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Design:Development Ratio - What's your orientation?


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Poll: Design/Planning or Development/Implementation Oriented (53 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you spend more time designing a concept or trying to make it?

  1. Designing. I rather plan stuff out extensively before attempting to create and test it. (17 votes [32.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.08%

  2. Creating it. I rather have something to work with while I think of ways to improve and develop it. (36 votes [67.92%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 67.92%

Do you see Designing and Development as two different things?

  1. Yes, Designing isn't required when developing. (1 votes [1.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.79%

  2. Yes, but designing is a part of developing. (45 votes [80.36%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 80.36%

  3. No, they are both one and the same. (10 votes [17.86%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.86%

What is prototyping to you?

  1. Making a playable demo of my idea, feature, or concept. (37 votes [69.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 69.81%

  2. Sketching/Writing plans, notes and ideas. (2 votes [3.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.77%

  3. All of the above and then some. (14 votes [26.42%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.42%

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#21 Milcho   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1177

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:55 AM

I know I am among the minority who believe in a design heavy/design oriented foundation.

I don't think that's accurate. I think you're part of the group (not necessarily minoriy) that considers 'design' to be a mostly pre-implementation phase, where you can design your game to 75% without ever going into development specifics. (figure cited from what you said in your original post).

 

In that aspect I think your poll may not be as useful as it seems at first.

A more important question would perhaps be "How much of your original design survives the implementation/testing process and reaches the final product?"

 

The reason I say that is because I don't think any one person can fully visualize how all the designed but not yet implemented systems in a game will handle by themselves, let alone how they will handle when mixed together.

Unless your game is really simple and uses a lot of known mechanics, you'll have to implement the systems to see how they act, and potentially - and this where the the above question comes in - because I don't know how often this happens - change your design because the implemented results may not be exactly what you envisioned.

 

Also, Morphia's posts sound like a bit like an automatic translation, and since gamedev.ru was mentioned, I'm guessing that Morphia is probably Russian.



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#22 SinisterPride   Members   -  Reputation: 210

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:28 AM

The reason I say that is because I don't think any one person can fully visualize how all the designed but not yet implemented systems in a game will handle by themselves, let alone how they will handle when mixed together.
Unless your game is really simple and uses a lot of known mechanics, you'll have to implement the systems to see how they act, and potentially - and this where the the above question comes in - because I don't know how often this happens - change your design because the implemented results may not be exactly what you envisioned.

 

I'll edit/add to this  this later.. but my first small project should be of some use in showing somethings about me and the small team I'm with.



#23 Legendre   Members   -  Reputation: 966

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:43 AM

I too have plenty of experience and knowledge due to many sources of exposure. Thanks to these sources I have a rich understanding of the current technical limitation and capabilities of the gaming industry.  I have a strong sense of the techniques applied in both design and development. I've also been a gamer for as long as I can remember (picked up a nintendo controller and played well enough at the age of 2).
 
This means I have plenty of experience in reviewing/critiquing video games from a technical side as well as a fan/gamer.

 

1) "Been playing games for X years" does not count as game design/development experience and should never be one of your strengths/achievements/selling-points.

2) From what you posted, I don't think you have any idea what the current technical limitation/capabilities are.

 

For example, your idea to use an algorithm that will effectively separate players who are macro-ing/botting/automating vs legit players, and your idea to use an algorithm that will automatically generate/predict lower body movements/positions based on upper body motion is quite far fetched and unrealistic.

Also, your networking idea: "localizes server loads between players wishing to play with each other (sort of like lan with a bit of a twist in networking) which would in theory allow large gatherings of adventurers without requiring dedicated servers by spreading the load of bandwidth allocation to each individual player wishing to play" seems to demonstrate a lack of understanding of basic multi-player networking.



#24 thade   Members   -  Reputation: 1652

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:57 AM

A more important question would perhaps be "How much of your original design survives the implementation/testing process and reaches the final product?"

Milcho's recent post is great, but this in particular is super valuable. We need to define what we mean by "implementation/testing process" though, because I think the given is "It comes after the design phase" and the further inference I make is that "There's a fully functional prototype that may be ugly but is basically the game we want to make." That prototype is made during the design phase. In other words, there's already a ton of coding being done before the team sits down and really hammers out the game. Now, in established teams/firms they have libraries of assets and tools they can use to speed up the bootstrap (and for the rest of us, things like Unity and Gamemaker can really help us get a leg up) but it is both a step before implementation and a step beyond the "pencil and paper stage."

 

Maybe the question of interest is "How much of the pencil and paper stage survives coding" and I suspect the (conservative) answer is "Maybe half; hopefully most of the big features we don't cut for time or other resource considerations."

 

Finally, this has been said but bears repeating: there's absolutely no way to really tell whether or not a video game is fun without playing it. No amount of charts or graphs on a white board, no number of pages in a design document, and no pro-spun elevator speech will show you it's really fun...but a few minutes of actually trying the game will.


I was previously serratemplar; a name I forfeited to share a name with an angry rank-bearing monkey.

http://thadeshammer.wordpress.com/


#25 Morphia   Banned   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 02:43 PM

Yes - that Google translator .. need to be constantly adjusted. So quickly, when many : if it Unity3d this is Union (funny translation)
EU! Unity3D May Be Optimal Engine if you may use the Force Interface Tools .
AltarofScience was have The Fury Scheme for Design ( casual , but curiously enough , very good mirror for MMOG)

Interface Tools : developing for Kind Game - rich approach for Coding on Foundation on Design ( concrete ) .
But each Hacker of Coding must Know Game Design ?!
why is it for What Sense and Conversely : Who Develop the Game then.in Really .
You have to understand programming exactly as Scheme of Build for Resources of Game in HardWare and SoftWare Variants .

Edited by Morphia, 04 February 2013 - 02:45 PM.

Game Interface Manager ^|^ Deep Space Engineering

#26 Milcho   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1177

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:05 AM

Maybe the question of interest is "How much of the pencil and paper stage survives coding" and I suspect the (conservative) answer is "Maybe half; hopefully most of the big features we don't cut for time or other resource considerations."

I think that's a pretty good way to narrow that question down to something less prone to misinterpretation, since what people consider 'design' varies. Pencil and paper design sounds less vague, and targets a more specific area - and it can only go so far as you said. On the note of this, quoting some text from this lost garden article: (which thade linked in a different thread earlier, and it's a good read to all)

A game starts out with 1% game design and end up 100% production and polish. During the production and polish stages of the title, the game design is likely to change dramatically. For example, there was once a genre busting game design by a famous designer that involved a magic hammer and was described as an epic fantasy action RPG. Something very interesting happened along the way to creating the title. First, they did what every good team does in the early stages. They prototyped the concept and evolved what worked. The grand initial design ended up turning into an intense FPS shooter. What was this fantasy RPG? It was a little title called Quake.

 

Someone may consider that more of an exception, but it still shows that evolving a game through prototyping (which is generally coding/testing) can lead to drastic changes of game design, depending upon the feel of the game. And as that shows, it's not a bad thing either.

 

I'll edit/add to this  this later.. but my first small project should be of some use in showing somethings about me and the small team I'm with.

What approach is your team using when it comes to your pre-coding and pre-testing design stage (what thade calls pen and paper design)? I think you have some interesting opinions on that, and I'm curious to see what will happen once you actually set out to make a game.



#27 SinisterPride   Members   -  Reputation: 210

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:33 AM

First off, I would like to bring in the Moderator who banned Sir Morphia to attention. I've read all his post and have come to the conclussion that he has broken some forum rules but not under purpose bias. There is a language barrier which should have been taken into consideration by whichever Mod took this action. I believe it was done unjustly so, please take this into consideration or relinquish your moderator satus IMMEDIATELY.

 

 

Russian:
 
@ Сэр Морфий: После первого чтения ваших сообщений я должен признать, что я originially думал, что ты человек с плохой словарь, который является, почему я disected ваше сообщение.
 
Прежде всего, я хотел бы принести в модератора, который запретил сэр Морфий внимание. Я прочитал все его сообщение и пришли к conclussion, что он нарушил некоторые правила форума, но не в целях смещения. Существует языковой барьер, который должны были быть приняты во внимание зависимости от того, моделирование приняла это решение. Я считаю, что это было сделано несправедливо поэтому, пожалуйста, примите это во внимание, либо отказаться от ваших модератором степень готовности немедленно.
 
Однако вскоре я понял, после того, как ваш третий пост или так, чтобы вы были членс 2009 года. Это означает две вещи для меня: во-первых, вы избегали проблемы в течение длительного времени это может означать одно из двух: либо Вы, действительно хорошо скрывать вы огнемет или вы законным членом форумах языковой барьер. Я считаю, что это последний. Я пытаюсь получить "больше" модератор внимание с этого поста в надежде поднимая запрет статус и будет пытаться связаться с Вами лично с тем, что означает, я считаю, это возможно. Если я неправильно и упустил некоторые вы действиям (в чем я сомневаюсь у меня есть), то мне жаль тратить время anyones. Я верю, что вы умны и ценная часть этого форума, хотя, который является частью того, почему я ответил на такой длины, чтобы защитить вас, а также ответить так подробно и усилий. Я предположил вашим родным является русский языктак что я перевести это в надежде на смягчение ограничений нашей языковой барьер.

 

English:

 

@Sir Morphia: Upon first reading your messages I must admit I originially thought you were someone with a poor vocabulary which is why I disected your message.

 

However, I soon realized after your third post or so that you have been a memember since 2009. This meant two things to me: One, you've avoided trouble for a long time which could mean one of  two things; You are either, really good at hiding you're a flamer OR you are a legit member of the forums with a language barrier. I believe it is the latter. I am attempting to gain "greater" moderator attention with this post in hopes of lifting your ban status and will be attempting to contact you personally with whatever means I find possible. If I am incorrect and have missed some of you're actions (which I doubt I have) then I am sorry for wasting anyones time. I do believe you are an intelligent and valuable part of this forum though, which is part of why I have responded at such lengths to defend you as well as reply with so much detail and effort. I surmised your native toungue is Russian so I aim to translate this in hopes of easing the restrictions of our language barrier.

 

I think you are trying to gradually understand me!
Vision of Gameplay as the ChessBoard: it is soonely the word-revolver.
I know people who from UbiSoft , but I did not say that I work in UbiSoft.

 

I'm trying biggrin.png

 

Yes, it will soon be a more common notion if it isn't already. Game Design isn't respected nor is it covered in definition as much as I'd like it to be. "Vision of Gameplay as the ChessBoard" will hopefully some day be the common accepted truth. Design isn't checkers as some here would like to believe, it is akin to Chess. Like design, chess (which is a game of skill which many can play and few will ever master or even be considered skilled at) is beyond the depth some will ever understand.

 

Understood, excuse my misundertanding, I did not see the video.

 

That is, you did not watch the video - you, like most of the other all the same, or more then one computer bots (programs), because of your text is not true.

 

You're right, I responded from my phone that day so I didn't even know there was a video attatched until recently.

 

And I said that we needed to account for AmazonPayments for Kickstater.com

 

Makes sense and I totally agree. This is what you meant by:

 

As of right now to think about KickStater.com :
who have Amazon account - USA and UK (I with UA)

__________

 

would say that I am Freelancer - Independent Manager (yes GameDevIndustry modern companies - just a "modern trash")

 

Ah, this elevates you to "Sir" status in my opinion/eyes lol.. You have far more expierience in the field than I do.

 

In translation: better to act. Will Write one hundred thousand Theme than those in the text and a Zero Result in the End. In EpiEnd none GameProduct and none Money : eating text or other it ?!

 

If I could paraphrase and translate: Actions speak louder than words. You can write a thousand themes (designs/concepts) and in the end have ZERO results. In "EpiEnd and GameProduct"; Not sure what these are honestly and I haven't looked them up yet so I cant offer a full translation/paraphrase but I think it basically means this: "Ideas = No money". This is further supported by "eating text or other it?!". Basically I think you meant that you can't live off of words alone lol

 

What was done on GameDev.net or GameDev.ru : nothing .. tell me again of Orientation of this Forums .

 

I think this counts as slandering/bashing of the forums which might be why you were banned upon first inspection. However, when the language barrier is taken into account I see it differently. You could of simply meant to say something like:

 

Что было сделано на GameDev.net или GameDev.ru: ничего .. скажите мне снова ориентации этой Форум.

 

Which in english probably sounds alot worse. I wouldn't know personally, but I speak multiple languages so I know things get lost in translation and are alot rougher on the cut.

 

Russian:

 

Я надеюсь, это поможет вам сэра морфия, я чувствую личную ответственность за запрет видя, как вы чувствовали себя достаточно сильно о моем посте, чтобы ответить, а затем получить бан. Я надеюсь, что вы ответите скоро мой друг smile.png

 

English:

 

I hope this helps you Sir Morphia, I feel personally responsible for your ban seeing as you felt strongly enough about my post to reply and subsequently get banned. I hope to see you reply soon my friend smile.png


Edited by SinisterPride, 05 February 2013 - 08:55 AM.


#28 thade   Members   -  Reputation: 1652

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:58 AM

First off, I would like to bring in the Moderator who banned Sir Morphia to attention. I've read all his post and have come to the conclussion that he has broken some forum rules but not under purpose bias. There is a language barrier which should have been taken into consideration by whichever Mod took this action. I believe it was done unjustly so, please take this into consideration or relinquish your moderator satus IMMEDIATELY.

I don't know what Mod banned that user (I am not a mod on this site) but if I had to guess, the ban was not due to the poster's hard to understand posts...but due to the completely irrelevant Youtube links he or she kept posting.


I was previously serratemplar; a name I forfeited to share a name with an angry rank-bearing monkey.

http://thadeshammer.wordpress.com/


#29 SinisterPride   Members   -  Reputation: 210

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:29 AM

@Thade: Thats the thing though, when his words are taken into consideration the videos make sense.



#30 thade   Members   -  Reputation: 1652

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:32 AM

Apologies, but they really didn't make any sense at all. They were long weird art films (best case) that didn't present any interfaces or elements of game design whatsoever. What did you see of value in those videos?


I was previously serratemplar; a name I forfeited to share a name with an angry rank-bearing monkey.

http://thadeshammer.wordpress.com/


#31 SinisterPride   Members   -  Reputation: 210

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:47 AM

Well, the video that I saw direcly correlated with his stand on design and artistic view within a project, in my opinion anyway.. I tend to be a fluid thinker and often over analyze things which leads to finding meaning in anything. Isn't always necessarily a good thing though o_O


Edited by SinisterPride, 05 February 2013 - 09:48 AM.





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