a problem that gets a bit worse since i sometimes only boot Windows at work once or twice per week and thus usually have a bunch of important updates waiting for me)
What makes people do that. I know many that only put their device in suspended mode, claiming that it takes too long to boot.
My suggestions:
  • Don't install a bunch off crap that you aren't even using. Especially things that start with Windows, add tray icons, uneccessary services, desktop widgets or toolbars...
  • Get yourself a SSD!

Edited by shadowomf, 06 January 2013 - 03:38 AM.


#54 Chad Smith   Members   -  Reputation: 1134

Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:59 AM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="JinixVomitorium" data-cid="5017534" data-time="1357339098"><p>
Linux is just about the best OS out there. It will run many MS programs through WINE, and if it wont run, there are several substitute softwares. The best Linux distros ive used sofar are... ubunt(before version 10.10) , Linux MINT, Crunchbang. Every since i switched to linux back in 205ish... i've found it very difficult to chang back to windows. and well... Mac OS is for losers.</p></blockquote>

I just believe this post screams fanboy. While a topic like this will have to do about opinion so a little fanboy will come out. Though yours IMO just screams it.

1: your main argument for making it better is that it can run windows programs through wine? Don't see how it makes it a better OS.

2: your ending of Mac OSX is for losers screams it even more and makes your points null.

Their are pros and cons for every OS. Their are something's I feel OSX does better than both Linux and Windows. At the same time Linux has some things that I tend to like more than the other OS's. Windows also does stuff well (obvious with how popular it is). Saying an OS is for losers screams fanboy and IMO makes any point you have null.

#55 Tribad   Members   -  Reputation: 855

Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:34 AM

My suggestions:

  • Don't install a bunch off crap that you aren't even using. Especially things that start with Windows, add tray icons, uneccessary services, desktop widgets or toolbars...
  • Get yourself a SSD!
 

For not installing a bunch off crap like you name it you need more insight into the system and what is needed and what not. The tray thingi is another point that needs more knowledge than many W-users do not have.
I am on your side to say that W is easy to install as long as everything works fine, specially that all devices drivers are working, the disk and network drivers at the first.
If you need a network driver first and you have no second machine to download and prepare the installation you are lost. Had that with a WinXP installation and a 3com 1GB Fibre interface that is not supported out of the box, and I do not expected it.

Why should I use a SSD? To startup faster? And to shutdown the machine completely?

I think it is a good thing anyways to shutdown a workstation and poweroff. My household gets cut off at the end of the day except the fridge. It saves me a lot of money along the year.

#56 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6110

Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:36 AM

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shadowomf" data-cid="5018116"><p><br /></p><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tribad" data-cid="5017715"><p>I think you can use any other Server OS as well and it will not crash anyways. I run a root server for years now with linux installed. We never had a crash, only scheduled maintenance. So Linux is not either a crashing OS.</p></blockquote>Oh no, sorry I wasn't saying Linux does crash. I was just referring to a previous post where somebody claimed Windows as a Server sucks because it does crash regulary.<br />I know Linux can run years 24/7, as many other server OS, that's what they are made for.<br /><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SimonForsman" data-cid="5017722"><p>1) Starts and runs slower than Mint.</p></blockquote>Same Hardware? Else the comparison is pretty pointless.<br /><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SimonForsman" data-cid="5017722"><p>4) Insists on being rebooted after every damn update (a problem that gets a bit worse since i sometimes only boot Windows at work once or twice per week and thus usually have a bunch of important updates waiting for me)</p></blockquote>What makes people do that. I know many that only put their device in suspended mode, claiming that it takes too long to boot.<br />My suggestions:<ul class="bbc"><li>Don't install a bunch off crap that you aren't even using. Especially things that start with Windows, add tray icons, uneccessary services, desktop widgets or toolbars...</li><li>Get yourself a SSD!</li></ul> <br /><p><br /></p></blockquote><br />
Its my work machine, same hardware, no crap installed, just the essentials i need to actually do my work (The Linux system has far more software and services installed),
an SSD is pretty much out of the question since both operating systems run more than fast enough and i need the extra space (its a laptop, if i swap to a SSD i'll have to put most of my data on a external USB or network drive instead which would be a royal pain in the ass),
also: i just said that Windows was slower than Mint, not that it was too slow to be used.

The reason i only boot Windows once or twice per week is because Mint is the more productive enviroment for me(I could probably learn how to use powershell, install a working desktop enviroment, the default one in Win7 is lacking too many basic usability features like window grouping, multiple desktops, etc (if it does have them i have no idea how to enable them), etc, for Windows aswell but i just don't see the point when Mint has what i want either out of the box or a few commands away and i've been using Linux for so long that i feel more comfortable using it, heck i don't even know where to start looking to get the functionality i want in Windows).

Edited by SimonForsman, 06 January 2013 - 10:37 AM.

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#57 samoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4783

Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:40 AM

Why should I use a SSD? To startup faster?

 

Not really. A SSD makes the entire system faster (and cooler, and more quiet), not just when booting. It's one of the best things to invest your money in, making a much bigger overall difference than e.g. having the most expensive CPU and the biggest bad-ass graphics card.

 

Anything that needs to touch the disk in a not strictly linear fashion will run a hundred times faster with a SSD due to almost non-existing access time. Which includes every compiler, everything program with a lot of DLLs, and all programs with a lot of plugins (so, every browser, office program, image manipulation program, etc.).

 

The buffer cache helps, certainly. But only to some extent, and only after the first run. SSD helps always, consistenly.



#58 Katie   Members   -  Reputation: 1331

Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:08 PM

It's almost all I use. At home I have a headerless linux server, a linux laptop to work on. I rent space on a linux server in a hosting centre for backing everything up to. At work my desktop is a linux system and the network is all Linux - my stuff runs on some tens of thousands of the servers in various places. I'd hate to be looking after that many machines running anything else.

 

I have a Mac Air for carrying around, but generally that's just used to SSH to a proper computer.



#59 SymLinked   Members   -  Reputation: 866

Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:31 PM

good luck, installing Windows from scratch is a pain and not for beginners
I'm sorry but your credability went out the window (no pun intended) with this one. I've seen you here for ages so you're definatly not a troll, but your statement that Windows is difficult to install is as stupid as claiming Linux is unstable. Wow..

It's a choice, like driving a Toyota vs. a Ford vs. an Opel. Some people prefer one, some prefer the other.
Except there's not a huuuuge difference between those (or most) cars. Fanboy much? :)
The difference between Linux and Windows isn't exactly small.

Edited by SymLinked, 06 January 2013 - 06:31 PM.


#60 Sik_the_hedgehog   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1747

Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:05 PM

Not really. A SSD makes the entire system faster (and cooler, and more quiet), not just when booting. It's one of the best things to invest your money in, making a much bigger overall difference than e.g. having the most expensive CPU and the biggest bad-ass graphics card.

 

Also makes the swap page unusable (try to use it on a SSD and watch how quickly it dies due to wear off), so you better add more RAM to make up for it if you were using swap beforehand (wouldn't be such an issue if it wasn't because of several programs trying to use up as much memory as possible - yes, including many of the most popular programs). Of course if swap was disabled don't bother with it since it was already running OK without it.

 

Also may want to disable disk cache in browsers for a similar reason, although the situation there isn't anywhere even remotely as bad, so you can live with it really. As a general rule, you want to avoid writes to the SSD as much as possible, both due to wear off and because they're horribly slow (even slower than on a hard disk - SSDs are faster at reading).

 

Anything that needs to touch the disk in a not strictly linear fashion will run a hundred times faster with a SSD due to almost non-existing access time. Which includes every compiler, everything program with a lot of DLLs, and all programs with a lot of plugins (so, every browser, office program, image manipulation program, etc.).

 

Every program ever, really, thanks to filesystem fragmentation. Opening a file seems to be the biggest offender in such operations anyway.


Don't pay much attention to "the hedgehog" in my nick, it's just because "Sik" was already taken =/ By the way, Sik is pronounced like seek, not like sick.




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