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funny idea for an ann game


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#1 rouncer   Members   -  Reputation: 291

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:47 AM

What if the inputs of the neural network were not just an enemy character in the game, but inputs for how the screen scrolls and zooms, enemies are spawned, enemies react, die, what happens to the player when he touches different things...  basicly every single activity that happens during the game.

I was thinking you could train it all with backpropagation, you actually hand feed the neural network the motions of the game as if it was playing, then after it is trained it should be able to run the game for you. smile.png

 

It would be like a little man placing the game for you as you went through it. 


Edited by rouncer, 02 March 2013 - 11:47 AM.


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#2 Álvaro   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 13311

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:30 PM

Maybe you should get some actual experience with ANNs before you get too excited about their possibilities. Start by writing ANNs that learn basic things, like a linear combination of things to predict another (an ANN with a single neuron, which is like linear regression), then XOR... Then you can try to reproduce the results of other people with things like character recognition. By now you'll realize that backpropagation has lots of issues and doesn't get you too far. You can then learn something about support vector machines, deep belief networks, etc. Then go back and read your own post above, and see if it still makes sense.

#3 kazisami   Members   -  Reputation: 558

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:57 AM

A good starting point might be Perceptron, then Hopfield and then FeedForward. And in the mean time you will learn different training and error calculation algorithm like- hebb's rule, delta rule and after that, Backpropagation.

 

Good Luck.


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#4 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2472

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:49 AM

Maybe you should get some actual experience with ANNs before you get too excited about their possibilities. Start by writing ANNs that learn basic things, like a linear combination of things to predict another (an ANN with a single neuron, which is like linear regression), then XOR... Then you can try to reproduce the results of other people with things like character recognition. By now you'll realize that backpropagation has lots of issues and doesn't get you too far. You can then learn something about support vector machines, deep belief networks, etc. Then go back and read your own post above, and see if it still makes sense.

 

Why do I feel like this is another example of "magic word" syndrome? That the OP is fascinated with "ANN" and keeps saying it over and over because he thinks it sounds cool despite having very little knowledge about what it really does or the (more suitable?) alternatives?


Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC

Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Co-founder of the AI Game Programmers Guild
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI

Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play

"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#5 rouncer   Members   -  Reputation: 291

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:26 AM

what about natural motion?  that exists does it not?



#6 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2472

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:40 PM

what about natural motion?  that exists does it not?

 

Not sure what you are getting at there.


Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC

Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Co-founder of the AI Game Programmers Guild
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI

Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play

"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#7 rouncer   Members   -  Reputation: 291

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:57 PM

Well it works like natural motion... except instead of controlling one character, it controls multiple characters. (and the camera)

I dont see how if natural motion can work, this cant...



#8 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2472

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:23 PM

That's not the point. Your argument is very much like, "well, you can use a hammer on a nail, so why can't you use a hammer on a screw as well?" Right tool for the job, sir.

 

Is your goal to accomplish a gameplay trick or is your goal to use an ANN to do... something?


Edited by IADaveMark, 03 March 2013 - 03:24 PM.

Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC

Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Co-founder of the AI Game Programmers Guild
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI

Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play

"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#9 conq   Members   -  Reputation: 338

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:31 PM

I believe he wants to use an ANN for all of the game's logic.

 

I don't believe he understands the point (If any) of ANN's.



#10 Tournicoti   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 683

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:43 PM

I believe he wants to use an ANN for all of the game's logic.

 

I don't believe he understands the point (If any) of ANN's.

So what's the point (if any) of ANN ?



#11 conq   Members   -  Reputation: 338

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:21 PM

Personally, I think they're better then using a pure state based approach for strategy games' fight or flight decisions, but it really depends on the complexity.. Other then that, I can't think of somewhere where it's easiest, or worthwhile at all to implement something like this.

 

Maybe after it's been explored for a while and there's a multitude of third party API's to work with them easier, assuming it's worth creating those (Which I doubt it is).



#12 rouncer   Members   -  Reputation: 291

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:57 PM

so you dont like exploring new ideas, youd rather everyone else do that for you.  

to each their own i guess.


Edited by rouncer, 03 March 2013 - 05:58 PM.


#13 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2472

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:20 PM

so you dont like exploring new ideas, youd rather everyone else do that for you.  

to each their own i guess.

 

And with this, you have jumped the proverbial shark.

 

ANNs are not even remotely "new". They are also hopelessly over-hyped. They are a simple pattern-matching algorithm poorly equipped to handle most of the situational reasoning tasks necessary for game AI or many other kinds of AI applications. Even in the traditional machine learning arena, NNs are somewhat considered passe since there are far better alternatives.

 

But I see you don't like researching ideas beyond what you Obviously Know Is Best. You'd rather everyone else do that for you.

 

To each his, own I guess.


Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC

Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Co-founder of the AI Game Programmers Guild
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI

Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play

"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#14 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2472

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:24 PM

Personally, I think they're better then using a pure state based approach for strategy games' fight or flight decisions, but it really depends on the complexity.. Other then that, I can't think of somewhere where it's easiest, or worthwhile at all to implement something like this.

 

Actually, while I agree that pure state based approaches in strategy games are a problem, a NN isn't the answer really. When dealing with a huge influx of variable data such as we have in more complex situations, a utility-based approach is by far preferable. As with a NN, there are a ton of numbers being balanced and played against one another. The difference is, in a utiltiy-based system, you know what those numbers are doing with their relationships to each other. An NN, by its very nature, is opaque. You can't even lift the lid and point to something and say, "and this is why it made that decision". There is no such entity to point at in an NN. It just comes out the meat grinder.

 

They're both number crunchers... one method is based on intelligent design -- the other on hope and fairies.


Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC

Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Co-founder of the AI Game Programmers Guild
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI

Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play

"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#15 rouncer   Members   -  Reputation: 291

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:42 AM

i dont agree with this, i dont think you know what your talking about.



#16 LorenzoGatti   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2702

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:51 AM

What if the inputs of the neural network were not just an enemy character in the game, but inputs for how the screen scrolls and zooms, enemies are spawned, enemies react, die, what happens to the player when he touches different things...  basicly every single activity that happens during the game.

I was thinking you could train it all with backpropagation, you actually hand feed the neural network the motions of the game as if it was playing, then after it is trained it should be able to run the game for you. 

I don't want to add to the previous heartfelt advice against neural network misapplication, because stubbornly defying contrary opinions might still be a useful learning experience; this description of what you want to do is much more worrying than the risk of wasting time by trying an inadequate technique, because you don't want to try a technique, you want a magic wand. Wishful thinking and learning rarely mix.

 

While trying to develop a bot to play your game is a fine objective, you don't seem to approach it on a sound problem-solving basis, hoping instead that applying a neural network is going to be easy and effective: this sort of a priori preference for a certain solution is the opposite of good engineering and design, and it would be equally bad in the case of a good technique.

 

You don't even state clearly what sort of game you are thinking of, neglecting the analysis of what an AI for your game needs to be able to do and what are the difficulties and non-difficulties in such tasks, which is the first step in choosing appropriate AI architectures and algorithms and/or modifying game rules to make the AI perform better (for example, simplifying game state to reduce the amount of training needed and facilitate unsupervised trial and error learning). Do you expect this work to disappear?


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#17 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2472

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:47 AM

Did anyone catch a whiff of troll? dry.png


Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC

Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Co-founder of the AI Game Programmers Guild
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI

Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play

"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"




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