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Who uses linux?


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#61 Tribad   Members   -  Reputation: 452

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:02 AM

After booting my W7 machine the all-day applications from the task bar start instantly.<br />So no need for a SSD<br />My HDs, in the workstation and in the server, that has 8 of them, are in quiet mode and thus not hearing them at all.<br />The temperature of the discs are never above 30C.<br /><br />Yes. SSD are fast, quiet, cool?<br /><br />And you are starting to introduce special hardware at a point where the discussion is about OS.

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#62 kunos   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1776

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:29 AM

what's missing in Linux at this point is a killer application, a tangible reason for users to switch.

At the moment, there is none, unless you want to believe your geeky nerdy friend that keeps telling you "Windoz crashez all the timez dude". Some will surrender to the hype, get the thing installed and then, even if things go smoothly, what you do? What did you gain? You'll have to relearn the OS for what? Until the desktop experience is on par with Windows (which, imo, is not) and there is no real advantage to move over, people will rightly stay where they are.

 

Release Half Life 3 as a Linux-only killer app, and you'll start seeing a movement... until then, it's all useless geeky nerdy hype.


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#63 Tribad   Members   -  Reputation: 452

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:35 AM

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-cid="5018489" data-author="kunos"><p>what's missing in Linux at this point is a killer application, a tangible reason for users to switch.<br /><br />...&nbsp;<br /><br />Release Half Life 3 as a Linux-only killer app, and you'll start seeing a movement... until then, it's all useless geeky nerdy hype.</p></blockquote>Yes

#64 Sik_the_hedgehog   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1411

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:25 AM

Release Half Life 3 as a Linux-only killer app, and you'll start seeing a movement... until then, it's all useless geeky nerdy hype.

 

Then what you'll get isn't a killer app, it's a flop =/ You don't need just a killer app, you need to convince users that the platform will bring many things like said killer app or they won't bother switching (why will they switch if they will be stuck with just one thing?). They need something that will look to be it will be better than what they already have.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if HL3 was a Steambox exclusive, though...


Don't pay much attention to "the hedgehog" in my nick, it's just because "Sik" was already taken =/ By the way, Sik is pronounced like seek, not like sick.

#65 Olof Hedman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2227

Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:53 AM

As a general rule, you want to avoid writes to the SSD as much as possible, both due to wear off and because they're horribly slow (even slower than on a hard disk - SSDs are faster at reading

 

I think you should check out SSDs again, because I think your facts are slightly outdated.

Not only are they quite cheap, but most of them has pretty much the same write speed as read speed nowadays.

SSD is without question the most cost efficient upgrade you can give your computer today, if you don't have it already.

Makes it scary quick :)



#66 Sik_the_hedgehog   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1411

Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:05 AM

As far as I know they start fast since all the blocks are blank but once it starts running out of blank blocks and it needs to start erasing making them slower. Again, initially it's fast since blocks are pretty much new, but over time it will start slowing down. Some drives can erase blocks while it isn't writing to reduce slow down when it actually needs to write (and may rearrange blocks as needed), but if you're hammering it with writes constantly it isn't going to work very well. Not really a problem for normal file accesses, more of a problem when using the drive as an extension of RAM...

 

The wearing issue still exists. Remember, the problem with swap pages is that they're bound to write very often to the drive, and overwriting the old data, not appending. So if you go with a SSD either make sure you can run without a swap page or get a hard disk to run the swap page there (old small hard disks seem like they could be useful for this purpose).


Edited by Sik_the_hedgehog, 07 January 2013 - 05:06 AM.

Don't pay much attention to "the hedgehog" in my nick, it's just because "Sik" was already taken =/ By the way, Sik is pronounced like seek, not like sick.

#67 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7038

Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:12 AM

The wearing issue still exists. Remember, the problem with swap pages is that they're bound to write very often to the drive, and overwriting the old data, not appending. So if you go with a SSD either make sure you can run without a swap page or get a hard disk to run the swap page there (old small hard disks seem like they could be useful for this purpose).

Or, you know, get some more RAM so you don't need to hit the disk so much.


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#68 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 5720

Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:36 AM

The wearing issue still exists. Remember, the problem with swap pages is that they're bound to write very often to the drive, and overwriting the old data, not appending. So if you go with a SSD either make sure you can run without a swap page or get a hard disk to run the swap page there (old small hard disks seem like they could be useful for this purpose).

For the record I've been running an SSD as my primary drive since mid-2009 (256Gig OCZ Vertex series), with the swap drive pointed at it and having installed windows a couple of times over this period (due to system upgrades) and the drive still functions just perfectly.

Nor does it suffer from slow down issues or other related problems which plagued earlier drives - starting from about 2009 onwards SSD drive controller tech really did improve quite significantly to the point where on some drivers you would have to be writing gigs for data EVERY day before the drive would fail after about 5 years.

#69 mdwh   Members   -  Reputation: 743

Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:51 AM

It's unclear what the OP is asking - yes indeed, the fact that Linux has little commercial support, and there are few computers sold with Linux, means it struggles to increase its market share. Most people buy computers as complete systems, and my impression is that marketing and support from "big name brands", as well as media coverage, are key to getting anywhere.

But saying "Then who cares to switch to Linux?" seems unrelated - if someone is considering switching, why should it matter what it comes on? You can buy machines without an OS, and anyone on a forum for game development I would hope is capable of installing their own OS.

The last bit is just plain wrong (OpenOffice), and seems a flawed argument anyway, since not everyone needs to run Office.

Personally I have Ubuntu installed dual-boot on my Clevo, though Windows is still my main preferred OS I use most the time - I think Ubuntu is fine, just I still prefer Windows overall. I only have Windows on my Samsung ultra-portable. I find it odd the way that arguments end up so polarised between "Windows is always crashing" and "Linux is unusable" when in practice neither are even remotely true imo (I've never had Windows 7 crash, even graphics driver crashes fail to take it out, Ubuntu failed to boot after an update however; even if overall Linux is more stable than Windows, the difference must be so tiny to be unnoticeable for users, as both are extremely stable; Ubuntu I would say is easy enough for an average user). Whilst I prefer Windows, the differences are slight and a matter of preference, and both are really good OSs.

@Bregma I've installed the retail version of Windows 7 (which wasn't customised to any particular version), and found it easy and straightforward, just as much as Ubuntu. The Windows 8 RTM seemed fine too. Hours to format the drives? Something seems seriously wrong there. As for rebooting, Ubuntu has to reboot after updates too, which it seems to do more often than Windows.

@MichaBen "I have to agree that installing Windows is not something for beginners though."

Is Linux? Or any OS?

@Karsten_: "As Google Android has proven, users are quite happy to run Linux. It just needs to be marketed upon them (sigh...)."

I agree that more people could run GNU/Linux if there was better marketing support. Though I disagree that Android is proof of this for Linux - although Android uses the Linux kernel, it is not the same OS as GNU/Linux - it's just that people tend to refer "GNU/Linux" as "Linux" (much to RMS's dislike).

@Sik_the_hedgehog "Also makes the swap page unusable (try to use it on a SSD and watch how quickly it dies due to wear off), so you better add more RAM to make up for it if you were using swap beforehand [snip]"

Do you have a reference for these claims that isn't years old? My reading on the subject suggests that this is a thing of the past. Also see http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2009/05/05/support-and-q-a-for-solid-state-drives-and.aspx , "Should the pagefile be placed on SSDs?" Plus RAM is cheap these days...

Edited by mdwh, 07 January 2013 - 08:53 AM.

https://freecode.com/projects/erebus - Erebus, Open Source RPG for Windows/Linux/Android/Symbian
https://freecode.com/projects/conquests - Conquests, Open Source Civ-like Game for Windows/Linux

#70 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5475

Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

I agree that more people could run GNU/Linux if there was better marketing support. Though I disagree that Android is proof of this for Linux - although Android uses the Linux kernel, it is not the same OS as GNU/Linux - it's just that people tend to refer "GNU/Linux" as "Linux" (much to RMS's dislike).

 

Allthough GNU/Linux isn't really an OS either, the LSB compliant distros could possibly be grouped together as an OS family(since they are binary compatible) but saying that a non LSB GNU/Linux distro is the same OS as for example Redhat or Ubuntu is quite misleading (Ubuntu for example is closer to being 100% binary compatible with Windows95(through wine) than it is to being 100% binary compatible with a some non-LSB distributions or Android)


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#71 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6393

Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:38 AM

Every few years I take a look at Linux (I'm due another look soon) but have always to date felt that it lacked a lot of the basic functionality that I take for granted in Windows, and back away from it.

 

Where Windows has succeeded may historically have been due to dubious business practices, but since the NT kernel-based versions started going mainstream there has also been an element of "worse is better" about it - the harsh truth there is that Windows simply stopped sucking and started being good enough for most serious tasks a long time ago.

 

What seems to be an unfortunate bad habit of many in Unix-land is that they pick a baseline year, decide for themselves that absolutely nothing has changed since then, and carry on as if that were the truth.  In this case it's sometime around 1998/99.  So much has happened in Windows evolution and development since then; a Windows 2000 (even!) box is easily capable of uptimes of 5 years or more (in practice Windows updates mean that will never happen, but I've personally seen many such boxes hitting that mark in reasonably controlled/sealed environments), for example, so the old myth of "Windows crashes every coupla days" is blatant horsesh-t.

 

One other unfortunate thing about Unix-land is a tendency to rip itself apart with infighting.  Historically this has been manifested in endianness wars, editor wars, and more recently Gnome vs KDE, distro wars, etc (you also see it in other technologies derived from this heritage, e.g. the evolution of many OpenGL extensions).  In Windows culture you tend to get one way of doing things, you may not like it, but it's consistent for everyone and you just get on with getting stuff done.

 

Ultimately it's not the OS, it's what you do with it that matters.


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.


#72 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5475

Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:20 PM

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mhagain" data-cid="5018649"><p>Every few years I take a look at Linux (I'm due another look soon) but have always to date felt that it lacked a lot of the basic functionality that I take for granted in Windows, and back away from it.<br />&nbsp;<br />Where Windows has succeeded may historically have been due to dubious business practices, but since the NT kernel-based versions started going mainstream there has also been an element of "worse is better" about it - the harsh truth there is that Windows simply stopped sucking and started being good enough for most serious tasks a long time ago.<br />&nbsp;<br />What seems to be an unfortunate bad habit of many in Unix-land is that they pick a baseline year, decide for themselves that absolutely nothing has changed since then, and carry on as if that were the truth.&nbsp; In this case it's sometime around 1998/99.&nbsp; So much has happened in Windows evolution and development since then; a Windows 2000 (even!) box is easily capable of uptimes of 5 years or more (in practice Windows updates mean that will never happen, but I've personally seen many such boxes hitting that mark in reasonably controlled/sealed environments), for example, so the old myth of "Windows crashes every coupla days" is blatant horsesh-t.<br />&nbsp;<br />One other unfortunate thing about Unix-land is a tendency to rip itself apart with infighting.&nbsp; Historically this has been manifested in endianness wars, editor wars, and more recently Gnome vs KDE, distro wars, etc (you also see it in other technologies derived from this heritage, e.g. the evolution of many OpenGL extensions).&nbsp; In Windows culture you tend to get one way of doing things, you may not like it, but it's consistent for everyone and you just get on with getting stuff done.<br />&nbsp;<br />Ultimately it's not the OS, it's what you do with it that matters.</p></blockquote><br />You might want to give the newer Ubuntu versions a try, i didn't think the last release i tried (12.04) to be polished enough for everyday use (too many annoying bugs and things that just didn't work out of the box) but it is doing some interesting things with the UI that are worth keeping an eye on. (The HUD in particular is a feature that for me atleast could make me ditch Mint for Ubuntu if they can get the integration with all key applications working out of the box(it was a bit too limited to get me to put up with all the annoying crap it had at the time), it has the potential to raise productivity dramatically and AFAIK noone else is doing anything similar yet)
I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#73 Net Gnome   Members   -  Reputation: 769

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:08 PM

Ubuntu (regardless of how you feel about it) is making linux really worth using day-to-day (not that you couldn't before). Mainly, due to wide-stemmed increases in standardization and community adoption and a remarkable increase in user friendliness as well as flexibility to modify (like any linux distro). With larger companies and communities as well as independants starting to notice the advances in the Ubuntu distro (EA, Valve, even nVidia is beginning to change its posture) and the incredible ease of acquiring/installing/managing software (Software Center/Synaptic in concert through Apt & Launchpad.net) have made it the no-brainer go-to distro for linux converts. While yes, many distros do things similarly, ubuntu follows a well honed KISS (keep it simple stupid) method focused on user accessibility that imho makes is better than alot out there. Love it or hate it, the nascent Unity desktop is actually well done and very useful and I'm very curious about how Wayland will shape up. As far as development goes, things like genie, eclipse, Qt (Qt 5 looks to be absolutely amazing btw), mono/monodevelop, Blender, GIMP, etc give you the tools you need to get stuff done and except for just simple environmental differences work exactly how you would expect them to.

 

All of these gave me more than enough cause to switch to Linux and leave Windows behind, so I have done so and I do not regret it one bit.

 

NOTE: edited to clean up garbles


Edited by Net Gnome, 07 January 2013 - 03:37 PM.


#74 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 5720

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:40 PM

Is it just me or are the posts from Linux users being utterly mangled by the forum software? <_<



#75 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 15018

Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:07 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if HL3 was a Steambox exclusive, though...

After launching Portal 2 on the Playstation 3, that seems unlikely.

 

Is it just me or are the posts from Linux users being utterly mangled by the forum software? dry.png

You'd think that all the Windows supporters would have their posts mangled/sabotaged, seeing that GameDev is presumably hosted on Linux servers. biggrin.png


Edited by Servant of the Lord, 07 January 2013 - 03:09 PM.

It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.

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#76 Net Gnome   Members   -  Reputation: 769

Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:21 PM

Is it just me or are the posts from Linux users being utterly mangled by the forum software?

 

 

actually, that was posted from a windows machine... the forum's edit button and script is to blame for that one. Or i shoudl say, IE's horrible interpretation of it rolleyes.gif. This one is done from within Chromium (chrome) on Ubuntu...



#77 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5475

Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Net Gnome" data-cid="5018745"><p><br /></p><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="phantom" data-cid="5018723"><p>Is it just me or are the posts from Linux users being utterly mangled by the forum software?</p></blockquote> <br /> <br />actually, that was posted from a windows machine... the forum's edit button and script is to blame for that one. Or i shoudl say, IE's horrible interpretation of it <img data-cke-saved-src="http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif" src="http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" title=":rolleyes:" />. This one is done from within Chromium (chrome) on Ubuntu...<br /> <br /><p><br /></p></blockquote><br />

Edited in some newlines , seems to work without getting mangled. (the first post got mangled though and i'm not bothering to clean it up) oh, and when editing the save changes button doesn't return to the forum, it stays in edit mode so i have to open a new tab to see if my changes got saved (or risk losing the changes if i reload the post)

I post this from Win7 (i only run Linux at work since i love my games too much to give up Windows). i use Chrome and the forum mangles my posts when i reply atleast, it usually works to edit out the mangled crap aftwards though but it's definitly not just IE.

Edited by SimonForsman, 07 January 2013 - 03:37 PM.

I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

#78 Net Gnome   Members   -  Reputation: 769

Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:35 PM

i use Chrome and the forum mangles my posts when i reply atleast, it usually works to edit out the mangled crap aftwards though so its definitly not just IE.

 

ok, then maybe its the script then...






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