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Grappling combat


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#1 Osidlus   Members   -  Reputation: 751

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

Hello there,

I have been toying some time with the game systems for the RPG with lets say realistic approach to combat and modeling a person under emotional and time stress, maybe the most outcome is just for my self learning than anything else. But lets pretend for a while we design a game...

So now the compass shows grappling. As I did strike rule system first there is some lets call it infrastructure done that can be used for the wrestling and ground game and I would like to check how it can handle various situations, just as a reference what is meant by ground game:



As I am rooted in the strike MA I would appreciate any comments on 1. what should a nice encounter have, 2. what choices during grappling you would like to have, 3. would you like to go to the level of techniques or even principles, 4. what are the goals during grappling fight like- utilizing your weight, choking whenever possible etc. 5. are you a grappling guy or a fan?

The system is meant for a turn based combat with non-constant lenght of the turn- the dominating person sets the lenghts of the turn (forces the tempo).


Personally I like the building of the position in GPG and maybe from my sight such a fight is even more strategic than the strike one as there are more predictable steps ahead.

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#2 HonestDuane   Members   -  Reputation: 151

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:27 PM

And you want this over a network?

 

Consider your animation rigging for a second.  Now think of your rigged joints and the degrees of freedom they have. Now modify that by the gear the player wears on a per instance basis.

That is a lot of work.  So what is the simplest version of this you can get working, and where are you hiding the network lag to make sure its playable?



#3 Osidlus   Members   -  Reputation: 751

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:54 PM

Thanks for the reply, yes its kind of network where it is easy to read flexibility, balance, lever efect etc. I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to animate that (would be satisfied with simpler output for certain reasons). I mentioned it is for turn based combat, but when thinking about where to sink lags than I would say that not each move is "cutting" there are also small moves that makes preparation for the "cutting moves" and these can be set based on the characters properties and done automatically to slow down the pacing from controlling point of view. So before player choses the action he might get some advantages for some move based on the characters capabilities and offcourse previous state.

#4 HonestDuane   Members   -  Reputation: 151

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:43 PM

So map it out in  a state diagram.



#5 Iron Chef Carnage   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1840

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:33 AM

A state diagram is a good place to start.  Make sure you can make a game out of it before you invest the considerable resources required to represent it to the player.

 

I'm going to call this an impossible task, because of the proliferation of options.  Even assuming that you got the system and interface perfectly modeled and intuitive to the player, asking someone to play such a game would require them to get good at the actual grappling contest, making your game (this subsection of it, even) as opaque and intimidating as a top level flight simulator.  Maybe Royce Gracie could play and enjoy the game, but your average audience member is going to feel like a ten-year-old playing career mode in Madden:  He'll be bad at the 10% he can make sense of, and just be pushing buttons at random for the other 90%.

 

Try to boil the contest down to some rudimentary elements.  Whip up that state diagram and try to limit the actions in each state to a handful, so your players don't have to think about the exact positioning of all their limbs at all times.  Maybe the dominant fighter has options to press his advantage with some direct attacks, to protect his advantage with some control moves and to disengage and transition to a striking fight.  The dominated player can defend against attacks, attempt to take control by shifting to a state where he's dominant, or escape and transition to a striking fight.  In terms of basic game dynamics, it would wind up looking like a blend of rock/paper/scissors with dice rolls and a tug-of-war, where you're competing for the resource of dominance and then spending that dominance to play out the larger contest of attrition.

 

So if my fighter has good reach and is long-winded, I'll prefer to keep my feet and stay mobile, while a stockier combatant might prefer to take the fight to the ground and keep it there as much as possible.  I'd be willing to absorb a few hits or spend some stamina to disentangle myself and get back to where I can land punches, while he'd be willing to charge through my attacks and grapple with me.  If he puts me on the ground, I might not even try to compete with him, and instead direct my efforts toward getting away, accepting that he'll get some good shots in while I worm my way out of the situation.  If he sees me trying that, he'll devote some of his time and energy to delaying my escape, allowing him to do more damage before I resume kicking him in the teeth.

 
Will your fights have referees to keep it fair and clean?  My only real hand-to-hand training was at a police academy, and our instructors advised us to always cheat and always win, so our escalation continuum went from verbal commands to lethal force, and our training at physical restraint included joint strikes, eye gouges, metal sticks and shotguns.  Obviously MMA fighters are always making an effort to avoid maiming one another.  Will your RPG have similar restrictions?

 

Balancing will, of course, be a nightmare, and you'll have to ensure that the choices a player makes are numerous and varied enough to allow for strategy, without becoming so myriad that it turns into a guessing game.  Turn-based is a good idea, and I love your idea of having the turns themselves change length based on the situation, giving another incentive for a player to keep control of the bout.  I think a lot can be done with that idea.



#6 Osidlus   Members   -  Reputation: 751

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:44 AM

Thank you for the comments. It is interesting to hear the game concepts from the other person and find it is not totally out. As for the choices during a bout, I have some tips. But I would love to hear it from your mouth guys :-). Will see how it goes in the sequences and than I will take a decent pause and will get back to it and check if that has an essence of fighting how I feel it.

The setting where I would use it is low fantasy, so no refs :-). But maybe the beauty of such a fighting would be in a game with refs.

#7 Yrjö P.   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1412

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:30 PM

... realistic approach to combat ...

As I am rooted in the strike MA I would appreciate any comments on 1. what should a nice encounter have, 2. what choices during grappling you would like to have, 3. would you like to go to the level of techniques or even principles, 4. what are the goals during grappling fight like- utilizing your weight, choking whenever possible etc. 5. are you a grappling guy or a fan?

Key points for combat grappling are
- accessing/controlling weapons (via retaining freedom of hands, controlling hands)
- balance, staying on your feet, getting off the ground ASAP
- protecting/attacking the head, and to a lesser degree the body

Fail to control the opponent's hands, and you'll get stabbed before you can even see them draw. Fail at balance, and you get tackled, toppled or dragged around, possibly get stunned by the impact on the ground or into an object, and then the opponent can stomp you or gets to draw. Fail to protect your head against blows, or your midsection against powerful blows like knees, and you'll be knocked out or stunned long enough for the opponent to finish you off.

For combat, you can forget a lot of the technique you see in sport MMA. On the other hand, some techniques that are pointless in the ring become lethal. For instance, a hold that takes lots of endurance from you and immobilizes both yourself and the opponent for ten seconds is very much effective if an ally of yours can reach you and stab the opponent in under ten seconds.

#8 emcconnell   Members   -  Reputation: 925

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:54 AM

Being an amateur MMA fighter, I have thought about a BJJ/ADCC game for years. Basically a lot of fighting games boil down to "some rock paper scissors" mechanic. Block beats Attacks, Throws beat Blocks, Attacks beat Throws, etc. Then expand from there.

 

From grappling it could go Submission (i.e. Kimura, Armbar, Heel Hook, etc) beats Position Change (attempting to go from half guard to guard on defense, side mount to mount on offense), Position Change beats Sweeps (reversals such as going from guard to mount), and Sweeps beat Submission attempts. Of course there are a lot of timing issues and positions to consider but this is a great way of dumbing down grappling like street fighter has dumb down stand up.

 

In SF2, spacing and "footsies" are the most important part of top player's game. In grappling gaining an advantageous position should be the most important part. Disrupting balance could your mechanic of "pressuring your opponent to making a move", as moving and gaining position on the stage in street fighter forces your opponent to react. So trying to off-base your opponent is an attempt to "open them up" for a position change or sweep, but if your opponent sees this coming they could pass your guard or something to that extent.

 

Then for advance play mechanics you could get into chaining submissions. For example, I have your back and go for a choke, you defend and I immediately switch it to an armbar from the back knowing when you would time your choke defense. There needs to be advance play in that dedicated players can use their knowledge of reading situations to easily defeat lesser skilled players.

 

 

This is just my two cents. The animations and model positions would be the greatest challenge. I suggest building it out in text first, as just like real grappling, so it can be done with the eyes closed.



#9 Osidlus   Members   -  Reputation: 751

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 02:53 PM

Interesting stuff, I will go throught that many times I think... thanks

#10 lithos   Members   -  Reputation: 413

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 05:33 PM

Toribash.   Essentially you're given a dude with muscles and control them individually.

 

 

While I know it's not anywhere near what you were thinking about still something fun to mention.



#11 Osidlus   Members   -  Reputation: 751

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:52 PM

as there is multiple joints manipulation it can be inspiring how to make it user friendlier. Is the challenge in Toribash in executing what you want through the adjusting joints as well as to surprise and predict the oponent?

#12 Yrjö P.   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1412

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:05 AM

Toribash is all about puzzling out how to accomplish movements. I would guess that the majority of Toribashers use it as a sandbox, not as a game. No help to what you want to accomplish.

I think you might be able to capture at least some flavor of realistic grappling with a relatively simple state machine. One state could consist of a minimal set of variables coarsely defining grips (e.g. no grip / opponent's arm / opponent's neck / holding a weapon), balance, momentum, stunned or not. Then a carefully considered set of possible actions available based on the state. I'd definitely recommend using double-blind selection for the actions, because combat is not "you go, I go". So both characters select an action, and transition to next state depends on both choices (plus character stats plus random if you like).

#13 Osidlus   Members   -  Reputation: 751

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

Hey, thank you Stroppy Katamari for your will to help. Yes, there is probably nothing to distil from Toribash. But somehow it can enrich the perspective and finally you don't know if you were actually inspired.

I agree that grip or hold is a big thing to the game. One thing that I have given up is to have it as a 2D with some board game like mechanic, the game would lose too much with such an abstraction and probably that is even what we do not want.

As for the turn based decomposition, that is exactly how it is mentioned (each player is to set his desired action and time scale-lenght of turn and than bhammm!!)

#14 Norman Barrows   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2308

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 08:11 AM

I'd base it on greco-roman wrestling.

 

since its turn based, you don't have to worry about drawing or transmitting packets in realtime.

 

you have positions: on my feet, on the ground but on top, on the ground on the bottom, on my stomach, on my back, etc.

 

you'd have moves: arm grab, leg grab, trip with leg, double arm grab (grapple or bearhug), throws, etc. different moves would be possible based on your position (can't do a throw when your on the bottom).

 

you'd also probably track something like who has who's limbs pinned. IE your on top and have my right arm pinned, so i cant do any right arm moves, until i succeed in an escape move for that arm.

 

moves would result in classic wrestling stuff: esacpes, takedowns, reversals, and pins. esacpes and pins would probably be tracked  on a limb by limb basis. 

 

obviously there would be no illegal moves. kick and punch would both be allowable moves. the goal would probably be to choke, kick or punch the opponent into unconsciousness.

 

and just like UFC, the kick or leg trip followed by the pin 2 legs followed by repeated punches to the head, and you've got your own little octagon simulator!

 

to maintain situational awareness, a 3rd person view would probably work better than first person.

 

if you want to get really serious about it you'd model special killzones, like kidney and windpipe and nosejam punches that can seriously injure or kill in a single blow. and don't forget the classic kick 'em in the balls!


Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1989"

rocklandsoftware.net

 

PLAY CAVEMAN NOW!

http://rocklandsoftware.net/beta.php

 

 





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