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Women vs Tropes in Video Games


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#61 AniMerrill   Members   -  Reputation: 203

Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:55 AM

But this might be a good time to mention that the only thing that has gone into my stomach in the last 3 days is 50%-vol (not proof) Vodka, and I should probably just remove myself from the conversation. Even drunk I can see I am saying a few idiotic things.

 

I can respect this. I too have not had food for days and instead... had alcohol. Ah the life of a starving artist.


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#62 IncidentRay   Members   -  Reputation: 154

Posted 10 March 2013 - 12:57 PM

Why turn this at the extreme case ? For what I know most fathers and mothers say that the best thing that happens in their live is the coming of their little babies. So yes the live is more fun when there are men and women. 

 

This is certainly true.  However, I don't think it's what L. Spiro meant to imply.



#63 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 933

Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:15 PM

And we return to my original point.
Why am I the least-bothered by this video?

 

You're the least bothered because you're the only one that is looking at this from the perspective of "feminist issues are a real thing that need to be talked about." Duh. Obviously. That's not an opinion, that's an objective fact that only the most bigoted would disagree with (which, yeah, a lot of them are on the internet). Honestly its shameful that in a modern, first world society we still can't completely grasp the fact "Oh hey, we're all the same species and need each other to survive... we should treat everyone by the same standard."

 

The thing a lot of people are upset about isn't that she's talking about feminist issues. The thing people are upset that this was the first taste of what she planned to do with $16k after 6 months. Btw, I literally looked up "roles of women in video games" or something similar on YouTube and found a much more interesting (albeit a bit more amateur) video where someone was talking about this very subject. I don't care that she's a woman, or that she has an idea I generally agree with: I'm angry that someone was basically able to make it rain with a shallow business pitch (I remember seeing it once before it was over) and this is all they have to show for it.

 

If she wants to make a documentary, fine, make a documentary. But if all the backers got was like... a newsroom shot while she spouted sparse facts overlayed by fancy graphics, then yeah she could have probably done that as a hobby on the side. As someone else mentioned: of course it's great to make money off something you love, but the standards go up when you start asking for money.

 

Also to the person who said it was a good idea to disable comments and ratings because it would "get in the way of the message"... do you realize how hypocritical that statement is? This is a video series intended to INCREASE DISCUSSION ABOUT WOMEN IN VIDEO GAMES, so it's a good idea to discourage any kind of response or free thought on the very video itself? Can I get an English major in here to determine whether or not that's irony... because I think it is.

Actually anything directly related to Sarkeesian would just be bogged down by the scum of the internet. There would have been nothing useful in the comments on the video. She was right to block that, although I don't see why she blocked ratings. As if anyone cares about ratings anyways, so even if it was 10 to 1 bad it doesn't matter.

 

There was some amateur pokemon fan girl I came across accidentally while watching cracked videos that was super better at this than Anita with her degrees is. And surprisingly her super high pitched ideal japanese girl voice didn't get in the way of her point. It did hurt my ears a little though.

 

Someone on another forum claimed Anita needed all that money because licensing Nintendo content, but most youtube videos don't have that and use nintendo stuff anyways.

 

Sadly no one on Gamedev has bothered to answer my question about whether Anita's video falls under fair use or not.



#64 AniMerrill   Members   -  Reputation: 203

Posted 10 March 2013 - 02:00 PM

Someone on another forum claimed Anita needed all that money because licensing Nintendo content, but most youtube videos don't have that and use nintendo stuff anyways.
 
Sadly no one on Gamedev has bothered to answer my question about whether Anita's video falls under fair use or not.

 

From everything I know about it, which I'm not a lawyer so anybody else's opinion could override mine easily, but I think it would fall under fair use. I'm pretty sure that's why people like AVGN, Nostalgia Critic, Ray William Johnson, Let's Players, etc etc etc can have their content up on Youtube and the internet without getting sued. However, Fair Use isn't a inherent right with well defined parameters: what is fair use for one IP may not be fair use for another. Sometimes it can just come down to the quality of the lawyers if a suit is made. Which in turn can often result in a suit never being made in the first place, as in the case of Let's Plays that content can basically be free advertising for the company.

 

So, I think technically its fair use but I could see her using the money to cover her ass if, say, she ever wanted to sell DVDs of it. Or otherwise directly monetize it.

 

Actually anything directly related to Sarkeesian would just be bogged down by the scum of the internet. There would have been nothing useful in the comments on the video. She was right to block that, although I don't see why she blocked ratings. As if anyone cares about ratings anyways, so even if it was 10 to 1 bad it doesn't matter.

 

C'est la vie, that is the internet. Removing comments and ratings completely discourages any constructive discussion in addition to the shit, so this may be a personal opinion... but I don't think restricting the comments of trolls is worth silencing or disengaging those who care about the subject. Free speech is ugly, but it also exposes truth. Not to mention, in the case of this forum right here, there are a lot of good points being made about her delivery/use of random backer money which as a content creator she could have constructively used- even if some of us are raging a bit. However, since this commentary has to be made outside of the scope she can see- or will likely refuse to look at if linked to it -there's no way this criticism can be used constructively, however valid or invalid.

 

There was some amateur pokemon fan girl I came across accidentally while watching cracked videos that was super better at this than Anita with her degrees is. And surprisingly her super high pitched ideal japanese girl voice didn't get in the way of her point. It did hurt my ears a little though.

 

Care to link? Always looking for new people to follow on the YouTubes.


AniMerrill, a.k.a. Ethan Merrill


#65 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 933

Posted 10 March 2013 - 02:29 PM

Someone on another forum claimed Anita needed all that money because licensing Nintendo content, but most youtube videos don't have that and use nintendo stuff anyways.
 
Sadly no one on Gamedev has bothered to answer my question about whether Anita's video falls under fair use or not.

 

From everything I know about it, which I'm not a lawyer so anybody else's opinion could override mine easily, but I think it would fall under fair use. I'm pretty sure that's why people like AVGN, Nostalgia Critic, Ray William Johnson, Let's Players, etc etc etc can have their content up on Youtube and the internet without getting sued. However, Fair Use isn't a inherent right with well defined parameters: what is fair use for one IP may not be fair use for another. Sometimes it can just come down to the quality of the lawyers if a suit is made. Which in turn can often result in a suit never being made in the first place, as in the case of Let's Plays that content can basically be free advertising for the company.

 

So, I think technically its fair use but I could see her using the money to cover her ass if, say, she ever wanted to sell DVDs of it. Or otherwise directly monetize it.

 

 

>Actually anything directly related to Sarkeesian would just be bogged down by the scum of the internet. There would have been nothing useful in the comments on the video. She was right to block that, although I don't see why she blocked ratings. As if anyone cares about ratings anyways, so even if it was 10 to 1 bad it doesn't matter.

 

C'est la vie, that is the internet. Removing comments and ratings completely discourages any constructive discussion in addition to the shit, so this may be a personal opinion... but I don't think restricting the comments of trolls is worth silencing or disengaging those who care about the subject. Free speech is ugly, but it also exposes truth. Not to mention, in the case of this forum right here, there are a lot of good points being made about her delivery/use of random backer money which as a content creator she could have constructively used- even if some of us are raging a bit. However, since this commentary has to be made outside of the scope she can see- or will likely refuse to look at if linked to it -there's no way this criticism can be used constructively, however valid or invalid.

 

I've seen discussion on a dozen forums and about half are worth reading. And since forums are much more easily moderated and tend to have dedicated moderators its much better to talk there. Also if one peruses the proper forums one can be pretty sure of quality of content.

There was some amateur pokemon fan girl I came across accidentally while watching cracked videos that was super better at this than Anita with her degrees is. And surprisingly her super high pitched ideal japanese girl voice didn't get in the way of her point. It did hurt my ears a little though.

 

Care to link? Always looking for new people to follow on the YouTubes.

 

I haven't got links really. It didn't occur to me.



#66 TheChubu   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4070

Posted 10 March 2013 - 02:32 PM

There have been many rumors about how the money was spent. There even was a photo shopped ticket of many expensive shoes saying "This is what anita bought with the kickstarter money".

 

I wouldn't believe that Nintendo licencing fees rumor either.


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#67 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 933

Posted 10 March 2013 - 02:56 PM

There have been many rumors about how the money was spent. There even was a photo shopped ticket of many expensive shoes saying "This is what anita bought with the kickstarter money".

 

I wouldn't believe that Nintendo licencing fees rumor either.

The person who told me is not a rumor monger of some sort though. It wasn't a games forum. They claim they had a good way of knowing, personal experience or something. I dunno.



#68 CRYP7IK   Members   -  Reputation: 880

Posted 10 March 2013 - 04:53 PM

Wow.

I seriously can't believe that on a forum that's supposedly populated by intelligent developers I'm seeing such pathetic defensive posts.

Her points are entirely valid. For any triple A game you can name where we have a strong female lead, I can name TEN where they are damsels or male titilation as leads.

 

How do you know this is populated by intelligent developers? Just because someone is registered to a site, be it reddit, teamliquid or whatever doesn't make them intelligent. This is an annoying...idea that is self perpetuated by the people inside so many communities.

 

That is not a point, but it is a valid observation.


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#69 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 9853

Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:01 PM

Not to mention, in the case of this forum right here, there are a lot of good points being made about her delivery/use of random backer money which as a content creator she could have constructively used- even if some of us are raging a bit.

To my mind, this thread is a prime example of why she is justified in disabling comments. While you all may not be as verbally abusive as the average YouTube commenter, you aren't exactly bashing her any the less for it - and constructive criticism beyond "spend money better" has been few and far between.

 

I would like to think better of our community, but I can't help the feeling that most of you would be responding in a different way, were she either not female, or not working on this particular issue...


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#70 rip-off   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8112

Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:17 PM

I haven't yet had a chance to watch the video in the OP, but I did happen across this interesting video of someone hacking donkey kong to reverse the character roles today.


Edited by rip-off, 10 March 2013 - 05:18 PM.


#71 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2289

Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

How do you know this is populated by intelligent developers?

 

Simple. I've seen evidence of their intelligence in the work they've done, the answers they give and so on. 

 

Are there idiots on here? Of course. But the majority of people I've encountered on this site are smart.


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#72 BladeOfWraith   Members   -  Reputation: 245

Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:15 PM

I can't help the feeling that most of you would be responding in a different way, were she either not female, or not working on this particular issue...

Yep, you nailed it. I'm much more tolerant of long winded, yet vapid cases when it comes to men. That's why I have a poster of Charles Krauthammer in my room.

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#73 Khaiy   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1342

Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:33 PM

I can't help the feeling that most of you would be responding in a different way, were she either not female, or not working on this particular issue...

Yep, you nailed it. I'm much more tolerant of long winded, yet vapid cases when it comes to men. That's why I have a poster of Charles Krauthammer in my room.

 

You say it sarcastically, but there are a lot of people with that exact type of response- Krauthammer poster optional. After all, Charles Krauthammer himself is a wealthy and influential pundit.


Edited by Khaiy, 10 March 2013 - 08:33 PM.


#74 AniMerrill   Members   -  Reputation: 203

Posted 10 March 2013 - 11:47 PM

I can't help the feeling that most of you would be responding in a different way, were she either not female, or not working on this particular issue...

Yep, you nailed it. I'm much more tolerant of long winded, yet vapid cases when it comes to men. That's why I have a poster of Charles Krauthammer in my room.

 
Yeah I'm not really getting this argument. Either swiftcoder isn't reading my posts or is misinterpreting it: I don't give a shit whether she's a man or woman, and I actually do agree with this issue. Personally, ask me any day of the week: I will tell you that this medium needs more female protagonists and it needs to handle them, and all content, a little more maturity instead of always playing to the lowest, visceral denominator for sales numbers. Respectively, consumers need to stop eating the bullshit major publishers keep giving us and ask for something more substantial. A little guilty pleasure is okay, but its sad when its the whole industry. I will say that any day of the week.
 
What I will also say any day of the week is that if you want to come to the internet, accept $160k, and do a subpar video that's supposedly going to be an intellectual analysis and documentary of a major industry issue like this and have regurgitated wikipedia with no further analysis... I'm sorry, people are going to be upset that its a thing. And yeah, a lot of my criticism points back to the money thing... but that's because its POORLY done for that much money. That's what matters. If it was actually engaging, if I learned something new or radically different or saw things from a new perspective, or even saw this as a good way to introduce a newbie to the topic I would not even slightly care how much moolah she was rolling in. But then on top of that she won't even have the commentary about it- I'm sorry, this chick is kind of a hypocrite. And it makes people who backed that campaign looking for something substantial possibly lose interest in backing other, legitimate projects which is something that could legitimately hurt the indie community since there are a LOT of this community that has done great stuff with Kickstarter funds. Not to mention all the people who probably didn't back it, but saw all the coverage OF it and now sees that, yeah, Kickstarter is where unworthy talent goes to get paid apparently. If anything I'm angry because I do, in fact, care about the topic and the platform she earned the money from.
 
And if I seem verbally abusive, please someone tell me. I AM angry about it, but like... not at you guys or anyone on this forum. I was only posting here for discussion's sake, because for the aforementioned reasons I kind of care about the topic in general. So apologies if anyone was offended by the way I said something or how my attitude came across.
 
On a side note:

I haven't yet had a chance to watch the video in the OP, but I did happen across this interesting video of someone hacking donkey kong to reverse the character roles today.

 

This is really cool and kinda sweet some dad did this for their girl. Bravo to that dad.


Edited by AniMerrill, 10 March 2013 - 11:48 PM.

AniMerrill, a.k.a. Ethan Merrill


#75 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 29400

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:12 AM

What I will also say any day of the week is that if you want to come to the internet, accept $160k, and ...

...I AM angry about it....

Why on earth would you be angry?

A youtuber with an existing channel and a large following put their hand up and said, hey guys I want to do this silly little niche project, if I can make 6 grand off it then I'll break even and be able to forge ahead with no worries.

...

Then people in that niche threw 26x more money at her than she needed, making it a very successful business for her, no doubt funding her work for the next many years.

 

So fucking what? She didn't ask for 26x more than her expenses. She didn't promise to expand the project if more money was thrown at her. She has fans, they gave her a lot of money and it has nothing to do with you.

 

People who backed it knew who she was and what kind of content she produced. She was already making these kinds of feminist pop-culture videos at that point, and already had a fan-base -- it's these people that funded her, not you.

 

Are you angry when people win the lottery?

Are you angry when millions of people rush out to buy the latest "Call of Honor: Medal of Duty", giving the publisher 100x their expenses while receiving the same poor quality turd they're happy to swollow every year?

Are you angry when the people behind Nicky Minaj or Justin Bieber or One Direction do the same?

 

You might not like the videos, but thousands of other people do.

 

 

 

As for comments on YouTube -- everyone knows that youtube comments are only 2nd to 4chan when it comes to useful discourse. It's not a medium for conversation or debate at all, so arguing that disabling comments there has stifled debate is ridiculous.

 

Second, when she launched her kick-starter, she was inundated with hate-mail from anti-feminist "gamer" dick-weeds, many of whom went so far as to make death threats against her. 4chan in particular had a field day with her. She has good reason to believe that youtube comments will be full of the worst kind of abuse. In fact, the main reason that she received so much funding was because the severity of this harassment turned it into a big news story, and many people decided to over-fund her in order to show their support and solidarity against the misogynist hordes attacking her!

 

If you really want to join the conversation, you're free to do so within the little feminist communities which the series is targeted at / made for / funded by, such as in the tumblsphere or facebook, or on forums like this.


Edited by Hodgman, 11 March 2013 - 12:27 AM.


#76 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4688

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:22 AM

So basically it seems that people here fall into two camps.

  • The video wasn't that good or thought-provoking.
  • I'm mad that I can't make $160k off a random idea that other people have done for free.

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#77 AniMerrill   Members   -  Reputation: 203

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:34 AM

Why on earth would you be angry.
A youtuber with an existing channel and a large following put their hand up and said, hey guys I want to do this silly little niche project, if I can make 6 grand off it then I'll break even and be able to forge ahead with no worries.
...
Then people in that niche threw 26x more money at her than she needed, making it a very successful business for her, no doubt funding her work for the next many years.
 
So fucking what? She didn't ask for 26x more than her expenses. She didn't promise to expand the project if more money was thrown at her. She has fans, they gave her a lot of money and it has nothing to do with you.
 
People who backed it knew who she was and what kind of content she produced. She was already making these kinds of feminist pop-culture videos at that point, and already had a fan-base -- it's these people that funded her, not you.
 
Are you angry when people win the lottery?
Are you angry when millions of people rush out to buy the latest "Call of Honor: Medal of Duty", giving the publisher 100x their expenses while receiving the same poor quality turd they're happy to swollow every year?
Are you angry when Nicky Minaj or Justin Bieber or One Direction do the same?

 
You know what I have to say to that... that's a pretty fucking reasonable argument. I kinda feel like a dick now, legitimately.
 
Although to be fair, I do feel angry when people win the lottery, etc etc etc. And its the same anger I feel about this. Its because I care about artistic integrity, I really do. And on top of that, for being a subject that she's really passionate about- one that's actually kind of important -she really gives a shallow delivery and brings nothing new to the table. So its like... in addition to just kind of getting an unfair flow of cash and doing nothing productive with it, she also poorly delivers about a social issue that deserves better discussion than her sensationalist style.
 
And why I'm angry: because gaming isn't just a hobby to me. Game development isn't a joke. I believe it is an art form. One that merits ACTUAL discussion about the problems of the media, how it can be improved, and how we can venture into parts of the human nature that could NEVER be touched upon by literature, film, music, or any other medium because video games are an active medium, not a passive one. Am I a little over defensive: yeah, I guess. But I'm not just some nerd or dork sitting in a dark room all day playing classic Mario or Sonic, I'm losing sleep for days and weeks at a time trying to make a goddamn piece of art that means something. And yeah, I'm a little pissed off because I can't just go on Kickstarter and be like "Oh hay guys, I have a VAGUE idea for this game its gonna be the best ever and deal with important human emotions and issues so give me MOONIES." No. I have to work 40 hours a week serving people coffee, then lose sleep all night because I'm programming a game. I get maybe one day a week to just unwind. Am I jealous or perhaps a little envious: yeah, I'll admit it. I just bought food for the first time in a month and a half, I think I kinda fucking deserve to be.
 
I just hope if it ever becomes time I want to use Kickstarter to, you know, actually do something productive people will still believe in the stuff being pitched to them.


AniMerrill, a.k.a. Ethan Merrill


#78 Icebone1000   Members   -  Reputation: 1050

Posted 11 March 2013 - 05:25 AM

Im angry because kickstarter is USA and UK only T_T.



#79 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 11 March 2013 - 06:11 AM

Im angry because kickstarter is USA and UK only T_T.

And Canada :D



#80 mdwh   Members   -  Reputation: 853

Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:53 AM

But the same way "save the princess" is contorted into sexism, I could contort "zombie apocalypse" as Christian bashing, "legendary hero" as racism and "small time criminal" as anti-capitalist. It's really just simplistic and lazy.

I'm not sure I really follow those other examples. And yes sure, there are sometimes other examples of bad stereotyping in games (or elsewhere), and it's right to criticise those too. "But other people are speeding too, Officer!" isn't a defence, or an argument against her view.
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