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Video Games Cause Kids to SNAP!


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#21 proanim   Members   -  Reputation: 440

Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:38 PM

@Zido_Z


I'm on the other side of the fence saying that the video game industry NEEDS to be responsible for what they show to kids.
Because of this there are few rating sistems in place, so when parents or anyone wants to by the game they have indication of what's in it.


It's no different than placing a real gun in a kid's hands
I must say I don't agree with this. There is nothing close to real thing like a real life weapon in video game. They only look relistic to the eye. They don't act in any way similar to the real thing.

Edited by proanim, 12 January 2013 - 12:57 PM.


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#22 Hypnotron   Members   -  Reputation: 121

Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:42 PM

Thank you Zido_Z

 

I can't really confirm or deny what you've said.  I can only say that in my opinion, focussing on video game violence as a causal factor in the sorts of shooting rampages we've seen is not the type of discussion game developers want to get involved in. 

 

I think the scope must be expanded A) To all media B) to all  negative media messages.

 

I just feel that would be more productive in terms of spurring broader research and the stopping of the scape goating of games in particular.



#23 noatom   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:04 PM

Oh my god...First: Did you look on the back of a game you buy? There's a rating right there,specifying the appropiate age.What does that mean? Well..the same goes for porn movies.You have a little sign that says 18+ right?<br /><br />So what you are not seeing,is that you let your kids play gta and kill people ingame,even if they are ten.Is that the fault of the game,or the fault of the parents? I think it's the parents for sure.

Edited by noatom, 12 January 2013 - 01:04 PM.


#24 Hypnotron   Members   -  Reputation: 121

Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:27 PM

noatom: making parents ultimately responsible would be a good first step.  But at least in the US, this is not the norm.  Most children who commit crimes (for example) serve time in juvi or jail or prison on their own.

 

The reason parents are not held responsible is because it would be the first chink in the armor of the "personal responsibility" doctrine.  It would open up discussions about things like worker pay that results in both parents working and children seeing their teachers and peers more than they do their own parents during K-12.  Then of course refusing to deal with the pay issues, you'd have to blame the next adults on the totem pole... teachers.  Otherwise we'll just have it your way and do nothing and let the kids rob and kill the people you know.But we'll blame the kids and throw them in jail and that should make up for your loss.

 

noatom:  I don't know how to ask this question without seeming antagonistic.  But how do you know your view of "blame the parents" is not just a product of media indoctrination?  What is the basis for the position of parents in our society being the be all and end all of child guidance?  There are societies past and present in humans and non humans where all members of the tribe or society rear the children for the benefit of the society.

 

Children are influenced by so many things, it's really a cop out in the end to just say "parents are responsible!" or "personal responsibility!"  Even if you judge that the parent(s) are MOST responsible (besides the fact you're now opening the door to mutliple responsiblities) is that any excuse for the rest of society to ignore the welfare of children that aren't theres?  We already know that is not the case.  So the question is how far does that responsibility for other children of the society go?


Edited by Hypnotron, 12 January 2013 - 01:50 PM.


#25 Tasaq   Members   -  Reputation: 1235

Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:38 PM

I must state my point of view on the topic of "games causes violence". I think it depends on a person. I have played some agressive games when I was pretty much young (actually i still consider myself as VERY young, so let's say that I mean when i was 10-13). I am that kind of person that wouldn't hurt a fly, I wouldn't even kick a dog if one would attack me... But I also know people with opposite influence from games. Every coin has two sides. Media and parents always shows that bad side, but I consider it as just an excuse for their own mistakes. I don't think it's that hard to look at the game cover and see signs that says "Violence", "Bad language", "Sex", "Drugs" etc. I remeber how my father reacted when he saw me playing such games. He didn't shout at me, he didn't take the game away. Instead he started talking with me. And I believe that's best approach, there's nothing better to talk with own child. Nowadays parents don't have time to explain things and talk with their kids.

 

I would also add that I lerned from games that you should always pursue your dreams and never give up. One can learn that, other that guns and drugs are fun.

 

Oh I also noticed that:

It's no different than placing a real gun in a kid's hands

So don't do that! If a parent won't buy a game, the kid can't play it. For me it's just simple as that o.O



#26 proanim   Members   -  Reputation: 440

Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:47 PM

@Hypnotron

 

What exactly is the point of this discussion? noatom said practically the same thing I did.

 

Also this thing

 

 

The reason parents are not held responsible is because it would be the first chink in the armor of the "personal responsibility" doctrine

 

You do remember that until the person turns adult 18-21 years old parent has the final say. Of course when the person turns 13, 16 or 18 parent is not exactly in same position as earlier, but still responsible. And then we have the other issue which is piracy, where anyone can get unsitable content illegally and for free, and also in this case user or his parent is responsible for doing this.

 

There wasn't single case of someone going crazy because he played a violent video game, ever.



#27 Hypnotron   Members   -  Reputation: 121

Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:11 PM

If you are 10 and you steal a toy parent has final say? I don't know what that means.

 

I'm saying the child is still the one who is going to get in trouble with the law.  Not the parent.  In the U.S.A at least, the child will be charged with the crime and face legal punishment. 

 

My point about the "personal liability doctrine" is regarding this robotic mantra we site about "personal responsibility."  If suddently we start sending parents to jail for crimes committed by their children, you throw that doctrine out the window.  That wont ever happen because of the political dogma we preach.  Do a mental exercise and consider what starts to unravel there if you start charging the parents.  Parents that are both working just to provide basic necessities.  Parents that say "Why am I responsible?  I see my kid one hour before school and one hour before bed!"  Everyone else has more influence on my kid than I do!  If these parents are still ultimately responsible for their childs actions then it's for no logical basis other than they are the legal guardians. 


What other reasonable basis is there? 

 

My position is that all of society must be responsible for the welfare of the children being raised in it.  This includes media producers.  And to be clear (and to reitterate for the xth time) I'm not just talking about video game violence.  I'm talking about media in general.  I'm not talking about violence either.  I'm talking generally about virtues and vices that children pick up. 


Edited by Hypnotron, 12 January 2013 - 02:13 PM.


#28 L. Spiro   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 13600

Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

2) Games are no different from all other forms of media
Then shut up about games and start talking about other forms of media. Those with a greater impact on behavioral science would be a good start.

Who do you think you are anyway? Joe Biden?
Coming onto a site about developing games and talking this nonsense. It’s our business and obviously not yours. We know what we are doing. It is what we do all day every day.

People such as yourself come and go but are nothing but a nuisance. As a human you seem to think you have a point to make. You have made some opinion over time and now you think you need to share it, as if that is going to make the universe acknowledge your existence.
Your opinion has been acknowledged, bottled, and set aside. Now shoosh. Move along. We have games to make.

I hope it is not your goal to tell your grandchildren about how the only thing you ever accomplished was to annoy a small handful of game developers, because unless you get a clue that is where you are headed.


L. Spiro

Edited by L. Spiro, 12 January 2013 - 02:20 PM.

It is amazing how often people try to be unique, and yet they are always trying to make others be like them. - L. Spiro 2011
I spent most of my life learning the courage it takes to go out and get what I want. Now that I have it, I am not sure exactly what it is that I want. - L. Spiro 2013
I went to my local Subway once to find some guy yelling at the staff. When someone finally came to take my order and asked, “May I help you?”, I replied, “Yeah, I’ll have one asshole to go.”
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#29 proanim   Members   -  Reputation: 440

Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:22 PM

If you are 10 and you steal a toy parent has final say? I don't know what that means.

Parent is responsible for teaching you to not do these thing and to be nice to others and say 'thank you', etc, etc. Anywhere in the world you will get in trouble for stealing.

 

 

 

 Parents that say "Why am I responsible?  I see my kid one hour before school and one hour before bed!"

These are idiotic parents that are the root of todays problem. Parents are ALWAYS responsible for their kids actions.



#30 MadisonD   Members   -  Reputation: 248

Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:42 PM

This is one of the more ridiculous posts I've ever seen, ever.

 

You're using your own personal experiences to draw conclusions that are asinine, and then anyone who responds to you using their own personal experiences, you instantly switch positions that "personal experience doesn't matter, it just reinforces your opinion." You also go on with some ridiculous claims like (paraphrased) "putting a gun in a kids hand in a video game is the same as them having a real gun, because it sounds and looks the same." (also as a side note, you claimed that a child would be responsible for stealing a toy in the US, which is actually flat out wrong - any crimes committed by a child require restitution by the parent or guardian, however at the 18th birthday the parent/guardian can petition the state/county/city/federal court to shift the fiscal responsibility to the adult, now that they've legally reached adulthood.)

 

First, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never been forced into a position where you had to actually shoot someone, so your logic here is pretty disrespectful to those who have. Taking another persons life, in reality (not in video games, movies, tv shows, cartoons, et cetera), is a MAJOR thing. Why do you think that even those who've been professionally trained to the best of their countries ability (any country) still suffer from PTSD from real life combat? If it's so real, shouldn't people playing video games, watching movies, and consuming the media you're chastising experience PTSD at an equal rate? If so, half our population would be catatonic from games like BF3/Halo/COD and movies like Saving Private Ryan or Kill Bill or basically anything where anyone kills someone.

 

Second, let's go ahead and agree that mass media in general (this includes all forms, including videogames) is in a pretty sad state. It's easy to see when shows like Jersey Shore are popular, or the long-lasting decline of the Discovery/TLC/History channels (Honey Boo Boo deson't belong on the learning channel, storage wars/pawn stars etc do not belong on the history channel.) But let's step back and remember that consumption drives creation when you're a business. Why did we stop showing the formation of the universe, or explaining the processes of childbirth with 3D MRIs of fetal development stages to show Honey Boo Boo, or Entourage, or The Wire or Breaking Bad. Because that's what people want to watch, the companies would go out of business if they didn't provide it.

 

Third, personal responsibility is basically what makes us humans. I agree that in the time we're alive (and, historically pretty much forever as far as I know.) Human beings are pretty terrible to each other. Things like rape, murder, assaults, fraud, theft - pretty much all of those are directly beneficial to one person and detrimental to others. The simple fact is that we're not in the utopia of humanity that Gene Roddenberry envisioned for the Star Trek universe. You can't pretend that asking companies to go out of business by providing edutainment when that's not what the populace is asking for right now, isn't a little short sighted.

 

Finally, let's be completely totally honest, and use what you hate - personal experience. I've played violent video games basically my entire life, I love violent movies (especially war epics, and post-apocalypse survival tales) they're so different from reality that they're an interesting experience for me. I'm not a violent person, I've only ever hurt another person (or animal, or anything) in self defense, and if you think you can tell me my personal experience of having to take someone else's life in defense of my own is irrelevant to the topic, you're too angry or delusional to reach logically. In fact, I tend to go out of my way to protect other people (even complete strangers.) It also so happens that some of my best and closest friends happen to be your typical 'hero' archtypes (firefighters, emergency medical workers, all sorts of first responders actually including law enforcement, my family has a military history, and I know my fair share of doctors, scientists, et cetera - as well as what most people would consider skeezy - people who might sell weed, or maybe just are highschool drop outs covered in tattoos.) Guess what? Most of them are completely decent people, and every single one of them likes violent movies and video games, for the exact reason I stated - it's an interesting experience that we all know isn't real.

 

People have got to stop blaming companies, media, guns, celebrities, whatever - for the problems that our society is having. It doesn't matter where you are in the world, our society as a whole has systemic problems throughout it. Education and parental involvement in a childs development are absolutely required. My ancedotal evidence would be that myself, and all the people I know who are good people - we all were raised by very good parents, involved in our lfies, allowed us to learn and grow, et cetera - and most of us, myself included - didn't come from well off families. I went to public school, both my parents worked, but they raised me to be responsible for my own actions, and shaped my moral system. Stop blaming everyone else, the problem starts and stops with the child and his or her own parents (or guardians), if you want to make a difference, you don't need to try to change the media. That's a top down approach (that if you haven't noticed, has been proven to be pretty ineffective at changing anything at all.) If you want to help, go find a kid who needs a mentor, and help them become a better person. If other people follow suit (even if it's just that kid, when he grows up, helping other kids, who will help other kids when they grow up) you will eventually cause the slow, gradual bottom-up change that's necessary for a permanent paradigm shift. You're trying to fix the effect, you need to fix the cause. If you're not mentoring or helping a child who doesn't have a good role model, and you're posting arguments like this online, you're part of the problem - not the solution.

 

This is absolutely all I have to say on the subject, and I will not respond to this thread again.



#31 L. Spiro   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 13600

Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:06 PM

proanim, don’t get drawn into his circular logic. As with religion, he has already made up his mind and you will never get your point across.
He is the type of person who believes the Bible is true because the Bible itself says it is true.

You can point out 10 obvious flaws in his logic and you will only get met with 10 ridiculous excuses. Excuses tailored towards letting him believe the last 10 years of his life (the approximate amount of time it takes for one to begin an idea and then solidly believe in it) were not the waste that they were.

I am only going to point out the most obvious among them: How his point-of-view defeats itself.

Hi, I am L. Spiro, and I played violent video games as a child. I grew up with Mortal Kombat and I put more of my life into Killer Instinct than I will openly admit.
I have only met my father a few times and I never really saw my mother much as I grew up. I was raised by video games. Violent video games.

And here I am today, traveling the world making video games. In fact I have just gone through my worst days in recent times, as the person I intended to marry for the last 2 years just got married. And not to me.
I am going through the normal grieving process through which everyone else goes. I have been consumed by tears for the last few days.

But did I do a 12-hit combo on that person? Did I take up guns and start shooting people?
In fact I didn’t even post about it on Facebook, and if you have seen my GameDev.net posts during the last 3 days you would not have a clue that this kind of drama was happening in the background.


It has nothing to do with how I was raised. Nothing to do with the games I played.
Nothing to do with my parents.
The only factor at play is my frontal lobe. If life deals you a good one you can grow up to be a great person no matter what hardships you face as a child.
If life deals you a bad one you really don’t have much of a chance. Whether it be games or something else, you only gain satisfaction from the bad experiences.
That is how his point-of-view defeats itself. Your frontal lobe can get just as much good out of games—and everything else—as it can bad. Games are an easy target so these kinds of people target them, unable to muster anything more. But ultimately:
#1: Once games are eliminated and you see the same rate of crime, what will your next target be?
#2: Why acknowledge only the bad that people gain from games? Why never acknowledge the good?  Someone seems biased!

 

 

Instead of telling developers what to do why don’t you tell kids to get better frontal lobes?  Frontal lobes will chew on any experience and magnify either the good or the bad.

Bad people will be bad without video games.

Good people will be good even with bad video games.

 

Deal with this reality check instead dragging your drama into our forums.

 

 

L. Spiro


It is amazing how often people try to be unique, and yet they are always trying to make others be like them. - L. Spiro 2011
I spent most of my life learning the courage it takes to go out and get what I want. Now that I have it, I am not sure exactly what it is that I want. - L. Spiro 2013
I went to my local Subway once to find some guy yelling at the staff. When someone finally came to take my order and asked, “May I help you?”, I replied, “Yeah, I’ll have one asshole to go.”
L. Spiro Engine: http://lspiroengine.com
L. Spiro Engine Forums: http://lspiroengine.com/forums

#32 MarkS   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 882

Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:03 PM

What I have noticed about the recent mass shootings is that the people responsible, regardless of age, had mental issues that were either known and ignored or not known at the time. Most of the children who have committed these acts were tormented by other children in school. The fact that most played violent video games or watched violent movies is irrelevant. They had issues that were not being addressed and snapped.

 

I am ever amazed at how we are so willing to point fingers at something else when the actual issue is too difficult to address. "Violent media is the issue! NO, guns are the issue! No, guns and violent media are both equally the issue. Ad nauseam."

 

The actual issue is that parents are no longer closely monitoring the well being of their children. Children are allowed to live their lives in secret. Parents often know little about the personal lives of their children. Bullying is practically ignored and responding to a bully will typically get the child that is bullied in more trouble than the bully. The end result is a situation where a bullied child has no choice but to repress the hurt and anger. This is terribly unhealthy. When mental issues get involved, all the worse. Mental health is of virtually no importance in today's society. People are walking the streets criminally insane because no one is willing to do anything about it. We don't want to force them to take medications. We don't want to institutionalize until they commit a crime. We let them slip through the cracks.

 

The people that commit these acts are going to commit these acts regardless if we stop violent media and destroy all guns.



#33 ApochPiQ   Moderators   -  Reputation: 15737

Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

Yeah, no.




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