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Ideas are a dime a dozen...


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#41 Sandman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2088

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:00 AM

My stand was (and probably still is) mistaken for a lack of willingness to flesh out a prototype. The fact is that I an not willing to flesh out a prototype specifically for the sake of demonstration.
 
It can be argued that  a prototype specifically for demonstration, would be work done towards your project (as experience if nothing else) and can ultimately be used within the final product. But as you so elegantly put it, demonstration of the material kind are expensive and time consuming. So much so, that the scope/scale of something as I wish to develop, would not allow it and could quite possibly rendering it pointless. The amount of time and effort I'd spend even producing a prototype could easily cause an overlap of technology, cultural relevance, fall steeply under the trend curve as well as be out developed by up and coming concepts.

 

I think you underestimate the value of a prototype.

 

A prototype can tell you many things, and most importantly of all, it tells you things before you invest too much into them. Rather than developing a whole game and then finding out that several core features suck, you can throw together some quick and dirty minigames that demonstrate the core features and prove that they are a) feasible to develop and b)  entertaining enough to justify their inclusion in the game. The more atypical the feature, the more important this is.

 

If you don't want to develop prototypes because your features are so complex that it would take "too long", that to me is a pretty clear sign that your features are not feasible for you to implement. In a way, the prototype has done it's job without even having to write it - it's just up to you to accept what it's telling you.



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#42 starbasecitadel   Members   -  Reputation: 699

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:27 AM

I think you underestimate the value of a prototype.
 
A prototype can tell you many things, and most importantly of all, it tells you things before you invest too much into them. Rather than developing a whole game and then finding out that several core features suck, you can throw together some quick and dirty minigames that demonstrate the core features and prove that they are a) feasible to develop and b)  entertaining enough to justify their inclusion in the game. The more atypical the feature, the more important this is.
 
If you don't want to develop prototypes because your features are so complex that it would take "too long", that to me is a pretty clear sign that your features are not feasible for you to implement. In a way, the prototype has done it's job without even having to write it - it's just up to you to accept what it's telling you.
 

 

 

By prototype do you generally mean a full on mini game that is released to the public (with very limited marketing and a different brand), or something you produce internally that your internal team and small group of alpha testers uses to give you feedback?

 

I'm dealing with this issue for my own game.. trying to decide if launching a fairly unpolished game missing many features (that nonetheless is fully playable) in 1 year is the way to go versus a much more polished, feature-rich game in 2.5 years.



#43 JTippetts   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8264

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:21 AM

Prototypes typically aren't release candidates. They're developed internally, probably using throwaway or placeholder assets of the crudest form, intended only to stand as a proof-of-concept.

Typically with a prototype, you're not going to polish it. There probably won't be a main menu, starting screen, etc... If there are UI elements, they'll be crude and just functional enough to work. (Unless it's a UI prototype, of course).

Games are big. They're complex houses of cards built from a lot of smaller pieces. Every piece has to be solid and stable if it is to support the weight of the house of cards. Further, "fun" is such a subjective and ephemeral concept that it simply can not be quantified or judged based solely on abstract, non-concrete design. You have to get your designs out in front of real players (for prototypes, these are internal players: staff, if it's a studio, friends and family if it's a lone wolf) as soon as possible and as often as possible, to weed out what fails to support the house from what works. It is sometimes the case that the most grand and fun sounding elements of a design turn out to be the ones that bring the whole house down; without prototyping, you might not find these out before it is too late to really do anything about it.

#44 Milcho   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1175

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:27 AM

My stand was (and probably still is) mistaken for a lack of willingness to flesh out a prototype. The fact is that I an not willing to flesh out a prototype specifically for the sake of demonstration.

 

I have to agree with what Sandman said - prototypes are incredibly valuable for the reasons he listed.

 

Adding to that, I think that prototypes can, without too much effort, be done in such a way that when you're done tweaking / fixing the mechanic you're testing, you can almost just

take any code or work you've put into the prototype and integrate it as a part of your actual game, or even use it as a starting point for your actual game, again without too much effort.

I'm doing something like that currently, where my project started with me messing around with some collision stuff and I slowly build upon it as a base for a game, and I think it's working out fairly well.



#45 Olof Hedman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2718

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:19 AM

When doing UI prototyping at my old employer (In mobile UI industry), some prototypes involved absolutely no code at all.

Just cardboard cutouts, postits, tape and studs.

 

Prototypes should be just that, the bare minimum to show the concept and enable the team to play around with it, and modify what doesn't work until it works. (or is thrown away)



#46 SinisterPride   Members   -  Reputation: 210

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:36 PM

What is a common misconception people like me, oops I mean "Idea Guys" (.. silly idea guys) have?

 

That game design (thoughts, organizational aspects, iteration) is more cerebral, artistic and creative than YOU proposed when you vaguely defined Game Design as: 

 

Taking an idea (existing or brand new) and making it work in an actual product under resource/time constraints

 

You were so "precise" in your statement that you could of been talking about a magic 8 ball and defined it the same way. Which is why, at the time, I recycled some words within the surrounding post to stay relevant to the topics at hand and said:

 

What you defined is functional game development. Game design is in fact more about daydreaming and spewing ideas. Where they meet, tying into what you're saying, lies within the balance of ideology and functionality/feasibility.

 

Take note of the wording. I never said Game Design is in fact ALL/MOSTLY/ABOUT daydreaming and spewing ideas. I even admitted to Sir Sloper that I made a poor choice of words which is where your retort comes into play.

 

Design is far more cerebral, artistic and creative than -mere daydreaming. +Legendre was painting it out to be.

 

Makes more sense now that I paid more attention to what you chopped off. Its ok, you've made some points which I admit have shut me up or changed my perspective/made me think. However, the "Idea Guy" can totally prove you wrong some times too.

 

Speaking of which:

 

On the contrary: creativity and artistry is about skillful, innovative use of the available tools, materials or techniques or the ability to invent/create new ones. Well designed games are those that are able to tell a compelling story or craft amazing gameplay within the given constraints.

 

On the contrary? What are you countering? The quote you highlighted was taken out of context and spoke of the more mathematical/logical/scientific disciplines within the development process. They're jobs DO in fact leave little to no space for artistry. The only part which was even remotely close to what that quote was refering to was the mention of creating tools. In case you didn't know (but ofcourse you do, you're not an idea guy like me) creating tools is something that has to be done often from scratch by Programmers to aid Graphic Artist as well as streamline work for other Programmers.

 

Also, your comment:

 

.. skillful, innovative use of the available tools, materials or techniques ..

 

.. is so vague that you basically described what 95% of all Craftsmen/Artisans/Creators do. Kudos wink.png

 

As you may already know, I was making a comparison and subsequent correction of a common seperation/horrid definition of Design/Development. I was making a differentiation in definition which many seem to have a very failed concept of..

 

Don't worry, I'll break it down a bit here:

 

Definitions taken directly from Www.Dictionary.com

 

Development: the act or process of developing; growth; progress:

 

Developing: undergoing development; growing; evolving.

 

Design:

1. to prepare the preliminary sketch or the plans for (a work to be executed), especially to plan the form and structure of.

 

2. to form or conceive in the mind; contrive; plan.

_______

 

So what does this tell me, the "Idea Guy"?

 

It tells me that I have an Idea of where and how to show that there is a line drawn which clearly states what is and isn't design within the industry. The confusion which so many others seem to have stems from a misunderstanding and generalization of terms which I will attempt to mostly clarify in one a simple statement.

_________

 

Design is inarguably a part of Development within the gaming industry (as well as many other industries) and therefore IS a form of Development. Development however, is comprised of multiple aspects some of which (NOT all) comprise elements of Design.

 

Therefore, Design is ALWAYS Development while Development does NOT always entail Designing.

_________

 

I hope that was clear and accurate. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

I'll now address some more direct comments on my work. If I didn't know how to receive criticism and opinions I would of taken direct offense to the manner in which some of this was stated.

 

However, the way I see it, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I can either choose to agree or disagree. In essence, my choices are to bicker like an immature little child and respond in a detrimental fashion or I accept your input in a productive way even if I don't agree with it. I did in fact take more offense originally before rereading and editing this. Reason being that I felt you know nothing of what is developed out side of ONE facet which I've shared. Nor do you know much of anything about what knowledge I may possess aside from what you assume to know about me. What makes it worse is that this is all according to what little I have shared pertaining mostly to my opinions since introducing myself a couple of days ago. As I said to Sir Sloper, I haven't claimed to be anything more than a Gamer/Fanboy. I am not an industry proffesional nor do I even consider myself an official hobbyist designer/developer. Sadly, the commentary on my game idea bothered me less than what I presumed as you insulting my intelligence. I humbly apologize if I have offended you Sir Legendre.

 

Nonetheless, here goes my response to your commentary on my ideas:

 

Take for example, the combat in your "Project: Alter Ego". Given the constraints of the PS3/Xbox controller, you try to design a fun combat experience for your user. You also need to consider the constraint of how this combat control system fit in your overall game, and how feasible it is to implement vs a simpler system. You also should prototype, test and iterate. You might have to come up with creative ways to pull off certain features given the limitations of the controller. This is design.

What isn't design: ignore all the constraints and assume that you can motion capture all user actions in-game and somehow allow your users to perform difficult moves like somersaults and fencing moves. Then proceed to daydream a game where users participate in epic medieval battles in a virtual reality with life-like detail. Takes zero effort, zero creativity and is completely worthless.

 

I've noticed you use the word constraint quite often. It sparked a memory (I have a bit of a accurate memory for detail if my mention of Rygar and Bushido blade didn't demonstrate it [I was about 7 years old when Bushido Blade was fresh on the  market if it puts anything into perspective]) of something which although I don't remember where I read or heard it, stuck to me: 

 

"A good designer takes into account their teams' as well as their own strengths, weaknesses, tools/skill sets, resources, and available time. Knowing these things very well, a good designer sets a realistic perimeter of what CAN be acchieved. However, limits are NEVER drawn, they are reached. A good designer knows this."

________

 

 

Your comments:

 

.. need to consider how.. combat control system fit in your overall game.. feasible to implement vs a simpler system.

 

The combat system is one of the key features and core mechanics. How could I:

 

1) Not consider every other aspect around a key feature as well as consider a key feature around every other aspect.

2) A simpler system which is common place to REPLACE a key feature? wheres the challenge and attempted innovation in that? sleep.png

 

..should also protoype.. creative ways to pull off... limitation of controller.. -*bright smile, thumb up, wink*- "THIS is Design!"-

 

Good point, I actually have to fight my perfectionist tendancies/urges all the time in the name of productivity (look at how many average edits each of my replies and post have sleep.png its a curse and a gift lol). So I understand everyones concern with Q&A and prototyping quite well. Its unrealistic to think you can land something from concept to final product without tweaking, testing and generally stressing the hell out of that product in every form to squeeze out every tiny bug/unexpected/unintended outcome you possibly can. Why does it seem everyone assumes I'm against fine tunning my work? laugh.png

 

This is the end of my reply to Sir Legendre. Again I'm sorry for my childish behavior and I humbly offer my apologies.

_______

 

I said it somewhere on here the other day, I have my reasons for why I never actively stepped passed any of the various forms of design. Aside from emotional uncertainty, as I also said somewhere, I'm human and not all of my decisions are based solely on logic. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to do anything other that write in order to forward my work and passion.

 

I'm not one to boast or speak of my achievements and capabilities with high regard but in this case I'll push it just a bit.

 

I've done my own concept art, written my own lore, designed my own technical input/motion layouts, taught myself basic scripting in hopes of being able to atleast contribute or do some of the programing, designed skill and spell systems and trees, developed the way(s) I want to track expierience which isn't as mainstream as we're used to/have seen, designed multiple menus, huds, UIs and concepts for tracking things that are usually displayed on huds without having to clutter the screen, extensively thought of time mechanics to interact with varying other mechanics in the world enviroments as well as for character development, explored methods for online multiplayer which localizes server loads between players wishing to play with each other (sort of like lan with a bit of a twist in networking) which would in theory allow large gatherings of adventurers without requiring dedicated servers by spreading the load of bandwidth allocation to each individual player wishing to play, developed professions which tie into character development in a direct way not just as varying side benefits, extensively tied the environment into said professions while theoretically eliminating extensive rendering or resources in the enviroment when entering and moving around areas, theorized on ways to minimize input lag by uniforming control and response methods between the world and the player/npcs (this ties into the combat system as well).. and other stuff that I probably cant think of off the top of my head.. 

 

This is why I was so adamant by Lady SunAndShadows post. I approach from a design heavy perspective, but that doesn't mean I dont understand and take other aspects of development into account.

 

Last bit of general commentary on what I feel is unfair and would like to see less of around here.

 

 

- It seems some people feel strongly about triggers (things I have said or are commonly said)  which leads to a automatic dismissal and subsequent tossing of everything that comes along with a given comment or proposed topic. This is unfair, we should strive to look past our prejudices and disect/attack the topics at hand, not our assumptions of what whoever said it may be like.

 

- As soon as some of us are convinced/assume that someone is "THAT" type of guy often refered to as the "Idea Guy" (which I've taken a liking to calling myself lol) a subconciously (or possibly conscious) trend of finding fault in just about everything that person can say occurs. I think we lose so many oppurtunities to educate and constructively contribute due to this.

 

- Some of us (I can be accused of doing it or coming off this way at times as well) have a "high-horse" attitude and scoff at ideas which is never an appropriate/mature response. We should take oppurtunities like this to either enlighten or pose a constructive response not condescend.

 

My ShiGong, Grandmaster Alan Lee once told me something which I will never forget:

 

We all start as novices in all given respects. It is the responsibility and duty of the more experienced to educate, lead and protect the inexperienced.

 

Regardless of what the case maybe I would appreciate it, if above all, we:

 

-Stop automatically assuming that inexperience is equivalent to lack of knowledge.

 

-That unwillingness to follow certain "standard paths" is a sign of doomed failure. We all walk our own paths in life, Game design and Development is no exception.

 

-Mainly, I would appreciate it if we could stop bashing each others strengths, methods and preferences. As Lady SunAndShadow so eloquently put it:

 

I think of design and development as different types of activities, but they're not wholly separate in that both are essential to artistic creation.  A successful creator is by definition able to do both, so perhaps the reason why you have difficulty picturing a designer who does not like developing is that they are set up to fail at actually creating anything.  But that doesn't mean they don't exist, and a few succeed by either forcing themselves to do the development like it's exercise or homework, or by using money as leverage to get others to do the development.

______________

 

On a more personal note:

 

If I had listened and taken to heart all the negative commentary through out my years of pursing this "hobby", I would of never been able to consider setting foot on the path to become a designer. In fact, after my first attempt at college (which failed in case you were wondering) in which I studied Multimedia Development with a focus in Game Design, I left the path to later pursue a career as a writer/artist and almost didn't set foot back into it. This should put my OP into perspective in regards to some of the vague details in which I praise and thank Sir Sloper.

 

This may all have seemed like a huge vent but I'm confident that aside from being that it has plenty of useful perspective and information. I am simply making a stand. If anyone has anything to say to or about me on ANYTHING within this post that does NOT pertain to design or development. Please, feel free to private message me. I'd be more than glad to hear you out if you feel I am wrong for saying anything I have said. But I will not have bickering that is of no benefit to others littering my thread.

 

 I'm gonna go through hell editing this sleep.png Guess averaging out 90wpm isnt as fun when you have to go back and edit lol tongue.png 

 

Edit: I did go through hell editing that laugh.png

 

I'd like to thank all of you who down voted my original version of this reply/post as well as Sir Milcho for private messaging me and opening my eyes wider to the error of my ways.

 

Sincerely,

Alfred Liriano

aka

SinisterPride

←§• ɸ◦§→


Edited by SinisterPride, 23 January 2013 - 05:11 AM.


#47 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2729

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:15 PM

Welcome to GameDev.net where you will find that a large percentage of the posters have a leaning towards the more practical side of game creation i.e. the actual work in making games a reality. This does not make them right I should point out but it also does not make them wrong either. The practical implementation of ideas into reality is absolutely necessary to seeing a game produced, indeed it is completely relevant in this particular point: You don't need a good idea(s) to make a game.

 

Multiple interpretations of what a game designer's role consists of have been pointed out and indeed there is a plethora of older posts in this this particular forum which rehash the same debate. Stepping away from that though...if you have an idea but you do absolutely nothing with it beyond the confines of your own person...then your idea while serving a function of personal value does not service anyone else. Ideas can be a dime a dozen but finding which ideas are effectively worth more can also be tricksome and often results in expensive mistakes when ideas of seeming value turn out to be fool's gold. This is basic industry experience (applicable across all industries tbh). Having the idea does not inherently make it valuable (excepting on a personal basis) and the only way to discover whether it has value is to begin the translation of that idea into a practicable form until as such time as you reach a point where you recognise it will not work out or alternatively a game is created.

 

Don't take the criticism in this thread as being personal to you. If you track back through older posts you will find similar threads to yours in this forum with regard the "Idea" and its relative value as perceived by many as being insufficient of itself. Personally I am of the belief that this is somewhat of an engineer's perspective which is often the role of taking something nebulous and creating something practicable. Ideas in my opinion do have their place and have a valid reason to be but ...they don't have to be used.

 

In a practical sense, if you are the idea man then you are seeking others to do the work for you. This is fine...just provide the appropriate compensation to those who would build your idea into reality or alternatively, inspire others to do it gratis.You will find people on this site who can be inspired to do things gratis but that doesn't mean they want to do all the work (nor would it be fair to think that they should).



#48 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4727

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:49 PM

Welcome to GameDev.net where you will find that a large percentage of the posters have a leaning towards the more practical side of game creation i.e. the actual work in making games a reality. This does not make them right I should point out but it also does not make them wrong either.

So true.  I was reflecting on this while I was writing my pet game guide - it was initially for a different community than gamedev, and I noticed how that made me feel freer than usual to talk about designing MMOs and similar large projects that are impractical for any beginner indie designer to try to actually make.  If I'd been writing it for here I would have known from experience to expect flak if I didn't spend an extra paragraph or two discussing why beginners are unlikely to succeed at making any but the simplest game.  SinisterPride, being a new fish in this pond, isn't familiar with the fact that "do whatever it takes to actually get a game made, including thinking small and unoriginal" is a popular 'political' platform here, and so is kind of always there in the background of every conversation about game design.  Even in this post I'm wondering whether I have to include extra sentences about how the value of actually getting a game made is inarguable, and designing something small but good is just as challenging as designing something big; doesn't seem safe to assume others will assume I know that.

 

I dunno; I've spent years struggling not to be "the idea guy" (or girl, rather).  I have a natural tendency to that role, but it's not ultimately satisfying because it just doesn't work.  Still, even though I know it's "fighting the good fight" I get really tired of working against my own nature; that's not terribly satisfying either.


Phone game idea available free to someone who will develop it (Alphadoku game - the only existing phone game of this type is both for windows phone only and awful. PM for details.)


I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.


#49 SinisterPride   Members   -  Reputation: 210

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:25 PM

I'd like to bring attention to the edit of my ignorant post earlier. I took some time to rewrite the whole thing.

 

Again, thank you all for your input you guys are awesome happy.png



#50 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 9763

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

"do whatever it takes to actually get a game made, including thinking small and unoriginal" is a popular 'political' platform here, and so is kind of always there in the background of every conversation about game design.

 

Over on the technical side we have "Write games, not engines" which fills roughly the same political role as "don't be the idea guy" - it's largely true, people hate to hear it, and small subset of users ignore it and continue to do their thing. And if someone wants to spend their life building poorly-concieved graphics engines (or pie-in-the-sky MMO designs), far be it from me to discourage them...

 

But if they then come here and ask, "where do I go from here?" (as the OP does), then the only possible response is a cold dose of reality.

 

Honestly, if the OP is looking for a pat on the head, and a "just keep at it, someone will recognise your talent someday", I know several motivational groups who would be happy to oblige. But in the real world there are various steps between "I have an idea" and someone to build that idea for you...


Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#51 thade   Members   -  Reputation: 1652

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:47 PM

I'd like to bring attention to the edit of my ignorant post earlier. I took some time to rewrite the whole thing.


I mean no offense, my man, but that post is HUGE. Somebody somewhere in one of your threads mentioned that you should endeavor to become more concise with your communication, and I definitely agree. No one ever says that a speech is too short...but on a forum readers will very often tune out if your post requires any use of the Page Down key. <3


I was previously serratemplar; a name I forfeited to share a name with an angry rank-bearing monkey.

http://thadeshammer.wordpress.com/


#52 Kylotan   Moderators   -  Reputation: 3333

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:48 PM

I personally don't believe that ideas are worthless, or that there is anything wrong with discussing theory or concepts. But ultimately, this is Gamedev.net, not Talkaboutgamedev.net. The aim is to get games made. I'm not going to tell anybody that they shouldn't make an MMO or whatever, but I am going to reiterate that these things don't build themselves.

 

Incidentally, Gamedev.net has a bit of a reputation among game development websites as being mostly frequented by newbies and dreamers with little in the way of actual games being 'devved'. The people who are actually shipping games they made themselves are mostly over on TigSource.com. So, if anything, we here at Gamedev.net are not biased enough towards the practical aspect.



#53 SinisterPride   Members   -  Reputation: 210

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:52 PM

@Thade The way I see it is, if it pertains to something someone feels like reading/is interested in, they won't feel pressured in its length. I also format constantly so people can realize when I'm ending or straying or starting a new topic. This way, they can choose to stop reading at any point they start to lose interest and NOT miss out on anything they might have wanted to read/could benefit from/contribute to.

 

P.S. That someone was in fact Sir Legendre. To which I haven't posted my reply yet (formatting and correctly wording still). I see his and your point but I stick to my original statement. If you don't like it, dont read it. If you do, thank you for taking your time to read it and it more than likely didn't feel like a waste/bothered you. 


Edited by SinisterPride, 26 January 2013 - 07:01 AM.


#54 Stormynature   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2729

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:18 PM

@Thade The way I see it is, if it pertains to something someone feels like reading/is interested in, they won't feel pressured in its length.

...

 

If you don't like it, dont read it. If you do, thank you for taking your time to read it and it more than likely didn't feel like a waste/bothered you. 

 

You are in danger of enabling your thread to be pulled right off your actual topic for this thread. I am not disagreeing with your assertion of how you present your posts or even the length of them, but with regard to your actual thread, paying attention to issues that detract from the actual subject is the fastest way I know of degenerating a thread into uselessness and probably locking. To a degree you need to moderate your own threads by reminding people to keep on track where appropriate, possibly summarising various points and thoughts derived out of the thread so far into a form that enable further constructive discussion or points to the fact that you have obtained enough information to your satisfaction on the subject. If you see something that strikes you as needing commentary but stands out as separate issue from the thread's subject consider using the Messenger tool as a form of reply.

 

I should point out that if I purely intended this message for you I would have also utilised that tool. But it strikes me that a gentle reminder allround about keeping to the thread's subject and its appropriate evolution is not a bad thing.



#55 thade   Members   -  Reputation: 1652

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:25 PM

Apologies; I didn't intend to derail and I meant no disrespect. My goal was only friendly advice...advice which really applies to most situations in life. When saying anything, the briefer it is the more likely it is to be understood and to be memorable. If your goal is to reach an audience, brevity is fundamental. That is especially true on the Internet. Youtube and cat videos are legit one tab away.

 

But don't mind me.


I was previously serratemplar; a name I forfeited to share a name with an angry rank-bearing monkey.

http://thadeshammer.wordpress.com/


#56 SinisterPride   Members   -  Reputation: 210

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

Thank you Sir StormyNature, I'll keep an eye on it.

 

I actually attempted to do just that with the edit of my last large post.

 

Specifically from when I said:

 

Last bit of general commentary on what I feel is unfair and would like to see less of around here.

 

Up until I quoted Lady SunAndShadow



#57 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17771

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:28 PM

Consider this an official moderator warning that everyone -- and that includes you as the original poster SinisterPride -- is to stay on topic from this point onwards, as things are already getting off the topic at hand and the topic will have to be locked if it strays much farther.

 

-------------------------

 

@SinisterPride:  I realise you've put some effort into your posts, and I'm sure it's much appreciated that it helps increase readability -- and you're right that people who aren't interested can simply choose not to read -- but if you wish to effectively reach a larger audience I do however have two suggestions for you:

  1. Try to be as concise; if you can use less words or repeat yourself less it may aid the readability of your posts.
  2. Just use the standard font, which is clear and easy-to-read.  The one you've been choosing (comic sans?) is just that little bit more difficult to focus on and process.

-------------------------

 

In line with the above instruction, please do not respond to this post either.  There's been some good discussion so far, and it would be sad to see it dragged off topic. smile.png

 


#58 RealityFails   Members   -  Reputation: 155

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:33 PM

People without creative talent are a dime a dozen

#59 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8324

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:55 AM

I read the entire thread, and, no offense, SinisterPride, but at this point it really seems to me that you're more interested in getting people to agree with your own point of view than in taking advice from other members, especially those who have been in the industry a long time (all over the design-to-implementation spectrum).

 

The problem with simply offering ideas is that while it's good to have imagination and creativity, a good idea isn't going to transform into a fully fledged game over night. Actually getting the whole development process moving requires time, patience, money, and commitment, far more than many people who come on this board posting "I have this awesome idea for a game" threads are willing and/or capable to provide. People on Gamedev.net don't discourage newbies from "their idea" because they are a bunch of evil trolls, they do it to put the newbie into perspective and don't want to give him false hopes. No, good ideas are not dime a dozen - it's one thing to get a basic concept going but quite another to make it actually possible and playable. This is what game designers do for a living and it's a perfectly respectable profession, the only thing is it is being tarnished by this "idea guy" concept which is really just an uninformed person asking other people to create their game for them ("here is the initial idea - make it and give me 50% cut") which does not work.

 

The precise definition you use for "development", "design" and "idea guy" is irrelevant, the point has been made several times throughout the thread.


The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#60 SinisterPride   Members   -  Reputation: 210

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:00 AM

I realized something on a reread of my post/making sure I didn't miss any post before and after I was active.

 

I've said two things and attempted to clarify what I see as a common root cause for misunderstandings in the heavy matter of politics relating to balance in Design vs Development. 

 

Sir SwiftCoder, Lady SunAndShadow as well as Sir Kylotan have contributed generously and continuously to clarifying and adding their opinions to this cause within this post.

___________

 

I'd like to reiterate my two main contributions:

 

1. Realistic design and productive development meet at a vague threshold where the balance of ideology and functionality/feasibility is key.

 

2. 

Definitions taken directly from www.Dictionary.com

 

Development: the act or process of developing; growth; progress:

 

Developing: undergoing development; growing; evolving.

 

Design:

1. to prepare the preliminary sketch or the plans for (a work to be executed), especially to plan the form and structure of.

 

2. to form or conceive in the mind; contrive; plan.

_______

 

So what does this tell me, the "Idea Guy"?

 

It tells me that I have an Idea of where and how to show that there is a line drawn which clearly states what is and isn't design within the industry. The confusion which so many others seem to have stems from a misunderstanding and generalization of terms which I will attempt to mostly clarify in one a simple statement.

_________

 

Design is inarguably a part of Development within the gaming industry (as well as many other industries) and therefore IS a form of DevelopmentDevelopment however, is comprised of multiple aspects some of which (NOT all) comprise elements of Design.

 

Therefore, Design is ALWAYS Development while Development does NOT always entail Designing.

_________

 

I hope that was clear and accurate. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Edit: Duely noted Sir Jbadams, Tahoma ok? lol (I jus can't stand Arial)


Edited by SinisterPride, 23 January 2013 - 01:05 AM.





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