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This is the future of video games? No wonder I've been buying so many board games lately.


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#61 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:43 PM

Until then, all of us losers with no stable internet should shut the fuck up.
Your whole post was a total bullfuck.

This is why it's hard for me to take these arguments seriously. Heaven forbid we actually try to have a polite discussion.

I never once said it wasn't shitty. I said the internet is becoming pervasive and it's totally shortsighted to expect games or any piece of technology not to adapt to that.
 

I don't want to sound offensive but it is the slightly naive statements like those from way2lazy2care

What about my statements was naive? That internet access is becoming an expectation rather than a luxury? Enlighten me.

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#62 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2111

Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:58 PM

becoming != has become

does it really need explanation? Adopting to something that's not achieved yet?

 

Sorry for being a prick, but your post and some of your other posts annoy me, because you seem to have the ignorant "american" style, you doesn't seem to be aware that other parts of the world also exist (and obviously game studios are like that too).

 

Okay, if I'm not in the USA than why I want to play with recent computer games anyway?

 

Plus you seem to always act like the Devil's advocate (and not doing it that well...).


Edited by szecs, 07 March 2013 - 02:01 PM.


#63 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:12 PM

becoming != has become

We're nearing the point where the internet can be thought of similarly. As there are fewer and fewer places where one can be expected not to have internet connections there are fewer and fewer reasons not to require them.

Okay, if I'm not in the USA than why I want to play with recent computer games anyway?
 
Plus you seem to always act like the Devil's advocate (and not doing it that well...).

I don't live in the US. The US isn't exactly the pinnacle of internet quality either.

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#64 Luckless   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1766

Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:15 PM

Until then, all of us losers with no stable internet should shut the fuck up.
Your whole post was a total bullfuck.

This is why it's hard for me to take these arguments seriously. Heaven forbid we actually try to have a polite discussion.

I never once said it wasn't shitty. I said the internet is becoming pervasive and it's totally shortsighted to expect games or any piece of technology not to adapt to that.
 

>I don't want to sound offensive but it is the slightly naive statements like those from way2lazy2care

What about my statements was naive? That internet access is becoming an expectation rather than a luxury? Enlighten me.

 

 

Adapt to it? Sure, make use of more networking functions, encourage more social interactions, etc. But when a game is still 90% or more single player with no need, want, or desire to interact over a network, then what sense is there in 100% requiring you to have internet access ALL THE BLOODY TIME?

 

And the naive bit about your statement is the fact that there are many reasons one might not have internet access, or access to the games servers, but still want to play the game they have legally purchased.

 

Lets list a few:

1. EA's servers are down for whatever reason.

2. My internet is down due to technical issues, and I want to play a game while I wait for a tech to come out and climb the pole and fix it for the fifth time this year.

3. Maybe I've lost my job, so I cut non-essentials at home, but still want to play a game I legally own and have already paid for...

4. Working up north with limited sat-based internet reserved for official data only. (Been there, done that, minor frost bite was enjoyed by all. Getting an internet connect far above the treeline can be surprisingly annoying)

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against semi-regular 'check-ins' on a resonable basis, and I have nothing against games heavily focused on their multiplayer (such as MMOs). What I have a problem with is games that are basically single player expecting me to only ever play while connected to their server, simply because some bean counter is paranoid that I might not have paid for their game I bought from them.

 

Hell, given that apparently there are reversed engineered WOW servers out there, it wouldn't surprise me if someone will eventually come up with their own SimCity Server client. And guess which one I will be more interested in using: The company's official server, or my own private one?


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#65 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:30 PM

And the naive bit about your statement is the fact that there are many reasons one might not have internet access, or access to the games servers, but still want to play the game they have legally purchased.

I am aware, which is why I agreed with you in my previous posts.
 

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against semi-regular 'check-ins' on a resonable basis

Just on this, to my knowledge this is how it works now. You need to be online to log in, then you need to be online to accept trade from the world market or switch cities I think. I haven't lost connection during a game, but I've seen coworkers lose connection and continue playing.

It would be cool if you could store regions locally just so you could switch cities and do regional trade though.

#66 SymLinked   Members   -  Reputation: 852

Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:52 PM

As long as people keep purchasing these games then it won't change, simple as that. smile.png

People moan and whine and behave, but why would the publishers care? All they care about is sales. They couldn't care less what you think if you still buy their trash.
I bought D3 assuming they learned something from WoW, and man.. I'm never doing that again. Don't get me started on D3 (I played it for 1 month or so, while D2 lasted years and years..) but I won't ever buy a game that requires an online connection again unless it's a purely multiplayer game.

Early adopter and we should "accept" launch issues is just BS. I shouldn't have to accept anything for a singleplayer game. I was going to make a metaphor but I suppose it wouldn't help.

Their loss!


Edited by SymLinked, 07 March 2013 - 02:54 PM.


#67 Luckless   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1766

Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:18 PM

And the naive bit about your statement is the fact that there are many reasons one might not have internet access, or access to the games servers, but still want to play the game they have legally purchased.

I am aware, which is why I agreed with you in my previous posts.
 

>Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against semi-regular 'check-ins' on a resonable basis

Just on this, to my knowledge this is how it works now. You need to be online to log in, then you need to be online to accept trade from the world market or switch cities I think. I haven't lost connection during a game, but I've seen coworkers lose connection and continue playing.

It would be cool if you could store regions locally just so you could switch cities and do regional trade though.

 

If you remain offline long enough, you get kicked.

You can have data corruption due to exiting after playing while offline. I became out of sync, and then EA decided to overwrite part of my data later when their system detected something was weird.

You can't play if the servers aren't up to log in

You can't play if you have no internet access on which to log in at the time.

 

I have used lots of software with 'phone-home' security functions, and generally I can go a week or more without being impacted by my lack of a connection.


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#68 GaldorPunk   Members   -  Reputation: 995

Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:44 PM

I don’t understand why companies like EA continue to use these draconian DRM schemes that just drive away potential customers. The game will be pirated, all the DRM does is slow down the pirates in the short term, and make piracy even more appealing in the long run because people won’t be stopped from playing a pirated version if they have a bad internet connection or when EA’s servers are down.

 

There’s a definite trend of attempting to fight piracy by turning games into an always online service that the customer pays for the privilege of using, rather than a product that he actually owns. (although being a "service" makes you wonder why people will pay for a service that doesn’t even work) In a singleplayer game, this is completely unacceptable and customers ought to boycott any game that does it. Another big problem, even besides not being able to play is the potential side effects these anti-piracy measures are having on gameplay. Are the very small map sizes and pseudo-multiplayer “social” elements there because of the DRM’s limitations, because if they are I would argue that the core gamplay is suffering because of it. Even without the always online DRM, I still wouldn’t have bought the game because of what I consider to be its “dumbed down” gameplay.

 

It’s also concerning, but not unexpected that EA would have several packs of day 1 DLC, which really should have been included in the actual game.



#69 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 20331

Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:21 PM

It’s also concerning, but not unexpected that EA would have several packs of day 1 DLC, which really should have been included in the actual game.

This one always makes me laugh.

 

 

For some reason if a company sells DLC on opening day many customers feel it is their divinely ordained right that it should have been included in the base price.

 

The extra DLC is the superheros and supervillans stuff.

 

SimCity has never had that kind of component.  I've logged about 10 hours of gameplay on it so far and the game feels complete without any superhero stuff.  I can imagine it may make life easier in the event of a disaster.  Maybe if I took one of the opportunities like the fireworks display or the block party the superhero would help clean up the mess?

 

It is upselling, nothing more or less than that.

 

DLC is not usually important stuff they left out.  Usually it is fun bits of content that can be added to an already complete game experience.

 

Again, this is absolutely not unique to games.  "Would you like fries and a drink with that?", "Would you like that in the Extra Jumbo size?" "Would you like the disc with bonus features and deleted scenes?".


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#70 Rakilonn   Members   -  Reputation: 421

Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:25 PM

The problem comes from the mass which doesn't care about the industry and buys products even if they have crappy "features" like that, and also from players which think "you have to adapt/follow".

 

It's bad to think this way, because producers can do whatever they want, screw everything and it will still become "the standard" just like little DLC.

 

Don't get me wrong : DLC are not bad in themselves. But nowadays they are quite a lot of games with little ( and expensive DLC ). For example DmC has now 3 DLC and 1 which add a new character : Vergil. And I want to precise that Devil May Cry 3, you had an extra character if you finish the game. Yes it's also Vergil and that was free. And if this type of things happens, it's precisely because crappy DLC work and so why producer shouldn't do them to earn more money ?

 

(I had also to precise that there is a free DLC for DmC which is the Bloody Palace, but it was also available and free in Devil May Cry 3 so ....)

 

 

That's remind me the fact that EA want to make micro transactions available for every game, and the problem will be the same : if it will work (and it will work if everyone thinks this way) micro transaction will part of more and more games for a long time just like little DLC and internet connection.


Edited by Rakilonn, 07 March 2013 - 04:33 PM.


#71 GaldorPunk   Members   -  Reputation: 995

Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:48 PM

It’s also concerning, but not unexpected that EA would have several packs of day 1 DLC, which really should have been included in the actual game.

This one always makes me laugh.

 

 

For some reason if a company sells DLC on opening day many customers feel it is their divinely ordained right that it should have been included in the base price.

 

The extra DLC is the superheros and supervillans stuff.

 

SimCity has never had that kind of component.  I've logged about 10 hours of gameplay on it so far and the game feels complete without any superhero stuff.  I can imagine it may make life easier in the event of a disaster.  Maybe if I took one of the opportunities like the fireworks display or the block party the superhero would help clean up the mess?

 

It is upselling, nothing more or less than that.

 

DLC is not usually important stuff they left out.  Usually it is fun bits of content that can be added to an already complete game experience.

 

Again, this is absolutely not unique to games.  "Would you like fries and a drink with that?", "Would you like that in the Extra Jumbo size?" "Would you like the disc with bonus features and deleted scenes?".

Also there's a unique park which apparently provides actual bonuses to your city, as well as the British, French, and German skins for buildings, and these types of multiple skins used to be included for free in Sim City games, along with editors for making your own building skins. The problem with day one DLC is that the publisher is removing content from the original game and requiring an additional purchase to unlock it. If you don't care about the extra stuff that's fine, but the people who do want it now have to pay much more than it's worth because it is DLC and not built into the normal price. Additionally, selling content DLC like this is undoubtedly one of the main reasons why there is no modding support in the new Sim City, again a strong argument about why this kind of DLC is bad for the consumer.



#72 Khaiy   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1342

Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:02 PM

Ugh, let's not have this devolve into another DLC thread. Before moving on I'll mention that if the game isn't working properly on release day then there is not much justification for having spent time creating DLC available at launch rather than, you know, having the game function.

 

Back on topic, I can't stand a requirement that I be online to play a single-player game. It adds no benefits to me as a player (I don't care about having achievements in an online showcase to show off to others), introduces a lot of potential problems (as have been noted above), and adds ongoing maintenance costs to the game which divert sales revenues away from actual game development.

 

There's something to be said for a connection requirement for DRM, but one of the most consistent things I hear about this is that DRM is that it protects sales during a crucial, brief post-release period (I hear around two weeks). With such a short period, every day's delay or postponed/ruined play session due to server side problems or anything else beyond the game-buyer's control become far less excusable: the publisher protects sales income by deploying a less than functional product to consumers who are following the rules. No one really knows how many sales are lost to piracy anyhow, but EA has lost yet another sale to me as a direct result of this scheme.



#73 Shannon Barber   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1362

Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:38 PM

And this is the trend developers are pushing for? To piss me off enough that I declare to hell with their product, and have called up a friend to see if she and her roommate wants to play Carcassonne The City with me?

 

Just Electronic Arts.  There used to be a game developer called "Hasboro Interactive" and we boycotted them and now they are gone.


Edited by Shannon Barber, 07 March 2013 - 09:39 PM.

- The trade-off between price and quality does not exist in Japan. Rather, the idea that high quality brings on cost reduction is widely accepted.-- Tajima & Matsubara

#74 kuramayoko10   Members   -  Reputation: 386

Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:41 PM

That's good because it's a great time to be in board games. Between a general increase in quality and kickstarter making a crap load of board games viable it's quite honestly one of the best times to be in board games since I've been playing them.

For anyone interested in getting into them, Tabletop is a great web series that will give you good overviews of board games that might interest you.

Haha... I was going to post it here too.

 

About the DRM discussion.... It is quite frustating I know, but there is always one hacker group that will break our software.

Those big corporations know that and they should have learned by now that making the DRM Wall wider and taller doesn't work.

They are blocking the legitimate customers and letting pirates go through.

 

This is not recent though. Even owning games like Diablo2 and AgeOfEmpires2, I had to download a crack version to play with NoCD.

More than a decade has passed, technology evolved a bunch and still: Diablo3 was cracked (even before release); Max Payne 3 was cracked; SimCity will be cracked.


Edited by kuramayoko10, 07 March 2013 - 09:43 PM.

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#75 CC Ricers   Members   -  Reputation: 623

Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:12 PM

Amazon has pulled the physical copies from their store. Undoubtedly they want to avoid the hassle of having their return policy being used massively. This has turned out to be quite a disaster. Some speculate that EA has become the current mess that it is under the present leadership of Gibeau and Riccitello.


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#76 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 29546

Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:50 PM

Apparently asking EA for refunds is not going well.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEvc-ozCIAAJrfy.jpg:large

 

First they offer refunds to disgruntled customers, then take back those words after too many people take them up on that offer:

http://i.imgur.com/ktqJ8Zq.png

 

In Australia, if you take home any product and it doesn't perform as advertised, you're legally entitled to an unconditional refund. They would have to warn about server outages on the box to get out of it.

 

On the last console game that I shipped, there were some disgruntled customers asking for a refund, which the publisher was refusing. Our CEO (the developer, who makes no money off sales and has nothing to do with selling the game) stepped up and offered to refund anyone out of his own pocket, just because good-will is a powerful thing.

 

EA has already won the award of "the worst company in America" and "the most hated company in America" before... they could use a bit of good-will...


Edited by Hodgman, 07 March 2013 - 10:55 PM.


#77 CC Ricers   Members   -  Reputation: 623

Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:16 AM

Apparently asking EA for refunds is not going well.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEvc-ozCIAAJrfy.jpg:large

 

First they offer refunds to disgruntled customers, then take back those words after too many people take them up on that offer:

http://i.imgur.com/ktqJ8Zq.png

 

Is that legal? Do you have to accept a new Terms of Service during that span of time?


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#78 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8533

Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:31 AM

Apparently asking EA for refunds is not going well.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEvc-ozCIAAJrfy.jpg:large

 

First they offer refunds to disgruntled customers, then take back those words after too many people take them up on that offer:

http://i.imgur.com/ktqJ8Zq.png

 

In Australia, if you take home any product and it doesn't perform as advertised, you're legally entitled to an unconditional refund. They would have to warn about server outages on the box to get out of it.

 

On the last console game that I shipped, there were some disgruntled customers asking for a refund, which the publisher was refusing. Our CEO (the developer, who makes no money off sales and has nothing to do with selling the game) stepped up and offered to refund anyone out of his own pocket, just because good-will is a powerful thing.

 

EA has already won the award of "the worst company in America" and "the most hated company in America" before... they could use a bit of good-will...

 

I guess it helps if you invoke consumer laws... http://i.imgur.com/VEJIVmk.jpg.. remember online customer service is almost always outsourced (and sometimes you even get bots) so if you want to get any sort of help it's better to call, otherwise your only option is to pretty much threaten the representative. Of course, nobody likes doing that, and it shows the sad state of EA's customer ethics.

 

lol @ the security question, too.


The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

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#79 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 29546

Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:52 AM

Is that legal? Do you have to accept a new Terms of Service during that span of time?

Refunds aren't dictated by a terms of service, they're dictated by local consumer laws. Companies can choose to go beyond the legal minimums if they feel like it.

e.g. many clothing stores offer "change of mind" refunds, which are a nicety that's not required by law, but they could abolish such policies at any time.

#80 Rakilonn   Members   -  Reputation: 421

Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:58 AM

Ugh, let's not have this devolve into another DLC thread.

 
Of course not. I just wanted to illustrate why the quote bellow is wrong. ( And as I said, DLC are not a problem in themselves )
 


What the flow of events Should have been:
Server is down: Ah, sorry, you will have to manage your city with whatever external data you had at the last server sync. Your local save will be synced up with the server as soon as we are back online. It won't be as fun, or cool, but you will still be able to get some enjoyment from the game.

I'd agree with that, but that's the way it always works as new technology becomes pervasive. [...]


Let everything be part of the standard is not a good thing.

Edited by Rakilonn, 08 March 2013 - 06:06 AM.





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